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Old 08-30-2012, 15:36   #41
PhotoFeller
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Originally Posted by sourdough44 View Post
Thanks for posting, it helps keep us on our toes.

Living in FL I have to ask why? 1200 fps with a 180 grn bullet seems like a bit much, though I don't reload for the 10mm.
I'm not hand loading yet, but I'm trying to learn from you guys and elsewhere. I have the popular manuals and read threads like this one with interest.

I am also wondering why one would push the envelope by loading to max. I'm not savvy enough to figure out the motivation, other than being adventurous. Is there a significant ballistic effectiveness benefit at the very top end?

I ask because it seems lots of hand loaders like to operate on the high end where small errors can have big consequences. Thanks.
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Old 08-30-2012, 16:16   #42
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I'm not hand loading yet, but I'm trying to learn from you guys and elsewhere. I have the popular manuals and read threads like this one with interest.

I am also wondering why one would push the envelope by loading to max. I'm not savvy enough to figure out the motivation, other than being adventurous. Is there a significant ballistic effectiveness benefit at the very top end?

I ask because it seems lots of hand loaders like to operate on the high end where small errors can have big consequences. Thanks.
Well, not all hand loaders push max loads for the caliber. I for one don't, and I know that others on this forum don't also. Yes, there are a few but not the majority. I, like Fred mentioned, am of the opinion that if the load isn't comfortable for the caliber, I'll go to a larger caliber. And if I need something with more footpound energy delivery than a 44Mag, I'm going to pick up a rifle.
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Old 08-30-2012, 16:44   #43
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A lot is Tim Allen syndrome.
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Old 08-30-2012, 16:56   #44
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I am also wondering why one would push the envelope by loading to max. I'm not savvy enough to figure out the motivation, other than being adventurous. Is there a significant ballistic effectiveness benefit at the very top end?

I ask because it seems lots of hand loaders like to operate on the high end where small errors can have big consequences. Thanks.
Maybe for the same reason I used to enjoy driving muscle cars flat out! If it had 400 HP, why let 300 of them just lope along?

Fortunately for me, I survived the muscle car era (many didn't) and I have no interest in punching a hole in paper with an ever faster bullet.

I think you will find that the majority of folks on this forum stay well away from max loads. If you really NEED a faster bullet, choose a different powder.

Looking at the Hornady manual (8th Ed) for the 180 gr HP-XTP, notice that, in theory (but not practice, apparently) 12.0 gr of AA-7 is a max load and delivers 1200 fps. Changing to AA-9 and using 14.4 gr will theoretically deliver the same velocity while staying 0.5 gr away from the max charge of 14.9 gr which will, theoretically, deliver 1250 fps. Pick the right powder! Stay away from max!

Being a wimp at heart, I would aim for 1050-1100 fps and call it a day.

Richard
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Old 08-30-2012, 17:06   #45
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A lot is Tim Allen syndrome.
Home Improvement was going to be two stars in a lovely adult romance. It turned out to be this show about the ape-man who blows up ****.

TIM ALLEN, Mr. Showbiz, 1996

Sometimes you get the sense that the Creator is getting to that point of "Yeah, we might have to reboot."

TIM ALLEN, Esquire, Nov. 2011

Richard
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Old 08-30-2012, 17:54   #46
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
Maybe for the same reason I used to enjoy driving muscle cars flat out! If it had 400 HP, why let 300 of them just lope along?

Fortunately for me, I survived the muscle car era (many didn't) and I have no interest in punching a hole in paper with an ever faster bullet.

I think you will find that the majority of folks on this forum stay well away from max loads. If you really NEED a faster bullet, choose a different powder.

Looking at the Hornady manual (8th Ed) for the 180 gr HP-XTP, notice that, in theory (but not practice, apparently) 12.0 gr of AA-7 is a max load and delivers 1200 fps. Changing to AA-9 and using 14.4 gr will theoretically deliver the same velocity while staying 0.5 gr away from the max charge of 14.9 gr which will, theoretically, deliver 1250 fps. Pick the right powder! Stay away from max!

Being a wimp at heart, I would aim for 1050-1100 fps and call it a day.

Richard
...and cross check that HDY data with the Accurate data before taking another step! ;-)
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Old 08-30-2012, 18:08   #47
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...and cross check that HDY data with the Accurate data before taking another step! ;-)
I'm not 100% convinced that the Hornady data is wrong. Yes, it exceeds the Accurate data, but that doesn't make it wrong. Just 'less conserative' perhaps. Speer #14 has the same maximum load while Lyman 49th shows an 11.5 gr max.

I'm not ruling out an error from your scale and I'm not sure about the wisdom of crimping a straightwall pistol case. Then again, I don't know how, or by how much, the bullet was crimped. I'm not ruling out the difference between a Hornady XTP and a Montana Gold JHP in terms of sidewall friction (or bearing surface). I'm also wondering about the number of lighter loads shot in multiple round groups that were used to work up to the max load. I'm also not willing to rule out 'operator error'. I don't know how you adjust your scale for tare weight. On the Dillon, I hit the zero button with an empty pan on the platform. From then on, I am only measuring the added powder. I don't have to zero again.

I am also not willing to rule out a bullet setback during chambering. It goes back to that 'crimp' question. Crimping a straightwall pistol case reduces neck tension making it easier for a bullet to be set back while chambering.

And the rounds missed the plate. What's that about? A few extra FPS certainly didn't change the trajectory. I wonder if the bullet was driven so hard it just disintegrated.

And so on...

Richard
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Last edited by F106 Fan; 08-30-2012 at 18:10..
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Old 08-30-2012, 18:16   #48
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And I don't know if the rounds would pass a 'kerplunk' test. The bullet should not be impacting the rifling and I don't know enough about the MG bullet profile to know whether your OAL was reasonable.

Take the barrel out of the gun and drop a round in the chamber. Twist it around and convince yourself that the only thing adding friction is the case mouth against the ridge at the end of the chamber. The bullet should not be dragging on the rifling.

Richard
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Old 08-30-2012, 18:21   #49
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I'm not hand loading yet, but I'm trying to learn from you guys and elsewhere. I have the popular manuals and read threads like this one with interest.

I am also wondering why one would push the envelope by loading to max. I'm not savvy enough to figure out the motivation, other than being adventurous. Is there a significant ballistic effectiveness benefit at the very top end?

I ask because it seems lots of hand loaders like to operate on the high end where small errors can have big consequences. Thanks.
Good for you! That's the smart way to go about it. Ready, study, and learn. Keep wondering why people push the envelope when there's nothing to gain. But go about it the smart way, yourself. And finally, keep your attitude about small errors and big consequences. That awareness will go a long way toward keeping you safe.
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Old 08-30-2012, 18:27   #50
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This whole thing about observing flattened primers but continuing to shoot that load just baffles me. I have established sub-max loads that I shoot for my calibers and I still habitually pick up the cases and examine them while at the range. I don't expect to see anything worrisome but there is zero doubt in my mind that I'd unload the gun and put it away if I saw anything out of the ordinary. Why ignore a sign that you knew meant trouble?

I don't ask this to be argumentative or to scold. I just tend to be curious about human behavior.
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Old 08-30-2012, 18:38   #51
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I have a hard time seeing a load published in the Hornady manual, if followed, blowing up a gun.

Also, the OP's belief that the previously fired rounds having the "typical Glock bulge" being "normal" makes me a little leary of his whole approach to reloading. Brass bulging is the last step before brass blowing out, which is what we have here. Regardless of the cause or the gun, bulged brass is a "clue" to stop what you are doing. In all my years reloading, I have only had two situations that produced bulged brass and once recognized, those situations were stopped.
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Old 08-30-2012, 18:49   #52
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I have a hard time seeing a load published in the Hornady manual, if followed, blowing up a gun.

Also, the OP's belief that the previously fired rounds having the "typical Glock bulge" being "normal" makes me a little leary of his whole approach to reloading. Brass bulging is the last step before brass blowing out, which is what we have here. Regardless of the cause or the gun, bulged brass is a "clue" to stop what you are doing. In all my years reloading, I have only had two situations that produced bulged brass and once recognized, those situations were stopped.
More than a clue! IF the brass is bulging, that load is over pressure for that gun, REGARDLESS of where the data came from.
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Old 08-30-2012, 19:16   #53
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Any of the brass look like this.

Reloading
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Old 08-30-2012, 19:22   #54
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...And the rounds missed the plate. What's that about? A few extra FPS certainly didn't change the trajectory. I wonder if the bullet was driven so hard it just disintegrated.

Richard
I've dug completely intact MG CMJ bullets out of the impact berm that looked like I could reload them again - some still partially shiny gold (sans a few rifling marks). They're pretty tough.
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Old 08-30-2012, 19:32   #55
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More than a clue! IF the brass is bulging, that load is over pressure for that gun, REGARDLESS of where the data came from.
I guess that depends upon what we mean by "bulge." Even bunny toot loads shot in a Glock barrel will give a Glock belly on the brass. In my opinion, those types of "bulges" are certainly not of excessive pressure for that gun. I wouldn't consider that bulged -- although others do and won't shoot out of a Glock barrel for that reason. I personally would not shoot a load in a KKM barrel that I deemed to be unsafe in a Glock barrel.

Having worked with A7 in 10mm, I like it. It is a good powder. However, 12.0 grains seems pretty warm to me. (Hornady has had at least one recent correction for A7 powder in the 10mm section, plus their 180 gr 800-X load gave excessive pressure symptoms below max). Accordingly, your advice about reviewing several different published loads is spot on, and part of my practice.

So take what I believe to be a fairly stout published load with little margin for oops. Combine that with a decent probability of a powder-weighing error for reasons already described, and bad things can happen.

As has been mentioned before, and I will echo, setup your scale; verify the scale settings with check weights, and carry on. A check weight set like is available from RCBS will give weight combinations to the 1/2 of a grain. That is a lot closer than a 100 gr check weight when tenths are so meaningful.

Accurate no. 9 is more suitable to get to 180 @ 1200. Some like Longshot or 800-X too, but I can't get there in a G20 without going over book - any book.
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Old 08-30-2012, 19:52   #56
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My full power loads in my G20 don't bulge the brass. The brass does expand to the size of the chamber. But that is normal.

This thread is a cautionary tale. I would bet that the OP's load data from Hornady is from a longer barrel and also from a test barrel not a real gun. Trying to get the same velocity as the book in G20 is just asking for trouble like the OP experienced.
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Old 08-30-2012, 20:45   #57
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For what it's worth, get you some Power Pistol, as 8.5gr gets you a tad over 1200 fps from a G20, and it's below book max. Great shooter too! Another thing, I personally have never got anywhere near claimed velocity with any Accurate Arms powder out of any cartridge.

There is often a rather large discrepancy between manufacturers data and 3rd party data. Always lean on the side of safety, it beats the pants off the alternative. Additionally, it's not uncommon for guys to work up loads in an aftermarket barrel that are really too hot to be honest, it's not an entirely safe habit to get into. You can get away with some things with an aftermarket bbl, but stay away from nuclear stuff in the stock setup.
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Old 08-30-2012, 21:29   #58
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I am also wondering why one would push the envelope by loading to max. I'm not savvy enough to figure out the motivation, other than being adventurous. Is there a significant ballistic effectiveness benefit at the very top end?
It is about finding limits. How slow can I go? How fast can I go? How heavy and how light?

But understand when doing this, I am loading one round at time with a scale that has proven time and time again to be accurate at delivering EXACTLY the amount of power I requested. I read and then bag my brass in zip lock bags with a tag so I know the day, temp, other weather conditions, powder, batch....... Then put all the data into a spreadsheet to analyze it when I can not get to the range.

Then there are the gel test.....

This is not a task for a bulk reloader on a progressive press.
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Old 08-30-2012, 21:31   #59
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Everyone is using a different book of course... but I found AA7 and power pistol to produce the same velocity using Layman's Max load. Neither hit 1200 fps but I was using less powder.
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Old 08-30-2012, 23:00   #60
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I guess that depends upon what we mean by "bulge." Even bunny toot loads shot in a Glock barrel will give a Glock belly on the brass. In my opinion, those types of "bulges" are certainly not of excessive pressure for that gun. I wouldn't consider that bulged -- although others do and won't shoot out of a Glock barrel for that reason. I personally would not shoot a load in a KKM barrel that I deemed to be unsafe in a Glock barrel.

.
Just not true. I have fired a lot of rounds in a stock G20 bbl, Delta10 & 1006 over the years, none of my brass has any bulge what so ever. So if low pressure loads are bulging the brass, then something is wrong w/ the bbl. Bulged brass, any caliber, is unacceptable risk for little to no gain IMO.
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Last edited by fredj338; 08-30-2012 at 23:01..
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