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Old 09-02-2012, 13:18   #81
Gpruitt54
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Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
I have to practically beat you over the head to get you to listen. At some point you have to decide if we are right or wrong. (we are not wrong). I mentioned way back on the first page the solution but you took your time listening. How many pages it going to take to explain you need a real scale?
I acknowledged that your recommendation to cycle the press seem to work. and I am not getting consistent weights. How does that put the scale at fault.

I will look for another scale, but the issue seemed to be related to how the disk opening was filling, or not.

As a noob to reloading, I want to learn by observation as well as from advice. Here observation points to the disk; and cycling the press helped properly fill the disk.

I am trying to be a smart ass. But I will ask questions if I run into issues. like this one. I hope that is OK on this forum.
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Old 09-02-2012, 13:20   #82
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Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
What is a real scale in your opinion? Then I can see if your opinions work within my budget. I have not seen any recommendations. If you have some, I would be happy to see them.

Please keep in mind, I am not loading competition rounds. So please consideration in any recommendations.
Dillon, Redding and RCBS Beam. Any reloading manufactures beam should do. No digital in your price range.
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Old 09-02-2012, 13:21   #83
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Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
I acknowledged that your recommendation to cycle the press seem to work. and I am not getting consistent weights. How does that put the scale at fault.

I will look for another scale, but the issue seemed to be related to how the disk opening was filling, or not.

As a noob to reloading, I want to learn by observation as well as from advice. Here observation points to the disk; and cycling the press helped properly fill the disk.

I am trying to be a smart ass. But I will ask questions if I run into issues. like this one. I hope that is OK on this forum.
Your scale is potentially dangerous. That should be enough to know you need a real scale.
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Old 09-02-2012, 13:24   #84
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Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
I acknowledged that your recommendation to cycle the press seem to work. and I am not getting consistent weights. How does that put the scale at fault.

I will look for another scale, but the issue seemed to be related to how the disk opening was filling, or not.

As a noob to reloading, I want to learn by observation as well as from advice. Here observation points to the disk; and cycling the press helped properly fill the disk.

I am trying to be a smart ass. But I will ask questions if I run into issues. like this one. I hope that is OK on this forum.
It's fine to ask questions like yours on here. It's better than just forging ahead and getting hurt. You're not coming across as a smart ass.

What we're trying to say is that we have tried every thing we can think of and all roads lead back to the scale.
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Old 09-02-2012, 13:26   #85
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This scale flat out works. Guys gripe about it because it is a bit slow to use and that can get tedious if you weigh lots of charges. For simple reloading, all that frequent weighing isn't necessary. You wiegh a lot of charges in the beginning while you get things sorted out. Once you find that say 0.46cc throws what you want, you just weigh once in a while to make sure things haven't somehow gotten weird. You could just weigh the first charge of a given loading session if you are using the same powder and cavity as last time, or even the last few years. I loaded for two years with the 0.30cc cavity and Bullseye powder. I went two years without using the scale.

So, the Dillon, RCBS, Lyman versions of the Ohaus beam scales are good stuff and are faster to use. If you have the money to buy one of them, get it and you will have a scale for life. But, if you are on a budget, like I was 27 years ago when I bought my Lee scale, you can get a good, safe, accurate scale. You could have blown up your $500.00 gun and your priceless eye(s). There have even been cases where the extractor has blown out so violently that it injured the person next to the shooter.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/712...grain-capacity
Wow! interesting. I intentionally avoided analog scales, thinking that a digital device would be superior flat out no matter how cheap the digital device would be.

OK, I will look for another scale.
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Old 09-02-2012, 13:40   #86
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Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
Your scale is potentially dangerous. That should be enough to know you need a real scale.
I am pulling the 30 rounds I've made so far, as we speak.

Thanks for the advice and recommendations. As with all things, there are lessons learned.

Once I have purchased another scale (probably a beam type). I will compare the weight readings against my cheap-o pocket scale.

That's just me!
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Old 09-02-2012, 13:50   #87
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Better safe then sorry. I don't know that your scale is off. I am glad to help you figure out how to make the LCT run consistently. But I would never load with a cheap digital. They simply have a very bad reputation.
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Last edited by Colorado4Wheel; 09-02-2012 at 13:50..
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Old 09-02-2012, 13:54   #88
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Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
What is a real scale in your opinion? Then I can see if your opinions work within my budget. I have not seen any recommendations. If you have some, I would be happy to see them.

Please keep in mind, I am not loading competition rounds. So please consideration in any recommendations.
I just bought a RCBS 5-0-2 for around $60. It seems to be a very nice scale and very easy to use. Look to see if your local Walmart has one.
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Old 09-02-2012, 15:13   #89
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There are no valid digital scales for less than $100 and the Dillon D-Terminator is $140 plus $15 for a protective case.

The Dillon beam scale is a quality unit at $70.

http://www.dillonprecision.com/conte...earchVar=scale

It is seriously true that the only thing helping to prevent a kaboom is your scale. It is also important to realize that gun powder is made from either nitroglycerine or nitrocellulose. Both of these like to go KABOOM!

Presses come and go, calibers come and go, but the scale can remain constant for a lifetime. There's no point in buying it twice.

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Last edited by F106 Fan; 09-02-2012 at 16:21..
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Old 09-02-2012, 15:43   #90
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$10 more and you get a Redding.
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Old 09-02-2012, 16:09   #91
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Thanks to all you guys for the advice, recommendations, and the patience.

I just returned from my local Cabela's sporting goods store. They were out of the Lee beam scales, and all the rest of the products were 69.99 and up. However they did have the Hornady GS-1500 for $40.00. So, I bought it.

For reference, I am using the ole .46 disk. I took 15 weight readings this time (20 is overkill), and here is what I got:

1)4.8, 2)4.9, 3)5.0, 4)5.0, 5)5.1, 6)5.1, 7)5.0, 8)4.9, 9)5.0, 10)5.0, 11)5.0, 12)4.9, 13)5.0, 14)5.0, 15)5.0

These readings are not really any different from the readings from my cheap-o Ebay special digital scale. If I had to say anything, I would suggest that the press cycling was the solution and that my cheap-o Ebay scale is just fine.

Then again, I have better peace of mind with the Hornady scale. This still leaves the question of how can a .46 Lee measuring disk drop a 5.0gn load of powder. Here we have a $9.00 no-name Ebay special and a $40.00 brand-name powder scale giving nearly identical readings.

Guys, I am totally new at this, so I am maybe too unaware, but WTF!
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Old 09-02-2012, 16:19   #92
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You were told in post 89 that there are no valid digital scales for less than $100. That fact hasn't changed.

I suspect that the vast majority of users of digital scales on this forum are using the Digital D-Terminator.

EDIT: BTW, do you have any check weights? I'm not talking about a "calibration" weight, you need a set of check weights. RCBS, among others, makes a set. This way you can check the scale with a weight that is similar to your charge weight.

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Last edited by F106 Fan; 09-02-2012 at 16:20..
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Old 09-02-2012, 16:46   #93
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You were told in post 89 that there are no valid digital scales for less than $100. That fact hasn't changed.

I suspect that the vast majority of users of digital scales on this forum are using the Digital D-Terminator.

EDIT: BTW, do you have any check weights? I'm not talking about a "calibration" weight, you need a set of check weights. RCBS, among others, makes a set. This way you can check the scale with a weight that is similar to your charge weight.

Richard
Yes, of course I recall the recommendation. I also indicated that the beam scale I was looking for was not in stock. So, I purchased something that could at the very least, confirm that my Ebay scale was wildly out to lunch. I also recall a suggestion on this thread to at the very least, buy something from one of the reloading equipment manufacturers, and that I did. I bought a Hornady digital powder measuring scale. I would say that Hornady understands the critical nature of what is being measured here, and that something sold by Hornady for this purpose can be trusted. I would say that I can trust a Hornady product more than the Ebay special. Yes?

Point is that, the El-Cheap-o Ebay scale and the purpose build powder measuring device are giving the same readings. I am also asking how that is?

I will also buy a set of "calibration weights". Thanks for that heads-up.
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Old 09-02-2012, 17:27   #94
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It would be worth the time to throw charges with all the cavities in the rotor. Make a chart of charge versus nominal size.

Richard
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Old 09-02-2012, 17:30   #95
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Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
Thanks to all you guys for the advice, recommendations, and the patience.

I just returned from my local Cabela's sporting goods store. They were out of the Lee beam scales, and all the rest of the products were 69.99 and up. However they did have the Hornady GS-1500 for $40.00. So, I bought it.

For reference, I am using the ole .46 disk. I took 15 weight readings this time (20 is overkill), and here is what I got:

1)4.8, 2)4.9, 3)5.0, 4)5.0, 5)5.1, 6)5.1, 7)5.0, 8)4.9, 9)5.0, 10)5.0, 11)5.0, 12)4.9, 13)5.0, 14)5.0, 15)5.0

These readings are not really any different from the readings from my cheap-o Ebay special digital scale. If I had to say anything, I would suggest that the press cycling was the solution and that my cheap-o Ebay scale is just fine.

Then again, I have better peace of mind with the Hornady scale. This still leaves the question of how can a .46 Lee measuring disk drop a 5.0gn load of powder. Here we have a $9.00 no-name Ebay special and a $40.00 brand-name powder scale giving nearly identical readings.

Guys, I am totally new at this, so I am maybe too unaware, but WTF!
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I've been so involved in responding to recommendations, I may have missed your contribution. In response to another suggestion, I tried using a different disk. As with the .43 and .40 disk, see the following so called impossible drops. Am I drunk or stupid; No. But I am interested in finding a solution to this issue. I look forward to any suggestions that can get me pass these issues. See the following test drops:

.49 auto desk. HP-38 Powder. Following are 20 separate drops using .49 auto desk and the weight of the powder drop. Before each powder drop, the scale was zeroed out with the case on the scale:
1)5.0, 2)5.6, 3)5.6, 4)5.6, 5)5.6, 6)5.8, 7)5.8, 8)5.8, 9)5.8, 10)5.8, 11)5.2, 12)5.2, 13)5.0, 14)5.0, 15)5.0, 16)5.0, 17)5.8, 18)5.6, 19)5.8, 20)5.8

.46 auto desk. HP-38 Powder. Following are 20 separate drops using .46 auto desk and the weight of the powder drop. Before each powder drop, the scale was zeroed out with the case on the scale:
1)5.0, 2)5.0, 3)5.2, 4)5.2, 5)5.0, 6)4.8, 7)4.8, 8)5.0, 9)5.0, 10)5.2, 11)5.2, 12)5.0, 13)5.0, 14)5.0, 15)5.0, 16)5.0, 17)5.0, 18)5.0, 19)5.2, 20)5.4
You were not getting the same readings with the old scale. The old scale gave you as high as 5.4 and the new one gives no more than 5.1 with the 0.46 cavity. Also, your old scale showed spreads of 0.8 grains with the 0.49cc cavity. That's huge.

I think your new scale shows that you get no more than 5.1 grains with the 0.46cc cavity. So, you have a ceiling that you can work with and feel safe. Try the 0,49cc and see how it does on the new scale.I bet none of them are 5.8 grains. Your new scale is much more consistent and realistic than your old one.

You are basically seeing 0.1 grain variance with your new scale. Your measure is throwing 5.0 and some are 4.9 and some are 5.1 so it's 0.1 on either side. That is acceptable as long as 5.1 isn't over the max charge.

Hodgdon shows a max of 5.3 with 231 and a 165 in 40SW. I would see what the next smaller cavity throws. It should be very close to 4.7 grains. You might get some at 4.8, even 4.9, but would still be well below the 5.3 max. The 0.43cc cavity should be perfect for a starting load.

While the 0.1 grain variance you are seeing is acceptable, I would argue that you could get even more consistency with 231 and that measure. That's where Colorado's advice comes in for getting things completely repeatable. Also, even the most accurate scale in the world can be effected by air currents. An open window, an HVAC system, can make the scale vary. That's why I like a beam scale. You can see the beam move when it should be still and you know something is going on that isn't right.

The short version is, your new scale is much more in line with the Lee chart, and the personal experience of people posting in this thread who have used 231 and the same measure you have.
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Old 09-02-2012, 17:37   #96
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New scale is better for sure. I would make a 5gr reference weight now so that you can see if it starts drifting in the future. It likely will and you will be back buying another scale in a year or two.
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Old 09-02-2012, 18:13   #97
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You were not getting the same readings with the old scale. The old scale gave you as high as 5.4 and the new one gives no more than 5.1 with the 0.46 cavity. Also, your old scale showed spreads of 0.8 grains with the 0.49cc cavity. That's huge.

I think your new scale shows that you get no more than 5.1 grains with the 0.46cc cavity. So, you have a ceiling that you can work with and feel safe. Try the 0,49cc and see how it does on the new scale.I bet none of them are 5.8 grains. Your new scale is much more consistent and realistic than your old one.

You are basically seeing 0.1 grain variance with your new scale. Your measure is throwing 5.0 and some are 4.9 and some are 5.1 so it's 0.1 on either side. That is acceptable as long as 5.1 isn't over the max charge.

Hodgdon shows a max of 5.3 with 231 and a 165 in 40SW. I would see what the next smaller cavity throws. It should be very close to 4.7 grains. You might get some at 4.8, even 4.9, but would still be well below the 5.3 max. The 0.43cc cavity should be perfect for a starting load.

While the 0.1 grain variance you are seeing is acceptable, I would argue that you could get even more consistency with 231 and that measure. That's where Colorado's advice comes in for getting things completely repeatable. Also, even the most accurate scale in the world can be effected by air currents. An open window, an HVAC system, can make the scale vary. That's why I like a beam scale. You can see the beam move when it should be still and you know something is going on that isn't right.

The short version is, your new scale is much more in line with the Lee chart, and the personal experience of people posting in this thread who have used 231 and the same measure you have.
Yes, you are correct. The new scale gives better performance.

Were recommending that I purchase some Win 231 powder? I see in my Lee manual that the Win231 and the HP-38 both suggest and same min and max loads for 165gn jacked bullets.

Regarding my environment, there are no vents that may have effected the scale.
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Old 09-02-2012, 18:21   #98
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Yes, you are correct. The new scale gives better performance.

Were recommending that I purchase some Win 231 powder? I see in my Lee manual that the Win231 and the HP-38 both suggest and same min and max loads for 165gn jacked bullets.

Regarding my environment, there are no vents that may have effected the scale.
Sorry, I lost track of which powder you were using. Winchester 231 and Hodgdon HP38 are the same powder packaged with different labels so I mixed up the names. You are fine with what you have, keep things simple and just use one powder until you have your sea legs under you. Sorry I added a little confusion there.
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Old 09-02-2012, 19:42   #99
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Sorry, I lost track of which powder you were using. Winchester 231 and Hodgdon HP38 are the same powder packaged with different labels so I mixed up the names. You are fine with what you have, keep things simple and just use one powder until you have your sea legs under you. Sorry I added a little confusion there.
Sure, no problem. I think this forum is a great place for new loaders like me, to learn from more experienced people. Thanks to you and all whose who has contributed to this thread over the last few days.

Based in my Lee manual, the .46 opening seems right in the bass park between min and max load recommendations. The next smaller opening would be .43. I will test some drops with that opening and see what I get.
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Old 09-02-2012, 19:43   #100
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Gpruitt54- There are 2 parallel threads running right now discussing scales - albiet mostly digital. One was begun by a poster who:
a) had a cheap scale
b) hadn't calibrated it in over a year, and
c) had no check-weights

Notice the title of the thread...

KB! In New G20. Ideas? What Next?
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1440353

The other thread gives advice for the purchase of a digital scale. Bookmark that thread for reference for your future digital purchase.

Digital scale recommendation for noob
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1440249
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