[cyphertext]

Training has come up in another thread and instead of muddying the waters, I thought I would ask in my own thread.

While I understand that there is no replacement for a multi day, high round course, a course like that may be out of reach for some due to budget, travel, or time constraints. So what would you suggest for someone interested in gaining a level of proficiency that would be considered adequate for defending themselves with the AR, in lieu of a course? Or are there other courses that you could suggest that are offered to the public that are designed more for the civilian shooter at a lower cost than some of the big name courses? What should one look for in a course?

Can you really obtain proficiency from watching videos, and then going to the range? What about participating in 3 gun or other shooting at competitions? And what can be done for the guy who is a member of a range that only allows shooting from a bench, in a seated position?

I want to attend a course, just for the experience. My home defense firearm is a shotgun, not my AR. As a hunter all my life, I have put more rounds through a shotgun than I have all of my other firearms combined, so my shotgun is more familiar to me. I shoot the AR for recreation, but I am interested in becoming more efficient with it.

[faawrenchbndr]

Tagged........

[Crazy KD]

All I can say is I went to an "Introduction to Tactical Carbine" class locally and it was well worth the money. It was a one day course, cost a little over $100, and was taught by local law enforcement instructors. I'll be honest and say there was no way I could have learned all that they taught via video. I love videos and built my lower myself watching video's but in the case of live fire it doesn't cut it. Having someone standing there correcting you when you make mistakes is worth the money.

I've also seen that Palmetto State Armory offers a similar class, but I'm not sure how it is instructed.

My other thinking was I had a couple of buddies that are former Marines. I was going to bribe them to go to the range with me, but then I found the class I attended.

If you are in SC send me a pm...

[Matthew Courtney]

My primary home defense firearm is a Remington 1100, because I have fired thousands of rounds from that platform under stress during adrenaline dumps.

As far as training, an NRA Basic Rifle course or an Appleseed shoot are excellent ways to get grounded in the fundamentals. Regarding a place to shoot, volunteering to help your local BSA council would likely get you the ability to practice all of the basic rifle shooting positions. Our local council lets us do anything we want. Of course, NRA helped fund their range expansion and I worked closely with their chief range safety officer to write their SOP's. 3 gun could be useful, especially if you had a buddy with whom to exchange feedback and practice with. I would strongly suggest getting well grounded in the fundamentals before or in conjunction with 3 gunning. Shooting 3 position at the sharpshooter level in the NRA/Winchester Marksmanship Qualification program is about what I consider well grounded- http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/marksmanship/ .

The downside of many 3 gun competitions is that using cover and/or minimizing the the target one presents to the threat is often not emphasized as much as I like. I do not want to see people conditioned to stand out in the open while facing an imminent grave threat, so incorporating cover drills into regular practice should supplement 3 gun.

Dry practice is a cost effective, easy way to rehearse the fundamentals. 20 well executed dry reps each day will go a long way toward mastering trigger control, breath control, and hold control.

To save $, quite a bit of practice can be done with a .22. Believe it or not, about 10% of the folks who take our civilian defensive rifle courses shoot much of it with a .22. On a 2 day course, they save $300 in ammo. 90% of what we do is mindset and the fundamentals of marksmenship. Highspeed low drag comes from lots of reps in executing the fundamentals until one burns neuro-muscular programming into ones very essence until effective execution of the fundamentals is the only possible response to an imminent grave threat.

[cyphertext]

Originally Posted by Crazy KD

All I can say is I went to an "Introduction to Tactical Carbine" class locally and it was well worth the money. It was a one day course, cost a little over $100, and was taught by local law enforcement instructors. I'll be honest and say there was no way I could have learned all that they taught via video. I love videos and built my lower myself watching video's but in the case of live fire it doesn't cut it. Having someone standing there correcting you when you make mistakes is worth the money.

I've also seen that Palmetto State Armory offers a similar class, but I'm not sure how it is instructed.

My other thinking was I had a couple of buddies that are former Marines. I was going to bribe them to go to the range with me, but then I found the class I attended.

If you are in SC send me a pm...

I wonder if one of our local LEO agencies offers something similar? I'm in Texas, near Dallas, if anyone knows of something that is available.

[mjkeat]

I've always wanted to attend a carbine course hosted by one of the big names. Boarding that jet to hit up a distant city for a weekend of high level instruction would be bad-ass. Like you, it's just not in my budget.

The soliution? 4-8 hour courses "locally. Local as in in-state, anywhere from 45 minutes to 6 hour round trip. They usually run from $70 to just over $100 per class. Curriculum from your basics to shooting and moving and working in and around vehicles individually or as a team. Distances ranging from the width of a car to a couple hundred yards.

Videos, I think they can be used as review. I'd have to use some sort of portable DVD player at the range or dry fire a ton at home. You should probably do this anyway.

I stopped shooting 3Gun after 4 matches. I was picking up bad habits such as rushing to holster instead of getting that last sight picture then scanning like I should.

Most places offer a defensive shotgun class as well.

Edit: as mentioned above a .22 works well as a training aide.

I ended up joining a local site in order to locate training.

[cyphertext]

Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney

As far as training, an NRA Basic Rifle course or an Appleseed shoot are excellent ways to get grounded in the fundamentals. Regarding a place to shoot, volunteering to help your local BSA council would likely get you the ability to practice all of the basic rifle shooting positions. Our local council lets us do anything we want. Of course, NRA helped fund their range expansion and I worked closely with their chief range safety officer to write their SOP's. 3 gun could be useful, especially if you had a buddy with whom to exchange feedback and practice with. I would strongly suggest getting well grounded in the fundamentals before or in conjunction with 3 gunning. Shooting 3 position at the sharpshooter level in the NRA/Winchester Marksmanship Qualification program is about what I consider well grounded- http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/marksmanship/ .

The downside of many 3 gun competitions is that using cover and/or minimizing the the target one presents to the threat is often not emphasized as much as I like. I do not want to see people conditioned to stand out in the open while facing an imminent grave threat, so incorporating cover drills into regular practice should supplement 3 gun.

Dry practice is a cost effective, easy way to rehearse the fundamentals. 20 well executed dry reps each day will go a long way toward mastering trigger control, breath control, and hold control.

To save $, quite a bit of practice can be done with a .22. Believe it or not, about 10% of the folks who take our civilian defensive rifle courses shoot much of it with a .22. On a 2 day course, they save $300 in ammo. 90% of what we do is mindset and the fundamentals of marksmenship. Highspeed low drag comes from lots of reps in executing the fundamentals until one burns neuro-muscular programming into ones very essence until effective execution of the fundamentals is the only possible response to an imminent grave threat.

My son and I are going to do an Appleseed. I think it will help him greatly. I am involved with BSA, and am a RSO for our troop. I would like to become NRA certified as an instructor, but it is difficult to get a training slot in our council...they go fast!

My son and I shoot a lot of .22lr. He has the S&W M&P 15-22 and I have a CMMG Quebec A for large quantities at the range.

[Crazy KD]

Originally Posted by cyphertext

I wonder if one of our local LEO agencies offers something similar? I'm in Texas, near Dallas, if anyone knows of something that is available.

This was a private course that brought in local law enforcement as instructors. I would think there has to be something similar in that area though as you aren't exactly out in the boonies.

[Matthew Courtney]

Dan Graeber, my mentor, is the owner and operator of the trainers group in the Dallas area.
http://trainersgroup.net/

Dan is also an NRA Senior training counselor and is active with Lone Star Area Council. He trains NRA instructors in every discipline.

Let Dan know what you want to do and he will help you make it happen, even if that means referring you to someone else. He was instrumental in assisting us in getting our shooting sports program in Calcasieu Area Council going.

If Dan doesn't have any instructor courses coming up, we have a rifle instructor course coming up 10/19-21/2012. It is a 6 hour drive from Dallas and we have a Camper trailer at our range that you can crash in. Pricing for BSA volunters is $125. Pre-course assessment includes ability to hit 4.5 inch disk with iron sighted rifle in bench rest, prone, and standing position.

[AK_Stick]

It really depends what you are after.


3 Gun can build some skills, but its primarily a game, where the goal is to be fast, and accurate. There is some training value, but you can also develop bad habits from "gaming" Same with IDPA and other pistol events.

NRA training is generally, the opposite. While good/great (depending upon instructor) at developing the basics, they don't really teach anything tailored to fighting/functioning your weapon in a tactical/self defense/life threatening encounter area.

Appleseed is much like the NRA in this regard. Will teach you some basics of shooting. But its primarily rooted around punching paper at long ranges, and some history lessons, and little on fighting with your weapon. Its also primarily shooting a 22 at short range, "simulated" targets. While it does teach, and build a little on true long range skills, there's a lot you won't learn about shoot long distances at an Appleseed event.

Videos and such, can be good, but the down side, is if you haven't started some basic tactical proficiency with a instructor who knows what he's doing, you can quickly develop bad habits that take years to break. Because you don't know any better to start with.


As far as stuff you can work on, on your own. Clearing a malfunction/diagnosing malfunctions, changing mags, and proper trigger control (google dime/washer drills).

I'd just do some looking around at firearms training schools. I'm betting there's some good instruction local to you. Once you learn the basics I.E. an intro to tactical carbine or what not course, you can decide what you like, and train on your own/where you like.

[K. Foster]

There really isn’t a substitute for training with an instructor that can physically tweak your performance and can answer your questions.
That said, the right videos are worth buying. Competition is good but as others have pointed out, can teach you bad habits like improper use of cover. IMO, one can not over emphasis the importance of dry fire practice.
Before I retired this spring, I was a Lead Firearms Instructor for one of the less prestigious Fed Bureau’s. If you ever get over to SW Mo. I’ll give you a free 1 day class.

[WoodenPlank]

(Disclaimer: I purposefully skipped all the earlier replies in this thread, so they wouldn't derail my own thoughts on this...)

AN observant person can learn a lot just by watching a talented shooter. That's exactly how I got my start, by watching some damn good shooters clear the shoot house at the local 3-gun matches when I was a teenager. When you see guys running bone stock M4-type carbines, Mossberg 500s or Remington 870s and 1911s or Glocks smoking the times of the guys with custom, tricked out ARs, 1911 race guns and semi-auto shotguns, even a teenager sits up and watches that those guys are doing differently.

That said, getting hands on instruction and advice trumps watching any day. Plenty of companies out there now offer 1-day, inexpensive basic carbine and rifle courses for the civilian. Taking one such course from a reputable instructor can go a LONG way towards giving a non-mil shooter the experience and know-how they need to be a competent shooter. It won't make them anywhere near as good as Kyle Lamb, Larry Vickers, etc. - but it will make them a lot better than the average Joe with no training at all. Check out reviews, AARs (After Action Reports), and any other info you can find on a particular instructor or company first, though.

However, I have found that the biggest key to learning is simply mental -

Know what you know, and what you do not know. When you find someone that knows about things you do not, LISTEN. Above all, keep the BS detector handy, and take everything with a grain of salt.

[D.S.Brown]

cyphertext,

Check out Tiger Valley. It's a company run by a Garland SWAT officer named TJ Pilling.

Their main classes occur in Waco, however they also teach at Elmfork Gun Range near Los Colinas. He regularly puts on short Tuesday night classes that typically run for about 3 hours, cost about $65 dollars, and use up about 200 rounds.

Early May I took a small block of training I think Tactical Carbine. It's a limited format due to time and the number of people, upwards of 15-20. You won't likely get much individualized attention from TJ. However the block of training was good. There was a follow up 2 weeks later I think Carbine Tactics, which I didn't attend, but probably should have. So between the two, you would have received about 5 hours of instruction, learned a thing or two about affecting a speed reload, as well as fast follow up shots, transition to a handgun, and a little bit of mind set, and some effective ammo choices, and probably alot more. All for about $130, plus the cost of about 400 rounds of rifle ammo and about 100 rounds of pistol ammo.

TJ is an excellent instructor. He's a been there done that guy, that doesn't talk much about it, unless he needs to stress a point, and definitely not war stories. I plan to attend his 2 day Carbine course in Waco. It's about $375 for two days, plus the cost of roughly two cases of ammo. If you left early enough on a Saturday a.m. you could probably make it down there in time for the briefing and class, and only have to pay for a one night hotel stay.

They are offering the class I took in May on Tuesday night September 11th, 2012 at Elmfork.

Tactical Carbine - Elm Fork, Dallas, TX
When: Tue, September 11, 6:30pm – 9:00pm
Where: 10751 Luna Rd, Dallas, TX (map)
Description:
Carbine Skills, strong hand/weak hand shooting, target to target, moving & shooting, multiple shots and targets, transition drills.

Required Equipment:
Carbine with sling & Pistol with holster 200 rounds carbine, 50 rounds pistol, and eye and ear protection.

Cost: $65


And this is a "follow up" to the latter on Tuesday November 6th 2012.

Fighting Rifle - Elm Fork, Dallas, TX
When: Tue, November 6, 6:30pm – 9:00pm
Where: 10751 Luna Rd, Dallas, TX (map)
Description:
Employ your carbine from, around, through and under cover. Shooting and moving, transition drills, and more.

Required Equipment:
Carbine, sling, pistol, holster, 200 rounds carbine, 50 rounds pistol, and eye/ear protection.

Cost: $65

Best,

Dave

[K. Foster]

I don’t know any of the Tiger Valley people personally but they have an excellent rep. I would pay to train with them.

[MrMurphy]

I know T.J personally. He is good to go.

Steve Moses and his group up in Dallas are also solid. It's been about ten years since I've trained with him due to career, war, etc, but we've kept in contact occasionally.

Shooting with experienced guys as Plank said can definitely help, a friend with zero experience was an excellent monkey-see-monkey-do type and with a few repetitions was doing things myself and another veteran were doing, and more importantly, knew WHY. He still needs professional training (and most likely, will go to TJ's pistol class this year) but for someone who started out as a blank slate, he's doing well.

[Big Bird]

I know this is going to go over like a lead ballon but here's m .02...

I personally feel too many people try to run before than can crawl when it comes to guns and rifles/carbines in particular.

If you want to be good. I mean REALLY good with a rifle you need to work on the basics. Target shooting with tiny bullseyes. Nothing will teach you more about trigger control, cheek weld, sight alignment, position shooting, breathing, trigger control, than target shooting and competitve target shooting if you want to be serious.

If you learn the fundamentals all the rest will fall in place MUCH easier. If you decide you want to go out and run around and play soldier with your AR without some serious trigger work on paper for score you are really setting yourself up for problems down the road. Just like a golfer who never learns the basics of a good swing but goes out and plays until he has all kinds of hard to fix bad habits...

Do what you want. Its a free country. But I can tell you from training hundreds and hundreds of soldiers to shoot, competing (and winning some) State Small bore Championship, State Service Rifle Championships, Regional Match titles etc that there's no easy or quick way to do this. A rifle is an experts weapon and it takes discipline and skill to employ well and you don't pick that up in a weekend carbine course as fun as they may be.

You can learn a lot shooting a decent air rifle in your back yard.

My favorite story about this is we were prepping for a Highpower Match one day and up rolls this van and these four serious looking dudes jump out with big hard cases which we guessed were their rifles. One guy walks up and asks if this was the Rifle Match and then announced that he was glad to be here, announced they were from the FBI Hostage Resuce Team and he hoped to show some of us how to shoot. At the time there were three High Masters on the line and a couple of Master class shots. One of the guys placed second at Camp Perry the year before.

As they moved up to the line we noticed they had AR's with scopes. When we told them scopes weren't allowed--open sights only--they were kinda stunned. OK....so they take their scopes off and asks if anyone knows how to adjust open sights on an AR... So one of the guys goes over and sets up a battlesight zero for the FBI guys. When they realized the first targets were shot offhand at 200 yards I think their jaws about dropped. After the first relay they literally had more shots on the number board then they had in the scoring rings. None of them got all 20 shots off during the rapid fire events. At 600 they just gave up and never completed the match and kind of quietly exited stage left.

There will be folks who come along here very shortly and tell you that you don't need to do this to get good with a carbine. That you can learn everything you need to know about the whole thing doing Vickers drills. OK....fine. That's their opinion. I happen to believe otherwise.

[cyphertext]

Thanks all for the leads. I will check these out. And K. Foster and Matthew Courtney, thank you for your generous offers. And BB, I agree, it all starts with the fundamentals. At the range I go to, they only allow shooting seated from the bench, and it is 100 yards max. I know, time to find a new range....

[MD357]

Some great responses/insight in this thread. TO ME, usually anything you can get locally is better than nothing.

[M&P15T]

As I'm getting more proficient with my AR, I can better appreciate some of the comments here. I definitely see that learning to shoot an AR requires a multi-faceted approach. Learning sight picture, POA/POI (trajectory), breathing and trigger control, using both BUISs and optics to see the difference in the speed of target aquisition, learning how to change mags smoothly and efficiently....just tons of stuff.

And that doesn't get into applying those basics towards any moving & shooting tactics.

[RyanNREMTP]

It doesn't matter who teaches, how ammo was shot or how much the class cost, all that matters is how much the student is willing to learn.

I too have heard great things about tiger valley. It's on my list of places to go to.

Outhouse Hub, the misinformation solution.

[Matthew Courtney]

Originally Posted by Big Bird

I know this is going to go over like a lead ballon but here's m .02...

I personally feel too many people try to run before than can crawl when it comes to guns and rifles/carbines in particular.

If you want to be good. I mean REALLY good with a rifle you need to work on the basics. Target shooting with tiny bullseyes. Nothing will teach you more about trigger control, cheek weld, sight alignment, position shooting, breathing, trigger control, than target shooting and competitve target shooting if you want to be serious.

If you learn the fundamentals all the rest will fall in place MUCH easier. If you decide you want to go out and run around and play soldier with your AR without some serious trigger work on paper for score you are really setting yourself up for problems down the road. Just like a golfer who never learns the basics of a good swing but goes out and plays until he has all kinds of hard to fix bad habits...

Do what you want. Its a free country. But I can tell you from training hundreds and hundreds of soldiers to shoot, competing (and winning some) State Small bore Championship, State Service Rifle Championships, Regional Match titles etc that there's no easy or quick way to do this. A rifle is an experts weapon and it takes discipline and skill to employ well and you don't pick that up in a weekend carbine course as fun as they may be.

You can learn a lot shooting a decent air rifle in your back yard.

My favorite story about this is we were prepping for a Highpower Match one day and up rolls this van and these four serious looking dudes jump out with big hard cases which we guessed were their rifles. One guy walks up and asks if this was the Rifle Match and then announced that he was glad to be here, announced they were from the FBI Hostage Resuce Team and he hoped to show some of us how to shoot. At the time there were three High Masters on the line and a couple of Master class shots. One of the guys placed second at Camp Perry the year before.

As they moved up to the line we noticed they had AR's with scopes. When we told them scopes weren't allowed--open sights only--they were kinda stunned. OK....so they take their scopes off and asks if anyone knows how to adjust open sights on an AR... So one of the guys goes over and sets up a battlesight zero for the FBI guys. When they realized the first targets were shot offhand at 200 yards I think their jaws about dropped. After the first relay they literally had more shots on the number board then they had in the scoring rings. None of them got all 20 shots off during the rapid fire events. At 600 they just gave up and never completed the match and kind of quietly exited stage left.

There will be folks who come along here very shortly and tell you that you don't need to do this to get good with a carbine. That you can learn everything you need to know about the whole thing doing Vickers drills. OK....fine. That's their opinion. I happen to believe otherwise.

I agree 100%. Defensive carbine training, whether instructor directed, peer directed, or self directed involves intermediate and advanced skills. It must be built upon a good foundation of solid basic marksmanship. Anything else is just blasting, not good training. Blasting might get you onto a man sized target at 25 feet on a static range, but it will not likely get you the hits one needs under the dynamic stresses of a deadly force encounter, only good training will do that.

[surf]

Originally Posted by cyphertext

Training has come up in another thread and instead of muddying the waters, I thought I would ask in my own thread.

While I understand that there is no replacement for a multi day, high round course, a course like that may be out of reach for some due to budget, travel, or time constraints. So what would you suggest for someone interested in gaining a level of proficiency that would be considered adequate for defending themselves with the AR, in lieu of a course? Or are there other courses that you could suggest that are offered to the public that are designed more for the civilian shooter at a lower cost than some of the big name courses? What should one look for in a course?

Look for a company that has been in business for some time. If they are booked or selling out courses than that is probably a good sign that they have good value to offer as far as training goes. While this might not always be the case it is a good start.

Can you really obtain proficiency from watching videos, and then going to the range?

Depends on the video, topic and overall content. Basic principles can often be successful, but more advanced stuff is hard to pick up. The problem with video is that people will often emulate what they see, without really understanding the "why's" behind it. Nothing will replace a quality instructor who can fix the problem as it happens. I will also note that video can be a great tool to use in evaluating your own shooting. Higher levels of shooters can greatly benefit from video and self remediation.

What about participating in 3 gun or other shooting at competitions?

I am a fan of competition as it can give a shooter an advantage in practical defensive application even for an LEO or Military type, but the competition experience needs to be added in conjunction with practical application of sound defensive tactics and trained as such. Without a good balance of both, sound defensive tactics can suffer.

I want to attend a course, just for the experience. My home defense firearm is a shotgun, not my AR. As a hunter all my life, I have put more rounds through a shotgun than I have all of my other firearms combined, so my shotgun is more familiar to me. I shoot the AR for recreation, but I am interested in becoming more efficient with it.

Most people who are self taught really "don't know what they don't know" when it comes to the application of a firearm for defensive purposes. Many also think they might know how to run their weapon well, but usually quickly find out that they are not as skilled with marksmanship and manipulation of the weapon as they thought. At least you understand the potential for training and you will no doubt learn volumes about training provided that you get that training from a reputable source.

[JBaird22]

Even though I am certified to instruct rifle, anything beyond a novice level and I am not qualified, I feel, to instruct.

Its recognizing limitations and building from them. I'm hoping to get some more rifle training this coming year as well as purchase a 22 conversion kit so I can get some lower cost trigger time in on the weapon system.

[MrMurphy]

Some of the best training I've done recently was with a couple friends. One was basically a blank slate, the other has had multiple professional training courses.

We shot an M&P15/22 and a 10/22 (replacement for an AK, same charging handle and mag type) with a 25 rounder. With nothing but a bay, four folding chairs and some targets, plus pistols, we expended around 75 rounds of 9mm, 200-300 .22 and about $12 in total ammo cost over four hours.

We covered transitions, shooting to/from cover, shooting under cover (SBU/rollover prone) as well as around it, proper methods of going prone, mag changes, tac loading (reloading rifle behind cover and topping off pistol before moving from cover) etc.

With two fairly well trained shooters and one novice, we ran through a solid dozen drills, had one of us experienced guys operating as the RO and the other being the 'voice' for the bad-guy targets or giving inputs "he's dead" etc.

Professional training is obviously better, but you can improvise.

[TangoFoxtrot]

BB is correct! The crawl, walk, run method does work and for a lot of different applications. Their is no substitute for actual training with qualified instructors. BUT! you must remember it is a perishable skill that must be honed on a regular basis. If your using an AR for defense, you need the proper training to apply that weapon system in a correct manner. IMHO.