[Ceapea]

I just bought some Remington frangible 9mm bullets from Midway. For being 100gr, they are large, like a 147gr 9mm. So, light bullets usually use more of a charge to make up for greater case volume. But these babies are pretty big/long, taking up much more case volume than a lead 95gr-100gr bullet.
Are there any sources for load data for these? I have 5 loading manuals plus 7 "one book, one caliber" (or something like that) books and none of them mention frangible bullets.
I was thinking about contacting Remington too.

Thanks.

[michael e]

What powder are you using? Hodgens has responded fast every time I have emailed them about a bullet I couldn't find data on with there powder.

[Njanear]

I bought 2K of those to load up myself. My current powder choice just happens to be Ramshot ZIP and wouldn't you know it... Ramshot DOES happen to have loads for the Frangible bullets out there; I guess I lucked out.

Now to get some time to load some up and see how they actually shoot.

[Ceapea]

Originally Posted by michael e

What powder are you using? Hodgens has responded fast every time I have emailed them about a bullet I couldn't find data on with there powder.

I just found some load data on their site.
I have 231, Unique, Universal, Titegroup, Bullseye, WSF, WST
Red Dot, and several others. Several of them are listed at Hodgens site.

Thanks.

[HAMMERHEAD]

Sinterfire (probably the maker) recommends using data for a jacketed bullet of equal length, not equal weight, to compensate for the low density/long length of the frangible bullets.

Looking at Hodgdon's data, their starting loads will be too slow to cycle your gun, so be prepared to work up. In fact their max load with Titegroup seems very low according to my results.

I have loaded quite a few of them in 9mm, mostly with Titegroup. If you want my loads/results PM me or ask here.

[dkf]

I bought a bunch of the 100gr Frangible for .357sig from Midway also.

I figure I will just use the data already use for my .357sig loads with 124gr XTP bullets, start with the minimum powder charge, seat the bullet to 1.140" OAL and work the load up.

Bullet Length

124gr XTP : .572"
147gr XTP : .655"
100gr Rem Frangible : .618"

[dkf]

I went to load up some of these 100gr bullets in .357sig today. Thus far it looks like the profile of the bullet sucks for .357sig. The driving band is not up far enough towards the point of the bullet so it affects neck tension. Even with an OAL of 1.150" (.010" over SAAMI max) it still is not right.

The bullets Remington loads into their UMC .357sig loads is also the wrong profile. I have come to conclusion that Remington can't grasp what type of bullet the .357sig needs. Too bad I ordered 3000 of these bullets. I guess I will have to see how far I can go with the OAL.

[Ceapea]

Originally Posted by dkf

I went to load up some of these 100gr bullets in .357sig today. Thus far it looks like the profile of the bullet sucks for .357sig. The driving band is not up far enough towards the point of the bullet so it affects neck tension. Even with an OAL of 1.150" (.010" over SAAMI max) it still is not right.

The bullets Remington loads into their UMC .357sig loads is also the wrong profile. I have come to conclusion that Remington can't grasp what type of bullet the .357sig needs. Too bad I ordered 3000 of these bullets. I guess I will have to see how far I can go with the OAL.

So far, I like what I see, using them for 9mm. I tried to order more today...they are gone. My buddy and I were hoping to get another 1000 each.
So, maybe a deal in the making here...

No really, have tried them for 9mm? I haven't shot yet, but I am expecting good things. We'll see.

[Ceapea]

Well, I shot some of these today.
100gr, 3.8gr Universal (Hodgdon's starting load) @ 1.140".
Most times, this was too weak to eject the spent case, sometimes it stove-piped and sometimes the case fell out and hit me in the shoe!
So, since I was a goofball and made a bunch of these, and I don't want to pull all of them, I was thinking about shortening up the remaining bullets a bit (.005"-.010") to increase pressure. What do you think?

All that I shot today, 40 or so, were accurate at 35' and I couldn't see any break up. We were shooting bowling pins, real pins with hardwood inside. I found one ,completely whole, FRANGIBLE bullet, sticking out of the back side of the fat part of a pin. I pulled it out with pliers and other than rifling groves, no marks at all...and in one piece!
I don't know about all of this stuff we hear about being safe(r) in apartments and the like. This baby made it through 4 + inches of hard wood without any signs of distress.
It was the only one that I found, so I can't say that this is always happening, but I will definitely be doing more testing...

[Njanear]

Interesting about the one surviving the bowling pin. Those pins are tough - maybe they put these on sale through Midway because they weren't as frangible as planned.

Last night, I sat down and loaded 100 rds of the 100gr SIG bullets on my Lee Handloader for my 9mm, using ZIP powder and ran them out to the recommended 1.12 OAL. They fit my mags and drop easy in the chamber, but that profile sure makes it look like a big 147gr tucked in that case. Now to get to the range and see how they shoot against paper and static steel.

[firefighter4215]

I'm guessing that they have a minimum velocity needed for fragmentation. Like JHPs running too slow and not expanding, these weren't flying fast enough to break up, and instead maintained their composure. Just a theory.

[HAMMERHEAD]

I was surprised at how tough they really are. Wood doesn't seem to bust them up, neither does a dirt berm. It seems to take concrete or steel. They are not designed to expand or break up in soft targets like other frangibles.

I was thinking about shortening up the remaining bullets a bit (.005"-.010") to increase pressure. What do you think?

I have done that with plated bullets in 40, but I had started with a long OAL for a 10mm conversion and only reduced them to the standard OAL and with a charge that was below max for that. Obviously that comes with the standard 'at your own risk' disclaimer.

Looking at my notes, I started with .40 brass, 5.0 HP38, 1.200" OAL which gave 806 fps and did not cycle my converted G-29. I shortened some up to by .065" to 1.135" OAL which yielded 899 fps, so I don't think a reduction of .005" - .010" will do much, and I can't recommend seating deeper in the 9mm.

[Ceapea]

Originally Posted by HAMMERHEAD

I was surprised at how tough they really are. Wood doesn't seem to bust them up, neither does a dirt berm. It seems to take concrete or steel. They are not designed to expand or break up in soft targets like other frangibles.



I have done that with plated bullets in 40, but I had started with a long OAL for a 10mm conversion and only reduced them to the standard OAL and with a charge that was below max for that. Obviously that comes with the standard 'at your own risk' disclaimer.

Looking at my notes, I started with .40 brass, 5.0 HP38, 1.200" OAL which gave 806 fps and did not cycle my converted G-29. I shortened some up to by .065" to 1.135" OAL which yielded 899 fps, so I don't think a reduction of .005" - .010" will do much, and I can't recommend seating deeper in the 9mm.

I'm going to shoot some of the shortened bullets tomorrow. Only .010 at this point, but I'm taking my SS press and 9mm seating die too. I didn't think that .010 would do too much to correct the problem, but I wanted to start out on the safe side. I will shorten them up 'till they eject consistently, and the show no signs of over pressure. That will become my "new" OAL.

Thanks.

[Njanear]

Today I set up my new Lee Classic Turret press and gave it a whirl with some 124gr FMJ and then some of these 100 gr Frangibles. I will say that a decent crimp for the FMJ did NOT work for the Frangibles - I actually had 2 of the bullets break off flush with the mouth of the case. The first one that I saw was the 2nd out of the press - when I plucked it out to measure the OAL, I brushed against the bullet and it came off in my hand. The first cartridge had looked good and even measured fine but when I picked it back up and gave it a firm sideways push, it too popped off. I dialed down the crimp at that point and the other 48 did just fine. Based on the tip weight, I now have 2 9mm cartridges loaded with 47 grain wadcutters.

Morale of the story: watch that crimp closely.

[TonyT]

4.0 gr. Universal, WSP, behind the 100 gr. Rem frangible, 1.140", zero crimp, gave me 1110 fps out of my G-17 with positive ejection. That velocity is totally in line with Hodgdon's data for the 100 gr. Sinterfire.

[Ceapea]

I ended up shortening mine to 1.090", with 3.8gr Universal. They still wouldn't eject/feed reliably. So, I will "up" the charge and start again at 1.140". I have never had a "beginning load" not work for me in my guns. There is a first time for everything I guess.

[F106 Fan]

Originally Posted by Njanear

I will say that a decent crimp for the FMJ did NOT work for the Frangibles - I actually had 2 of the bullets break off flush with the mouth of the case. <snip>
I dialed down the crimp at that point and the other 48 did just fine. Based on the tip weight, I now have 2 9mm cartridges loaded with 47 grain wadcutters.

Morale of the story: watch that crimp closely.

Why are you crimping a straightwall cartridge?

Richard

[Njanear]

Originally Posted by F106 Fan

Why are you crimping a straightwall cartridge?

Richard

I set up a Lee FCD in the 4th Station rather than use the seating die to do the 'crimp'. I guess I either set it up a little tight for that SIG bullet (no issues with FMJ or plated 9mm bullets) or those 2 bullets just didn't like me. Thoughts?

[emtjr928]

Ron, Probably a bit too tight. You can use the FCD as it is a taper crimp. Just set it to take out the case mouth bell. Bullet diameter + 2X case wall thickness = Finished diameter at case mouth after loading round.

[dkf]

Originally Posted by Njanear

I set up a Lee FCD in the 4th Station rather than use the seating die to do the 'crimp'. I guess I either set it up a little tight for that SIG bullet (no issues with FMJ or plated 9mm bullets) or those 2 bullets just didn't like me. Thoughts?

You are most likely using too much crimp on the jacketed and plated bullets, that is why you crushed the frangible. The frangible bullet is harder and more brittle than the lead core bullets thus they do not give near as much when crimped and they breaks.

I have some of the 100gr Frangible bullets also. Just crimp enough to remove the flare. For jacketed and plated bullets use just enough crimp to where you can see a very light mark on the jacket.

[F106 Fan]

Originally Posted by Njanear

I set up a Lee FCD in the 4th Station rather than use the seating die to do the 'crimp'. I guess I either set it up a little tight for that SIG bullet (no issues with FMJ or plated 9mm bullets) or those 2 bullets just didn't like me. Thoughts?

Attach the FCD to a fishing line and use it for weight. Hope that your line breaks!

Seriously, that is the wrong die to use to apply a taper crimp. It's the wrong die to use for anything related to pistol loading but that's a different thread.

http://leeprecision.com/taper-crimp-die-9mm.html

Richard

[HAMMERHEAD]

Yup, deep six the FCD and buy a real taper crimp die.

[Njanear]

Interesting stuff, guys - thanks for all of the feedback. I will probably just use it for now since I have it and have 4 holes in the turret - I will do some reading though and see if I should spring the few bucks to get a Taper Crimp instead. Thanks again.

Now to get to the range and see if any of my guns actually like these starter loads. I hope they do, as I have a bunch more bullets left to play with.