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Old 09-12-2012, 17:12   #26
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Originally Posted by G35DriverG19Carrier View Post

I have read that most of you guys really don't like the 147g
I think you mis understand.

The 147gr is just fine. I carry it almost as frequently as 124 and 127.
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Old 09-12-2012, 18:04   #27
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Originally Posted by Warp View Post
I think you mis understand.

The 147gr is just fine. I carry it almost as frequently as 124 and 127.
Why such a random mix? They all hit the paper in various places.
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Old 09-12-2012, 19:34   #28
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Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
Why such a random mix? They all hit the paper in various places.
Please, save the sarcasm

They hit the paper close enough for defensive purposes. I certainly don't adjust my point of aim based on the weight of the bullet that is in the gun.
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Old 09-12-2012, 19:52   #29
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Originally Posted by G35DriverG19Carrier View Post
Hello, this is my first post in this area of the forum and only my 3rd overall (even the intro forum). I am currently Carrying 147g Bonded Golden Saber +P in my G19. Also this ammo was bought for me by a friend who said that that is what a lot of our local LEOs carry off duty if they choose a 9mm (ours carry G22s).

I have read that most of you guys really don't like the 147g stuff and I had 2 main questions to this.

1. Why do you not like the 147g?
2. What is a decent ammo to carry. I do personally believe faster and heavier = more damage. But I am totally open to opinions and any facts that I have overlooked.

Thanks everyone all input is welcome.
Your bullet fine, per the authority: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De.../index.htm#9mm
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Old 09-12-2012, 20:12   #30
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Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Please, save the sarcasm

They hit the paper close enough for defensive purposes. I certainly don't adjust my point of aim based on the weight of the bullet that is in the gun.
I fail to see where I indulged in sarcasm. I was just recognizing that a 9mm 115gr bullet at 1300 FPS would hit significantly lower than a 147gr bullet doing 900 FPS.
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Old 09-12-2012, 20:52   #31
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Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
I fail to see where I indulged in sarcasm. I was just recognizing that a 9mm 115gr bullet at 1300 FPS would hit significantly lower than a 147gr bullet doing 900 FPS.
Where did you, or I, say anything about a 115gr bullet?
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:17   #32
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Where did you, or I, say anything about a 115gr bullet?
I brought the 115gr and 147gr bullets in for they are common bullet weights in 9mmP. The 147gr bullet hits a bit higher on the target paper.
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:26   #33
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Old 09-15-2012, 12:07   #34
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Originally Posted by BuzznRose View Post
Your bullet fine, per the authority: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De.../index.htm#9mm
Did the authority get the list from Yahweh on Mt Sinai?
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Old 09-15-2012, 18:24   #35
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I, as well, do not believe there is one authority on all things related to handgun ballistics. Both sides (heavy/slow, light/fast) make good points, and both sides seem to lack something, IMHO. The list found by clicking the link is from a heavy/slow proponent that believes that only penetration matters. Having seen many animals get shot by hunters I am not convinced that only penetration matters, even with handguns. Some loads that are reported by others on GT to have very good street records are not on the list.

My personal preference is for middle of the road weight bullets moving at or near maximum speeds for each cartridge type I shoot. I split the difference between heavy/slow and light/fast. Since I don't have all of the answers I have decided this is the best approach to load selection for me.

Everyone has to make the decision on their SD load. Some may agree with me, many do not. That is OK, I think that each person needs to use what they feel is best for them.

ETA - Saying that the "authority" believes only penetration matters is to overly simplify his position. I should say he favors penetration over other things.

Last edited by avenues165; 09-15-2012 at 18:27.. Reason: Clarification
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Old 09-15-2012, 19:01   #36
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I'd like to see a number of 9mm calibrated gel tests using a platform with a 3" barrel. A good candidate for the test weapon would be the new S&W Shield as that pistol apparently has been a very reliable one since its introduction.

There are enough tests in 9mm with the 4" barrel length to allow everyone with the ability to do their own research to arrive at a personal decision. It appears to me that as barrel length increases the bullet weight a particular caliber was designed around only increases in effectiveness, with heavier weight bullets becoming viable with greater barrel length and SAAMI pressure.

There are so many hundreds of thousands of micro 9mm pistols in private hands today that I really think the next step in this area is the investigation into how the various weight bullets perform in the same media used to establish criteria for barrels of 4" or longer. I wouldn't be surprised to learn a 115-grain 9mm bullet outperform a 147-grain bullet in the micro-sized pistol.
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Old 09-15-2012, 20:25   #37
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Originally Posted by G26S239 View Post
Did the authority get the list from Yahweh on Mt Sinai?
LOL! Sorry Bro, I meant to say "an authority". The author is a professional at ballistics...

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf
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Old 09-15-2012, 22:00   #38
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LOL! Sorry Bro, I meant to say "an authority". The author is a professional at ballistics...

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf
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Old 09-15-2012, 22:08   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuzznRose
Your bullet fine, per the authority: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De.../index.htm#9mm

Quote:
Originally Posted by G26S239 View Post
Did the authority get the list from Yahweh on Mt Sinai?
Good question. These are the same people who adamantly refuse to acknowledge the FACT that both the 9mm 115JHP+P+ and the 357Mag 125JHP, used by street cops across the nation in hundreds of shootings, have a proven street record.

But hey, DocGKR doesn't let such facts get in the way when it comes down to testing bullets in the artificial labratory under artificial conditions using ballistic jello that cannot and will never be able to simulate real human flesh, blood and bones.
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Old 09-16-2012, 12:13   #40
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Originally Posted by BuzznRose View Post
LOL! Sorry Bro, I meant to say "an authority". The author is a professional at ballistics...

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

What is the author's degree in?? Say it with me, Dentistry.



"Merkavaboy: Good question. These are the same people who adamantly refuse to acknowledge the FACT that both the 9mm 115JHP+P+ and the 357Mag 125JHP, used by street cops across the nation in hundreds of shootings, have a proven street record.

But hey, DocGKR doesn't let such facts get in the way when it comes down to testing bullets in the artificial labratory under artificial conditions using ballistic jello that cannot and will never be able to simulate real human flesh, blood and bones."
^^^^^^This!
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Old 09-16-2012, 12:25   #41
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I'd like to see a number of 9mm calibrated gel tests using a platform with a 3" barrel. A good candidate for the test weapon would be the new S&W Shield as that pistol apparently has been a very reliable one since its introduction.

There are enough tests in 9mm with the 4" barrel length to allow everyone with the ability to do their own research to arrive at a personal decision. It appears to me that as barrel length increases the bullet weight a particular caliber was designed around only increases in effectiveness, with heavier weight bullets becoming viable with greater barrel length and SAAMI pressure.

There are so many hundreds of thousands of micro 9mm pistols in private hands today that I really think the next step in this area is the investigation into how the various weight bullets perform in the same media used to establish criteria for barrels of 4" or longer. I wouldn't be surprised to learn a 115-grain 9mm bullet outperform a 147-grain bullet in the micro-sized pistol.
I agree. All the testing that has been done has been with 4" or longer barrels. All the street results come from police officers carrying full-sized duty weapons.

But a lot of people, myself included, carry sub-compact or micro 9mm handguns for CCW. We've all heard over and over again which bullets work out of full-sized handguns. I'd like to know if those same bullets are recommended for for 3" barrels, or if the shorter barrel changes the game completely.
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Old 09-16-2012, 19:24   #42
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I agree. All the testing that has been done has been with 4" or longer barrels. All the street results come from police officers carrying full-sized duty weapons.

But a lot of people, myself included, carry sub-compact or micro 9mm handguns for CCW. We've all heard over and over again which bullets work out of full-sized handguns. I'd like to know if those same bullets are recommended for for 3" barrels, or if the shorter barrel changes the game completely.
A very good question, fewer people carry pistols that fit the 4" barrel criteria. Pistols are getting smaller and smaller. There is a member of GT that does mouse gun tests in Sim-test media. He tests the smaller calibers (.32, .380, etc.) and also tests 9mm and .40 s&w (IIRC) out of short-barreled pistols. That may be a good resource for those with short-barreled SD pistols.

On the other end of the spectrum, I have a G24 that I would like to use for a HD pistol. However, with a 6" barrel I am moving the GDs faster than the 4" barrel used for many tests.

I finally made the decision to go with the G23 w/357 sig barrel for HD using G22 mags. I am just a little worried about JHPs remaining intact at the velocities I am getting in a 6" barrel. I have seen my G24 blow too many JHPs apart when shooting water bottles.
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Old 09-16-2012, 21:45   #43
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I finally made the decision to go with the G23 w/357 sig barrel for HD using G22 mags. I am just a little worried about JHPs remaining intact at the velocities I am getting in a 6" barrel. I have seen my G24 blow too many JHPs apart when shooting water bottles.
You should be all right with 125-grain Speer Gold Dot or Remington Golden Saber +P Bonded at the velocities you're likely to get with these ammos.
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Old 09-18-2012, 23:16   #44
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You should be all right with 125-grain Speer Gold Dot or Remington Golden Saber +P Bonded at the velocities you're likely to get with these ammos.
I've been thinking a lot about this. I have some GD 53918 that I am going to test in Oct. I am guessing that it does ~1,300 to 1,330fps in a 4" barrel, so I am guessing that I am probably getting ~1,400 to 1,450fps from a 6" barrel, maybe a little more. I'll be testing with just water jugs, for a worst-case expansion test. I can live with some fragmentation (petals peeling off). I can't live with the mess I've seen from other JHPs out of that barrel.

If I had a G19 I think I would go with one of the 124/127gr +p offerings from Speer, Winchester, Federal, etc. I have to say that I am very intrigued by 9BPLE. It flies in the face of current trends towards bonded, heavy-for-caliber, non-fragmenting loads. But it seems to have a good street rep. per many GT members.

BTW - Where does everyone get the street results that are discussed often on GT? I can't seem to find them anywhere, and feel like a idiot regurgitating those results without seeing the sources. Books, internet, other sources?
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Old 09-27-2012, 20:37   #45
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I've been thinking a lot about this. I have some GD 53918 that I am going to test in Oct. I am guessing that it does ~1,300 to 1,330fps in a 4" barrel, so I am guessing that I am probably getting ~1,400 to 1,450fps from a 6" barrel, maybe a little more. I'll be testing with just water jugs, for a worst-case expansion test. I can live with some fragmentation (petals peeling off). I can't live with the mess I've seen from other JHPs out of that barrel.

If I had a G19 I think I would go with one of the 124/127gr +p offerings from Speer, Winchester, Federal, etc. I have to say that I am very intrigued by 9BPLE. It flies in the face of current trends towards bonded, heavy-for-caliber, non-fragmenting loads. But it seems to have a good street rep. per many GT members.

BTW - Where does everyone get the street results that are discussed often on GT? I can't seem to find them anywhere, and feel like a idiot regurgitating those results without seeing the sources. Books, internet, other sources?
Evan Marshall is an authoritative source of handgun performance on the street. he wrote a book about it.
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Old 09-28-2012, 19:34   #46
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Old 09-28-2012, 20:15   #47
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I generally alternate between 124 Gr Gold Dots or 125 Gr Cor Bon stuff. Feeds and shoot great out of my G19. I currently have some of that Hornady Zombie max stuff in it. Surprisingly or perhaps not surprisingly, they are damn accurate. I plan on getting some Underwood 9mm to try out. My G20 LOVES Underwood!
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Old 09-28-2012, 22:02   #48
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I love it when people poo-poo gel testing. You got something better that you're keeping a secret?

Doc is a DENTIST???! Well there ya go, he must be an idiot and must not really have done any of this ballistics work over the years that he's claimed.

There are 147 grainers on his list so I'm not even sure why this topic came up.

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Old 09-28-2012, 22:25   #49
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I've been thinking a lot about this. I have some GD 53918 that I am going to test in Oct. I am guessing that it does ~1,300 to 1,330fps in a 4" barrel, so I am guessing that I am probably getting ~1,400 to 1,450fps from a 6" barrel, maybe a little more.
I think that particular round would be very effective for self-defense as the 5-petal .357sig Gold Dot is supposed to be "limited penetration" at nominal .357sig caliber velocity. Through a barrel with 2" additional length that bullet ought to be more than enough.

I am very curious about this particular Speer bullet as it's not offered to reloaders and is a proprietary Speer product. The only tests I've seen for this round is
and it performed superbly in his video.

With your setup the 5-petal .357sig Gold Dot might yield less penetration but with a more explosive impact wound track.
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Old 09-29-2012, 00:11   #50
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While the extra velocity is an attractive aspect of the G24, the main reason I keep it as my HD pistol is that I shoot it a little better than my G23. Not just with regards to accuracy, I get that 2nd and 3rd shot a little quicker. Plus, it weighs enough I can club someone with it if I run out of bullets

Seriously, I feel the extra 2" of barrel does give me some extra options. I would imagine 155gr and 165gr .40 bullets are moving pretty quickly out of the 6" barrel. A 147 gr 357 sig load might be interesting with the added velocity. I have come to the conclusion that as long as I stick with a bonded bullet I'll be OK.
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