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Old 08-30-2012, 10:12   #26
fredj338
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The thing you & many reloaders forget is pressures rarely build in a linear fashion. The closer you get to max, the steeper the pressure curve. A chron will sometims show this as a flattening of vel increase w/ every 1/10gr or a wild spike, both can mean excessive pressures are around the corner. Working in anything but 1/10gr increments as you approach & go past max is just foolish, even with slower powders like AA#7. Getting 1200fps W/ a 180gr anything is safely done. Maybe not w/ AA#7 in your gun, but maybe. Longshot, BlueDot, AA#9, all will get 1200fps w/o pressure issues.
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:38   #27
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The idea of using a Max load, not calibrating the scale, seeing flat primers and then buying a KKM barrel makes my head hurt. Stop loading your 10mm like it's a 41mag.
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:52   #28
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Originally Posted by sellersm View Post
Is there any chance you weren't actually using AA #7 as your powder, but had BD instead? 12.0gr of BD in a 180gr JHP sounds like it could be trouble...
No. The BD loads I referred to were made and shot early last week. I never have but one powder on the bench at once. I clean my powder hopper before changing powders.
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:08   #29
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Thanks to all with helpful comments and suggestions. Most of what I've learned here (and hopefully some others too) can mostly be summed up in the below article which I would have like to have read previously. Also, I never realized that dig scales needed so much attn.
Many here address the non-linear nature of component changes. Reading pressure signs on brass and chrono readings are unreliable, in terms of the edge of max loading and pressure. Have a look... http://kwk.us/chronographs.html

HTH...
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:21   #30
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
The thing you & many reloaders forget is pressures rarely build in a linear fashion. The closer you get to max, the steeper the pressure curve. A chron will sometims show this as a flattening of vel increase w/ every 1/10gr or a wild spike, both can mean excessive pressures are around the corner. Working in anything but 1/10gr increments as you approach & go past max is just foolish, even with slower powders like AA#7. Getting 1200fps W/ a 180gr anything is safely done. Maybe not w/ AA#7 in your gun, but maybe. Longshot, BlueDot, AA#9, all will get 1200fps w/o pressure issues.
I hear all that and agree. But i didn't think I was going beyond max at the time based on the data I was using. I had no desire to load past max.
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:36   #31
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Originally Posted by shotgunred View Post
On another note. Try to seat a mag in your gun. Normally when a glock KB's they blow a chunk off the mag release. It no big deal and you can get a new one from lonewolf for a couple of bucks.

Point two. Let me introduce you to the shotgunred philosophy of reloading. Start low. Check for accuracy. when you find a load that is accurate stop. There is nothing to be gained from going higher at that point. You just put more strain on your arm joints and your gun. You are not going to find a good medium burner out there that will not be accurate load at a lot less than max load. If you want more bark and to feel more recoil switch to power pistol.
Will do on the mag release. I DCR'd my G20 and checked for cracks and any damage. Beyond X-raying it, I don't see any anomalies. I used the checklist from the Glock Armorers book to make sure I didn't skip anything.
If/when I try to work up to max loads again, I will just take the mag out after chambering a rnd from it. But I agree w/ what you say about stopping at the accuracy load. I do that with rifle loads.
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Old 08-30-2012, 12:17   #32
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Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
The idea of using a Max load, not calibrating the scale, seeing flat primers and then buying a KKM barrel makes my head hurt. Stop loading your 10mm like it's a 41mag.
I'm glad you bring that up.
Agree or not, there IS a perception out there...and in here... that the 10mm is comparable to a "41 mag auto". I've seen it more times than I can count and from reputable pubs, not just in forums. It's my opinion that this is a DANGEROUS image to project... especially in an autoloader like a G20, etc. (not saying G20 and/or 10mm is inherently dangerous) Maybe some experienced 10mm shooters/reloaders 'know better', but a guy like me interested in getting involved with 10mm autos, for whatever reason, see this pervasive ideal everywhere and start to percieve it as an 'auto-mag' capable of handling 'nuke' loads. Search 'nuke' in any 10mm forum and tell me I'm wrong.
Yeah yeah...I know they come with the usual 'reduce and work up carefully' warnings. That's cool and responsible. But C'mon... we're Americans! We developed and exploded the 1st atom bombs! We push the edge...
Seriously, I get the importance of careful load workups. And I'm learning just like everyone here. I just think careful consideration should be made by SOME who present the 10mm auto to be more than what it is. For instance, ..."that's a bunny fart load. To get the real feel for what a 10mm can do"....<fill in the blank>.
Let me stop some of you who are thinking I'm putting the blame for my KB. I'm not. I made my choices and I'm grateful for only minor consequences and major lessons. Also I'm MAJORLY appreciative to those of you who offer constructive tips, pointed out some rookie mistakes (e.g. scale quality/calibrations) and those with a thought to try to help.
I'm just throwing these thoughts out there b/c I feel they need to be said as a caution to 10mm loaders, esp. noobs... like myself.
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Old 08-30-2012, 13:13   #33
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Originally Posted by pasky2112 View Post
I hear all that and agree. But i didn't think I was going beyond max at the time based on the data I was using. I had no desire to load past max.
Then you need more than one source. When working a new powder/bullet/caliber, 3 printed sources are useful, use the avg from all three as starting & max. Work to the avg max, exceed that only if there are no pressure signs. Understand what your chrono is telling you. Work in smaller powder increments so you can see the changes more readily, 1/10gr max for small cases like the 10mm. Once the vel flattens or spikes, you are probably at max for that gun & load. Adding more powder only raises pressures.
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Old 08-30-2012, 13:37   #34
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
You need check weights for your digital scale. A calibration weight of 100 grams (1543 grains) just doesn't mean much when you're splitting hairs at 10 to 12 grains. Here's a selection:
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSe...=check+weights

Just for info, which scale are you using? Digital scales come in various quality levels and only the Dillon D-Terminator or similarly priced units are good enough. Fred has stated before that there are no good digital scales less than $100 and I think inflation has probably bumped that up a bit.

As to checking for 'pressure signs': Read starting at page 59 of Speer #14. Their point of view is that by the time you can see evidence of overpressure, you are at least 20% above max. And if they can't read pressure signs, I certainly can't!

The flattened primer thing might be important if Federal primers didn't flatten in a wind storm and others have to be mashed with a freight train. Then too, primers are extruded into the striker slot on Glocks whether the loads are hot or not. I don't think measuring the height of the extrusion will be a standard test anytime soon!

I'm real curious about the scale. A little booboo in the reading and a charge that exceeds the powder manufacturer's recommendataion could very well be the cause of the KB.

Richard
Thanks Richard. Here is the scale I've been using. http://brianenos.com/store/be.scale_be.html I got it when I bought my 550b. You know...the pkg deal. As a newbie, I figured Brian Enos was a good adviser for starting out reloading pistol.

I took this to be an accurate scale for pistol reloading...(+/- .1gr) like other more expensive ones. In hindsight (again) this seems to have been a mistake to count on this scale and using 2 check wts. But I had no way of knowing that at the time. I wasn't a benchrest rifle loader looking to get .125 MOA. I zero it with a check weight each use. I have to zero with the powder pan/funnel I use. 96.2grns. So, you see where I'm coming from? Why would I have thought this scale was insufficient?
I know there's another thread on scales now, but it seems like the RCBS 750 is getting some pretty BAD reviews lately for QC and overall service/support? Any thoughts on the Dillon? http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/con...ectronic_Scale

Thanks again.

- Dave
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Old 08-30-2012, 13:57   #35
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Then you need more than one source. When working a new powder/bullet/caliber, 3 printed sources are useful, use the avg from all three as starting & max. Work to the avg max, exceed that only if there are no pressure signs. Understand what your chrono is telling you. Work in smaller powder increments so you can see the changes more readily, 1/10gr max for small cases like the 10mm. Once the vel flattens or spikes, you are probably at max for that gun & load. Adding more powder only raises pressures.
I like the avg powder charge idea. Great point. I have read multiple resources, Speer, Sierra, Hdy, Hodgdon...powder manuf. of all kinds. It seems the more I read, the more conflicts there are. So, I just cherrypicked one to settle the differences (bullets, primers, cases, bbl len, twist rate, powders)... mistake in hindsight.
Generally speaking, trying to dev a load to max all the time is a hairy and unpredictable proposition. Maybe I'll take up a safer hobby like tornado chasing... ;-) But seriously, perhaps loading for sub-max accuracy is a better long term game IMHO.
Thanks again!

- Dave
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Old 08-30-2012, 14:13   #36
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I would be curious to know the complete load data you used. Including FPS, Barrel Length, Type of gun/fixture used. Etc.

Edit, As in what does the book say? Not what you used.
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Old 08-30-2012, 14:24   #37
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I'm glad you bring that up.
Agree or not, there IS a perception out there...and in here... that the 10mm is comparable to a "41 mag auto". I've seen it more times than I can count and from reputable pubs, not just in forums. It's my opinion that this is a DANGEROUS image to project... especially in an autoloader like a G20, etc. (not saying G20 and/or 10mm is inherently dangerous) Maybe some experienced 10mm shooters/reloaders 'know better', but a guy like me interested in getting involved with 10mm autos, for whatever reason, see this pervasive ideal everywhere and start to percieve it as an 'auto-mag' capable of handling 'nuke' loads. Search 'nuke' in any 10mm forum and tell me I'm wrong.
Yeah yeah...I know they come with the usual 'reduce and work up carefully' warnings. That's cool and responsible. But C'mon... we're Americans! We developed and exploded the 1st atom bombs! We push the edge...
Seriously, I get the importance of careful load workups. And I'm learning just like everyone here. I just think careful consideration should be made by SOME who present the 10mm auto to be more than what it is. For instance, ..."that's a bunny fart load. To get the real feel for what a 10mm can do"....<fill in the blank>.
Let me stop some of you who are thinking I'm putting the blame for my KB. I'm not. I made my choices and I'm grateful for only minor consequences and major lessons. Also I'm MAJORLY appreciative to those of you who offer constructive tips, pointed out some rookie mistakes (e.g. scale quality/calibrations) and those with a thought to try to help.
I'm just throwing these thoughts out there b/c I feel they need to be said as a caution to 10mm loaders, esp. noobs... like myself.
One of the things you will frequently see posted on THIS responsible forum is the advice to ignore 'Internet Loads', including our own. One of the things we rarely do is give load data to someone who we preceive hasn't bought a loading manual. We may point him to the various manufacturers' web sites but it's not often we just outright spec loads. If the OP is asking to compare something and he appears to have already done most of the homework, sure, everybody will jump right in. Personally, I tend to parrot what I have in publications and Hornady still thinks 12 gr is ok for your load. Hm...

There seem to be a lot of problems with new reloaders vs .40 S&W and 10mm. I think that's because they are both high pressure cartridges and a little extra powder goes a long way. I don't recall reading about a .45 ACP KB that wasn't obviously a double charge but it's a low pressure cartridge and maybe it's more forgiving. Not that I push the max...

There's a lot of really bad ideas on the Internet. Around here you will find a bunch of long time reloaders who really know what's going on. BTW, I'm not one of them...

Richard
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Old 08-30-2012, 14:38   #38
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Thanks Richard. Here is the scale I've been using. http://brianenos.com/store/be.scale_be.html I got it when I bought my 550b. You know...the pkg deal. As a newbie, I figured Brian Enos was a good adviser for starting out reloading pistol.

I took this to be an accurate scale for pistol reloading...(+/- .1gr) like other more expensive ones. In hindsight (again) this seems to have been a mistake to count on this scale and using 2 check wts. But I had no way of knowing that at the time. I wasn't a benchrest rifle loader looking to get .125 MOA. I zero it with a check weight each use. I have to zero with the powder pan/funnel I use. 96.2grns. So, you see where I'm coming from? Why would I have thought this scale was insufficient?
I know there's another thread on scales now, but it seems like the RCBS 750 is getting some pretty BAD reviews lately for QC and overall service/support? Any thoughts on the Dillon? http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/con...ectronic_Scale

Thanks again.

- Dave
The problem I have with calibration weights is that they are 100 times heavier than what I want to weigh. It would be like using my 150 ft-lb 1/2" drive torque wrench to mount a rifle scope.

It's important to calibrate the scale but it is even more important to check it against something in the range of what you are measuring. I will be measuring 42.2 grains of IMR 4064 for some .308 loads. I will be checking my scale against a 50 gr check weight. I probably won't be calibrating it at all.

Two different processes with two different goals but it's the check process that keeps me from violently disassembling my rifle.

A few months ago I was at a range when the range master showed me a rifle barrel that was opened up just like you see in the Porky The Pig cartoons except turned the other way around. It looked like some kind of flowering plant. I have forgotten what he said went wrong with the owner's reloading but the result was VIOLENT!

One thing I do know: That scale you have doesn't come with a wind screen and I know from experience that wind currents can mess up the readings. Typically, the powder will weigh heavy so the load is actually lighter but I don't think it is guaranteed.

I strongly recommend you buy the Dillon D-Terminator. We have another thread on digital scales and a large number of the long time reloaders are using that scale. As am I...

Richard
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Old 08-30-2012, 14:54   #39
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This is the Enos scale I have - but it's really backed up with frequent calibration, check weights, and a RCBS Chargemaster. Call me paranoid.
http://brianenos.com/store/be.scale_hp.html

I also check brass and primers frquently - but Federal primers always look flattened to me, so I've asked a few of our club's reloaders who have examined my shot brass and they all claim there is no problem.

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Old 08-30-2012, 15:18   #40
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You mostly right but as I stated "Powder charges are not linear" meaning there is no graph that says 0.1 g equal 100 fps through the range. Even if you have max data that is reliable, cross checked, etc. That data is not for your particular gun, barrel length of type in MOST instances. Fast powders in particular can had sudden pressure spikes near max ranges with only slight variances as you develop you load.
This all has proved to be true. I posted this b4 but in light of what you're stating, I think it bears repeating and shows some details of how slight deviations in loads...any load... can have unpredictable results. When that happens at the edge of trying to work up a max load...well, it can have violent results. Even the pro's blow a tube or chamber b/c they missed 'a sign'. They're not likely holding it in front of their faces, though.
http://kwk.us/chronographs.html
Don't let the 'chronographs' in the URL throw you. It addresses results of loads with the slightest variable.
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Old 08-30-2012, 15:36   #41
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Thanks for posting, it helps keep us on our toes.

Living in FL I have to ask why? 1200 fps with a 180 grn bullet seems like a bit much, though I don't reload for the 10mm.
I'm not hand loading yet, but I'm trying to learn from you guys and elsewhere. I have the popular manuals and read threads like this one with interest.

I am also wondering why one would push the envelope by loading to max. I'm not savvy enough to figure out the motivation, other than being adventurous. Is there a significant ballistic effectiveness benefit at the very top end?

I ask because it seems lots of hand loaders like to operate on the high end where small errors can have big consequences. Thanks.
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Old 08-30-2012, 16:16   #42
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I'm not hand loading yet, but I'm trying to learn from you guys and elsewhere. I have the popular manuals and read threads like this one with interest.

I am also wondering why one would push the envelope by loading to max. I'm not savvy enough to figure out the motivation, other than being adventurous. Is there a significant ballistic effectiveness benefit at the very top end?

I ask because it seems lots of hand loaders like to operate on the high end where small errors can have big consequences. Thanks.
Well, not all hand loaders push max loads for the caliber. I for one don't, and I know that others on this forum don't also. Yes, there are a few but not the majority. I, like Fred mentioned, am of the opinion that if the load isn't comfortable for the caliber, I'll go to a larger caliber. And if I need something with more footpound energy delivery than a 44Mag, I'm going to pick up a rifle.
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Old 08-30-2012, 16:44   #43
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A lot is Tim Allen syndrome.
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Old 08-30-2012, 16:56   #44
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I am also wondering why one would push the envelope by loading to max. I'm not savvy enough to figure out the motivation, other than being adventurous. Is there a significant ballistic effectiveness benefit at the very top end?

I ask because it seems lots of hand loaders like to operate on the high end where small errors can have big consequences. Thanks.
Maybe for the same reason I used to enjoy driving muscle cars flat out! If it had 400 HP, why let 300 of them just lope along?

Fortunately for me, I survived the muscle car era (many didn't) and I have no interest in punching a hole in paper with an ever faster bullet.

I think you will find that the majority of folks on this forum stay well away from max loads. If you really NEED a faster bullet, choose a different powder.

Looking at the Hornady manual (8th Ed) for the 180 gr HP-XTP, notice that, in theory (but not practice, apparently) 12.0 gr of AA-7 is a max load and delivers 1200 fps. Changing to AA-9 and using 14.4 gr will theoretically deliver the same velocity while staying 0.5 gr away from the max charge of 14.9 gr which will, theoretically, deliver 1250 fps. Pick the right powder! Stay away from max!

Being a wimp at heart, I would aim for 1050-1100 fps and call it a day.

Richard
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Old 08-30-2012, 17:06   #45
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A lot is Tim Allen syndrome.
Home Improvement was going to be two stars in a lovely adult romance. It turned out to be this show about the ape-man who blows up ****.

TIM ALLEN, Mr. Showbiz, 1996

Sometimes you get the sense that the Creator is getting to that point of "Yeah, we might have to reboot."

TIM ALLEN, Esquire, Nov. 2011

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Old 08-30-2012, 17:54   #46
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Maybe for the same reason I used to enjoy driving muscle cars flat out! If it had 400 HP, why let 300 of them just lope along?

Fortunately for me, I survived the muscle car era (many didn't) and I have no interest in punching a hole in paper with an ever faster bullet.

I think you will find that the majority of folks on this forum stay well away from max loads. If you really NEED a faster bullet, choose a different powder.

Looking at the Hornady manual (8th Ed) for the 180 gr HP-XTP, notice that, in theory (but not practice, apparently) 12.0 gr of AA-7 is a max load and delivers 1200 fps. Changing to AA-9 and using 14.4 gr will theoretically deliver the same velocity while staying 0.5 gr away from the max charge of 14.9 gr which will, theoretically, deliver 1250 fps. Pick the right powder! Stay away from max!

Being a wimp at heart, I would aim for 1050-1100 fps and call it a day.

Richard
...and cross check that HDY data with the Accurate data before taking another step! ;-)
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Old 08-30-2012, 18:08   #47
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...and cross check that HDY data with the Accurate data before taking another step! ;-)
I'm not 100% convinced that the Hornady data is wrong. Yes, it exceeds the Accurate data, but that doesn't make it wrong. Just 'less conserative' perhaps. Speer #14 has the same maximum load while Lyman 49th shows an 11.5 gr max.

I'm not ruling out an error from your scale and I'm not sure about the wisdom of crimping a straightwall pistol case. Then again, I don't know how, or by how much, the bullet was crimped. I'm not ruling out the difference between a Hornady XTP and a Montana Gold JHP in terms of sidewall friction (or bearing surface). I'm also wondering about the number of lighter loads shot in multiple round groups that were used to work up to the max load. I'm also not willing to rule out 'operator error'. I don't know how you adjust your scale for tare weight. On the Dillon, I hit the zero button with an empty pan on the platform. From then on, I am only measuring the added powder. I don't have to zero again.

I am also not willing to rule out a bullet setback during chambering. It goes back to that 'crimp' question. Crimping a straightwall pistol case reduces neck tension making it easier for a bullet to be set back while chambering.

And the rounds missed the plate. What's that about? A few extra FPS certainly didn't change the trajectory. I wonder if the bullet was driven so hard it just disintegrated.

And so on...

Richard
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Old 08-30-2012, 18:16   #48
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And I don't know if the rounds would pass a 'kerplunk' test. The bullet should not be impacting the rifling and I don't know enough about the MG bullet profile to know whether your OAL was reasonable.

Take the barrel out of the gun and drop a round in the chamber. Twist it around and convince yourself that the only thing adding friction is the case mouth against the ridge at the end of the chamber. The bullet should not be dragging on the rifling.

Richard
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Old 08-30-2012, 18:21   #49
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I'm not hand loading yet, but I'm trying to learn from you guys and elsewhere. I have the popular manuals and read threads like this one with interest.

I am also wondering why one would push the envelope by loading to max. I'm not savvy enough to figure out the motivation, other than being adventurous. Is there a significant ballistic effectiveness benefit at the very top end?

I ask because it seems lots of hand loaders like to operate on the high end where small errors can have big consequences. Thanks.
Good for you! That's the smart way to go about it. Ready, study, and learn. Keep wondering why people push the envelope when there's nothing to gain. But go about it the smart way, yourself. And finally, keep your attitude about small errors and big consequences. That awareness will go a long way toward keeping you safe.
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Old 08-30-2012, 18:27   #50
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This whole thing about observing flattened primers but continuing to shoot that load just baffles me. I have established sub-max loads that I shoot for my calibers and I still habitually pick up the cases and examine them while at the range. I don't expect to see anything worrisome but there is zero doubt in my mind that I'd unload the gun and put it away if I saw anything out of the ordinary. Why ignore a sign that you knew meant trouble?

I don't ask this to be argumentative or to scold. I just tend to be curious about human behavior.
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10mm 180gr, aa#7, g20, kb!, starline
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42