[AZL]

Short history: 23 years as a police officer, 14 of those years SWAT, 7 years SWAT trainer, 7 years Gangs Narcotics. I know the AR platform as well as I know the dimples on my wife's butt.

Anyone who has taken my Defensive Carbine classes, or who has trained with me knows I have a sick affinity for a purpose-built-custom-built AR. Red Dot or Holographic Sights from AimPoint, Sig (STS-081 ~ BETTER than AimPoint! Yes Dorothy, it's true), and EOTech all have current claims to real estate on my pic rails. Daniel Defense quad rails over fluted heavy barrels, Timney Triggers....some of my rifles have exceeded $3,000 in build cost.

All that being said...I noticed many of my students coming to class with very basic rifles from Bushmaster, DPMS, Colt, and others. They did well IF they listened, and IF they applied what was being taught. BUT...more than a few looked at the $3,000 rifle I was using to teach with, and got the idea that they NEEDED all the same Star Trek gear I had on my rifle to be able to defend themselves.

SO....I decided to take my handgun philosophy (You don't NEED a custom 1911 to defend yourself, so I teach with and carry a well-used Glock) and apply it to my Defensive Carbine Class and assemble a perfectly capable defensive carbine and do it for UNDER $800.

Here is what I did:

I responded to an ad selling new Smith & Wesson M&P15 Sports for $599. To that I added MagPul furniture (MOE stock, forend, pistol grip, and vertical). This added another $120. I canned the MagPul MBUS flip up sight, as this rifle would not have a dot or holo-sight, I wanted a steel fixed rear sight. I wanted to keep the cost down, so I bought a UTG rear sight for $20.

So...now as a running total, I am in this rifle for $719. I am a huge advocate of a light on a rifle, so I needed to add one. As we all know...a cheap part, is just that...a cheap part. No bargain basement light that "looks" like a Streamlight or Surefire was going to work as it should, and WOULD fail when you needed it most. That's one of the rules. BUT...a light from Streamlight or Surefire is going to blow me right over the $800 built-limit I imposed on myself.

Solution: I bought a 120 Lumen Streamlight PolyTech LED for $39.00. It is the polymer body light, and they WORK. I have had one in all three of our vehicles, and use one hunting, and I have never had a single issue with it. So, I bought another. Then, a set of Weaver Quad Lock 1" scope rings for $10.00. My build cost is now at $768.00.

Following Cllint Smith's (my daughter's Godfather and Ms. Heidi's "Range Angel" as she calls her) advice, knowing you are most likely to fight with what is IN or ON your rifle....I added a MagPul MagLink coupler and another 30-round PMag to the one provided with the rifle. $15 for the PMag, and $16 for the Mag Link.

Grand Total: $799 I had a dollar left over for a coffee refill at my usual gas station coffee stop.

I have about 500 rounds through the M&P without a single hiccup...I haven't cleaned it, and I won't until it fails. I want to have a good idea of the "run time between oil changes" on this rifle.

The rifle has been TOTALLY reliable, and very accurate. The "missing" forward assist is no issue at all. I never train students to use it. I train them to go to immeduate clearance drill IF there is a firing stoppage as there is NO time wasted diagnosing the problem....just fix it. The dust cover is no loss either, as dust WILL get in no matter where you are.

Anyway...don't feel like you are undergunned if your defensive carbine is a "Basic Black". As long as it goes BANG and puts the BB where you intend it to go(and you are willing to PRACTICE and TRAIN)....you are golden.









So....there is the BASIC BLACK

P.S. I made the paracord sling, and scavenged the Hk clips from an old sling...so I didn't include those in the build cost.

[M&P15T]

Not my cup of tea.......but if you like it, that's all that matters.

[AZL]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

Not my cup of tea.......but if you like it, that's all that matters.

My point in the whole exercise is to demonstrate to my students that they don't NEED an expensive, tricked out rifle to defend themselves. I could TELL them that all day long, but I needed to be able to DEMONSTRATE it to them.

The even more sailent point is this: The students will come out of the class with more ability to defend themselves across a broad spectrum of situations BETTER than the tacticool teddy wannabes who think that a brand name will magically transform them into Rambo because they will know how to run a basic gun, and not let the gun run them.

And yeah...I DO like it. I like it because it is a successful experiment, and because it is a light, handy, eminently capable rifle. Once dialed in...it will put rounds exactly where I send them when I press the go-button.

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by AZL

My point in the whole exercise is to demonstrate to my students that they don't NEED an expensive, tricked out rifle to defend themselves. I could TELL them that all day long, but I needed to be able to DEMONSTRATE it to them.

The even more sailent point is this: The students will come out of the class with more ability to defend themselves across a broad spectrum of situations BETTER than the tacticool teddy wannabes who think that a brand name will magically transform them into Rambo because they will know how to run a basic gun, and not let the gun run them.

And yeah...I DO like it. I like it because it is a successful experiment, and because it is a light, handy, eminently capable rifle. Once dialed in...it will put rounds exactly where I send them when I press the go-button.

Well, no one NEEDS a rifle for anything, pretty much. An AR is pretty much just a toy, so if someone wants to buy an Uber rifle and hang all sorts of optics, lights, laser & grips off of it, don't sweat it.

Seriously, what do you care? More money moving is good, so let folks blow wads of cash on their AR.

[cyphertext]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

I find your general line of thinking rather humerous.

It's seems that the person that thinks that high-end rifles and accessories = RamboSealDeltaOperator is YOU. You seem to notice that there are folks with lots of accessories and attachments and such, but you seem to get flustered because they can't actually use their weapon that well.

Well, they're coming to you for instruction, right? So YOU, as the instructor, are getting bent out of shape over the fact that people come to you to get training, with Uber rifles with lots of optics and lights and grips and such......because why?

Are you getting this? The person that is freaking out about noobs with Eotechs and Surfires and such on their rifles is YOU, not THEM. They're coming to you for training, so train them with whatever they bring. To do otherwise is stupid.

Just because you think that they're "Mall Ninjas" for having an Aimpoint/Eotech and light on their AR doesn't mean that THEY think they're SEALs.......it's just that they like/want those accessories on their rifle. So.....teach them to use that stuff. And just accept that some type of optic and light is pretty much standard for HD/SD at this point.

Oh, and switch to de-caf. I hear it tastes like the real thing.

That isn't what he was saying...He is saying that his students are coming with basic carbines and then begin thinking that they need all the gizmos on their rifle to be effective, like he has on his, and this isn't true. So he built a very basic, inexpensive carbine to teach with so that his students can see that you don't have to have the high end rifle with gizmos to be effective for defense.

He is basically saying that a simple, inexpensive rifle with a light can be effective for a defensive situation. And I would assume that as a student progresses, then the red dots and other devices can be incorporated into their training, but learn to run the basic rifle first and have a solid foundation to build on.

[Zombie Steve]

AZL - I very much like your "back to basics" thinking. There's the old saying - those who can, do... those who can't buy more equipment.



Here's my KISS AR:

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by cyphertext

That isn't what he was saying...He is saying that his students are coming with basic carbines and then begin thinking that they need all the gizmos on their rifle to be effective, like he has on his, and this isn't true. So he built a very basic, inexpensive carbine to teach with so that his students can see that you don't have to have the high end rifle with gizmos to be effective for defense.

He is basically saying that a simple, inexpensive rifle with a light can be effective for a defensive situation. And I would assume that as a student progresses, then the red dots and other devices can be incorporated into their training, but learn to run the basic rifle first and have a solid foundation to build on.

You....uhhh...see I edited my post, right?

[cyphertext]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

You....uhhh...see I edited my post, right?

ya, but not until I typed up my long winded response and hit submit.

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by cyphertext

ya, but not until I typed up my long winded response and hit submit.

Sorry to cause you to waste so much time.

[PaulMason]

Originally Posted by AZL

I responded to an ad selling new Smith & Wesson M&P15 Sports for $599.

To that I added MagPul furniture (MOE stock, forend, pistol grip, and vertical). This added another $120.

I canned the MagPul MBUS flip up sight, as this rifle would not have a dot or holo-sight, I wanted a steel fixed rear sight. I wanted to keep the cost down, so I bought a UTG rear sight for $20.

Solution: I bought a 120 Lumen Streamlight PolyTech LED for $39.00.

I added a MagPul MagLink coupler and another 30-round PMag to the one provided with the rifle. $15 for the PMag, and $16 for the Mag Link.

P.S. I made the paracord sling, and scavenged the Hk clips from an old sling...so I didn't include those in the build cost.

I like your concept.

How much more utility dose the stock and rear sight add? Are they need to have or like to have?

If you were to add a optic, what would you add?

Finally, who is the intended user - police officer in the course of their work or a civilian for self defense.

[Bren]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

Well, no one NEEDS a rifle for anything, pretty much. An AR is pretty much just a toy, so if someone wants to buy an Uber rifle and hang all sorts of optics, lights, laser & grips off of it, don't sweat it.

Seriously, what do you care? More money moving is good, so let folks blow wads of cash on their AR.

Maybe he isn't teaching classes for people who view their rifles as a "toy."

There are actually shooters out there who view their weapons as weapons...they just don't post on Glock Talk in any great numbers.

[MajorD]

well done- often simpler is as good or better than fancy- people tend to fixate on the gear as opposed to the basic skills. when I went to Afghanistan I had an m4 with light optics etc, but felt just as well equipped with my basic m16A4 I had in Iraq on my prior tour- no add ons of any sort, regular sights.
My club runs a two gun match from time to time- guys show up with all kinds of stuff hanging off the gun- often with little practice in using it-then run unproven steel case ammo or reloads and the gun is bone dry and they wonder why it won't get through a mag with out issues.

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by Bren

Maybe he isn't teaching classes for people who view their rifles as a "toy."

There are actually shooters out there who view their weapons as weapons...they just don't post on Glock Talk in any great numbers.

And maybe he is. Maybe he's teaching classes for average Joes and Janes to learn a thing or two about their AR. People whose ARs will be nothing but toys, just like 99% of AR owners out there.

Oh, I'm sorry, you were trying to be a smart ass about toys vrs. weapons.....gotcha. That was probably the reason for your sarcastic observations.

[Sharkey]

Simple is always better in my opinion and most cops don't have or don't want to spend a lot of cash for a rifle.

BG's don't say "MF'er shot me with a tier 1 gun".

If it is reliable, and you can hit what you are shooting at, the rifle serves its purpose.

Mine isn't a range toy. It does spend a lot of time cased up in a trunk or at home waiting to be used. In that context, I've used a mini 14 and took it to a carbine school with 0 issues. Currently have a YHM rifle that has had 0 issues and a Troy Defense rifle I just bought which will be the new carry rifle.

Spend it if you got it I guess but most of my extra cash goes to cycles, vehicle maintenance or vet bills.

[fuzzy03cls]

And your 1000% right AZL....
So much has been taught that you need a colt or DD or BCM to defend your life or hit paper.
As the shooting market has increased to everyday people from all walks of life & prices have stabilized, & AR's are now being made by many different sources, I just don't see a need for some high dollar AR. Sure it's nice & those "specs" may be great & all, but the market has evolved. Everyday people don't care if the end plate is staked or the bolt is MP tested. So what if the bolt needs to be replace at 10K rounds or the non chrome lined barrel only lasts 20K rounds. The great thing is these are module systems & everything can be replaced with better parts as they need them.

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by fuzzy03cls

And your 1000% right AZL....
So much has been taught that you need a colt or DD or BCM to defend your life or hit paper.
As the shooting market has increased to everyday people from all walks of life & prices have stabilized, & AR's are now being made by many different sources, I just don't see a need for some high dollar AR. Sure it's nice & those "specs" may be great & all, but the market has evolved. Everyday people don't care if the end plate is staked or the bolt is MP tested. So what if the bolt needs to be replace at 10K rounds or the non chrome lined barrel only lasts 20K rounds. The great thing is these are module systems & everything can be replaced with better parts as they need them.

Very true. I'm interested to see the longevity of the M&P Sport barrels, with their Melonite coating.

It could be they last as long as chrome-lined barrels.

[Gunnut 45/454]

What no one screaming it sucks cause it doesn't have a $400 -1000 dollar optic on it!!! Oh wait this is a LEO's gun never mind! AZL great looking peice!

[thisaway]

Originally Posted by Sharkey

BG's don't say "MF'er shot me with a tier 1 gun".

LOL!

Very, very true! The people who I have run into with gunshot wounds have certainly not been overly interested in the calibre/make of the gun that shot them.

[bmoore]

Nice rifle. I would have skipped the UTG rear iron in favor of a PSA carry handle or DD A1.5 fixed rear. My calculations also had me at 699 for a PSA mid length (309 right now) with PSA BCG, DD A1.5 rear and a lower of your choice with the 100 dollar PSA lower build kit. Would be close to the same end price with a Polytac and mount. There are some deals to be had out there.

Most people are not saying you NEED a DD, BCM, Noveske to defend yourself and have fun at the range. Some people enjoy rifles and like to have different ones. Just because someone has a nice rifle with quality optics/parts on it does not automatically make them a wannabe or a mall ninja.

[TheJ]

OP:
I like your thinking. Thanks for posting this.

Originally Posted by M&P15T

Well, no one NEEDS a rifle for anything, pretty much. An AR is pretty much just a toy....

I've always found statements like is to be interesting and quite revealing of among other things, just how easy it is for our rights to be taken using fallacious logic.

Originally Posted by Bren

Maybe he isn't teaching classes for people who view their rifles as a "toy."

There are actually shooters out there who view their weapons as weapons...

Sort of what I was thinking too.

[AZL]

Originally Posted by PaulMason

I like your concept.

How much more utility dose the stock and rear sight add? Are they need to have or like to have?

If you were to add a optic, what would you add?

Finally, who is the intended user - police officer in the course of their work or a civilian for self defense.

How much more utility dose the stock and rear sight add? Are they need to have or like to have?

I would hesitate to call the stock "need to have". I added the MagPul because I have found it to be good gear, and I prefer the feel of it to the stock parts. One thing I will say is that the stock forend on the Smith was all polymer, and had no heat shield inside, thus it would get HOT after 10 rounds. The MagPul transfers a lot less heat, so I consider it a "good thing to have". I prefer the MOE on the back end because it locks more solidly...so, again it is a "good thing to have" but not a "need". (Helpful hint...the S&W has a commercial buffer tube...BUT...use the Mil Spec MOE. It is TIGHT on the tube, and it eliminates any shake or rattle, and feels almost as solid as an A2 stock). The sight, I consider a "need" because as good as the MBUS is, and I have them on all my other flat-top rifles...it IS a backup sight, and it's weak point is it's hinge. If you use it for your primary sight, there is a chance it can get snapped off....I have seen it happen to an idiot who got too close to cover, and broke it (it was ME). So, I replaced it with a steel rear sight as it IS the primary sight.

If you were to add a optic, what would you add?

IF I were planning on an optic, and I was looking to spend the least amount of money and still get QUALITY...I would buy the Sig STS-081 dot. I got one free with my Sig 556, and became an INSTANT fan. I now have 4 of them on 4 different rifles. They retail for $180 or less (Optics Planet) and I have yet to have one fail, lose zero, or not perform magnificently. I would trust my life to one with NO hesitation. I like it BETTER than my AimPoint Micro that cost twice as much.





Finally, who is the intended user - police officer in the course of their work or a civilian for self defense

The intended user is anyone who wants a good, workman-like rifle who doesn't want to spend, or can't afford to spend on the high side of $2000 for a rifle. This is a rifle you can literally have set up with everything you NEED for $800, and add a Sig STS and still spend less than $1000. I assembled it as a teaching rifle, and it has become my general-all-around rifle.

Don't get me wrong, I still love all my higher-end guns and cool gear. The truth is, I am 44 now and my eyes aren't what they used to be, so a dot or holo-sight IS a great thing to have. It isn't a MUST HAVE....yet. I still train to the expectation that EVERYTHING I have with a power cell on my rifle WILL fail at the worst possible time...thus, I still train with iron sights a LOT.

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by TheJ

I've always found statements like is to be interesting and quite revealing of among other things, just how easy it is for our rights to be taken using fallacious logic.

Wait.....

What in the hell are you trying to say? How does my comment have anything to do with "our rights being taken"?

What fallacious logic are you talking about?

[bmoore]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

Well, no one NEEDS a rifle for anything, pretty much. An AR is pretty much just a toy.

.

You should tell these guys that. Koreatown Los Angeles in April of 1992. They may disagree with your silly statement.

[MD357]

AZL, thanks for the logical and informative post. I'm with ya that a back to basics mentality is more imperative than getting the latest gear.

There are actually shooters out there who view their weapons as weapons...they just don't post on Glock Talk in any great numbers.

Probably discouraged by too many morons with chips on their shoulders that think their guns are "toys."

[AZL]

Originally Posted by bmoore

Nice rifle. I would have skipped the UTG rear iron in favor of a PSA carry handle or DD A1.5 fixed rear. My calculations also had me at 699 for a PSA mid length (309 right now) with PSA BCG, DD A1.5 rear and a lower of your choice with the 100 dollar PSA lower build kit. Would be close to the same end price with a Polytac and mount. There are some deals to be had out there.

Most people are not saying you NEED a DD, BCM, Noveske to defend yourself and have fun at the range. Some people enjoy rifles and like to have different ones. Just because someone has a nice rifle with quality optics/parts on it does not automatically make them a wannabe or a mall ninja.

Agreed...don't miss the point of what I was trying to do though. I wanted to "assemble"...not BUILD a rifle with a specific dollar limit in mind, in a manner that the average guy or gal who has never "built" a rifle could do the same way with NO special tools or no idea how to find those deals that are out there. Just off-the-shelf parts, that go on easy and do the job right.

I used the UTG rear sight because they work...I have seen a lot of them on a lot of rifles...and the $40 someone saves using that rather than a Troy or other rear that can cost upwards of $60-$100 or more...they can buy 100-200 rounds of ammo to practice with.

The only people I consider Mall Ninjas or Tacticool Teddy Wannabes are the ones who learn EVERYTHING they know about defensive weaponry from forums, the fat guy at the gun shop who shoots MAYBE 100 rounds a year, and learned all HE knows from hollywood, or from the latest issue of SWATDUDE magazine. Even worse is the guy who bolts all the stuff on his rifle, thinking it is a REPLACEMENT for training (aquiring new skills) and practice.

As I have said...I like my ARs. I like to continue to build and seek my "ultimate" ultimate rifle...but I want to teach people that they don't NEED all the pretty stuff to actually be effectively defended. I had to put my $$ where my mouth was, and do it. This M&P will get a workout, because even though I don't shoot a lot DURING class...I shoot the drills and demonstrate what I am teaching...but my classes are not "Looky What I Can Do" bragging sessions, they are about the student shooting, and learning. This rifle will get a workout from students who will use it if they have a gun-related issue or have never used an AR and want to try one in favor of their Mini 14, or AK. NO...not saying there is anything wrong with the Mini or the AK...I like them both...but why not try new things too?