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Old 08-11-2012, 23:00   #81
Detectorist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youngdocglock View Post
She has. And thank you for that. I do not mean to be so abrasive about this subject. But it is one very close to my heart, People who i love have died for their country, while being gay. I believe those people deserve the same respect as any soldier. Gay or not. And i believe we should give this Army General the respect she deserves for her Military Accomplishments, regardless of her sexual orientation.

Our country is looked down on daily by the entire world. We are called fat, lazy, stupid, intolerant , ignorant , violent, and oppressive.

And we back that up by oppressing our own people on a daily basis. We disrespect the honnor of the fallen to save face.

Maj. Allen Rodgers U.S. Army was killed in iraq After the dont ask dont tell policy was repealed. The Army asked his family to NOT tell the media that he was GAY. Because they didnt want people to know.

I can not think of any higher form of disrespect for a fallen soldier than that. He was a brother, a son a friend and a soldier. So what if he was gay. He deserves respect none the less. Just as every gay soldier does.
geez, man. A simple 'thank you' would have been enough.
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Old 08-12-2012, 04:16   #82
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Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
It's not like she's lied about her qualifications or having a prior criminal record. She lied under a policy of discrimination that 40 years from now would appear no different than "No colored people" policies do now. She shouldn't have been put in this situation in the first place.
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Old 08-12-2012, 04:21   #83
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If she does her job well then who cares who shes going down on?

Sexual orientation doesn't stop you from bleeding the same blood as everyone else in this country.

Sexual orientation doesn't stop you from putting lead in the enemies of the state.

/thread.
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Old 08-12-2012, 05:33   #84
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Re: OP. She's a queer. She is nothing else. She is due nothing else. She's a queer.
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Old 08-12-2012, 05:36   #85
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Originally Posted by Detectorist View Post
... I've seen a female officer fail twice and nothing happened to her. On top of that, I was threatened with disciplinary action of I looked into it further.
Did the threat of disciplinary action make you cease "looking into it further?"
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Old 08-12-2012, 05:43   #86
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So a whole load of GTers saying "it's OK that she lied on all her military documents for 25 years, because in year 26 we decided to accept what she was lying about." I'm surprised that at least one of those people was in the military for a while.

The general's supporters seem to think you have to agree that what the general did was morally wrong in order for it to affect her career. My opinion is that the fact that she was lying about it is enough to affect her career - reason? If she lied about anything else, it would affect her career. So, in effect, she got a special pass because she lied about being gay that she would not have gotten for any other lie.

Do we think speeding is a moral wrong? I doubt it - it isn't even an intentional act, many times. Yet it's something you have to tell the truth about on both enlistment documents and security clearance documents - even where the speeding ticket doesn't matter, the lie does. Same for police applications - you tell the truth about a speeding ticket and it's not a big deal; lie and you will not get the job. I remember an application for a large agency that really, really wanted to hire the applicant, because she was a black female applicant and did very well in all of the testing - however, after applying and right before he polygraph, she told them she needed to change her answer on drug use to say that she had smoked marijuana several years before. Due to the length of time, it was not an automatic disqualification, but lying on the application was and I couldn't find a legal way around it, even thought the agency wanted me to. Point being - what she lied about didn't disqualify her - the fact that she lied did. Now imagine congress trying to confirm the promotion of a straight general who had been caught lying about smoking marijuana. Not a chance.

The route to being an officer usually leads through an academy, OCS or ROTC. I believe all 3 follow the same honor code: "A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do."

An interesting point - when other generals are promoted, you read about their education and career achievements. All I can find in Gen. Smith's articles is that she's gay. So, the point of the thread, to me, was that Gen. Smith may be fine as far as her duties as an officer, but both the press and the Army are both applying a double standard in her favor.
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Old 08-12-2012, 05:45   #87
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Haven't read the entire thread yet...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NIB View Post
And how is her sexuality status a threat to National Security? Because she lied? ...

Breaking News: Gays have been serving in the military for longer than we've been alive.
Your admitted culpability and adherence to situational ethics, at least for certain individuals you served with, has been duly noted, but please don't gloss over the issue at hand.
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... Breaking News: Gays have been serving in the military for longer than we've been alive.
Have any of those homosexuals you mention ever sought a commission and then lied in order to acquire it? Do you think a heterosexual female should be able to acquire a commission by lying in order to get it?

Chute's made a certainly valid point, yet you chose to glibly gloss over it. Pity.
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Old 08-12-2012, 05:51   #88
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Originally Posted by Restless28 View Post
I think I have told you once before. If you have a beef with me, PM me. Don't be a punk and do it on the forum, but, if you do, I understand, as that's your style.
If I had a nickel for every time... (My family would be out of debt! )
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"Nothing we're gonna do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting or guarantee that [our gun ban legislation] will bring gun deaths down..." - VPOTUS Joe Biden
"Love 'Em All!!! Let Jehovah sort 'em out." - The Holy Bible
"It's a lot simpler to fool people than it is to convince them they've been fooled."

Last edited by Peace Warrior; 08-12-2012 at 05:51..
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Old 08-12-2012, 06:00   #89
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Originally Posted by youngdocglock View Post
Why do you disagree.

Give one GOOD valid reason why gay or lesbian people should not be allowed to serve.
Give one good reason why they are less human and less capable than you or I.

If you can honestly do that. With a Hardened response that gives Valid reason......then i may respect that answer.

But religion has nothing to do with the military. So dont try that one. It wont fly. I love my country. I was willing to die for it. As they are. to me......thats the only thing that matters.
Kind of reaching here aren't you? BTW- With your description of one of your superior ranks, I understand your personal reasoning, but the strident emotionalism you're projecting is baffling considering how you went to a "they are less than human" comment.

I don't find that type of analogy from those disagreeing with this promotion anywhere in this thread, and quite frankly, you haven't either.
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“After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it.” - William S. Burroughs
"Nothing we're gonna do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting or guarantee that [our gun ban legislation] will bring gun deaths down..." - VPOTUS Joe Biden
"Love 'Em All!!! Let Jehovah sort 'em out." - The Holy Bible
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Old 08-12-2012, 06:03   #90
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Originally Posted by Restless28 View Post
What evidence do you have that blacks fought harder than whites, other than some movies that may have led you to believe this?
Hey, if this theme gets expanded to "race," I've got WW-II's, 442nd Infantry Regiment as my ace in the hole.
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"Nothing we're gonna do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting or guarantee that [our gun ban legislation] will bring gun deaths down..." - VPOTUS Joe Biden
"Love 'Em All!!! Let Jehovah sort 'em out." - The Holy Bible
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Old 08-12-2012, 06:05   #91
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Yes I am. No I didn't. I disclosed everything including my misremembering weed use to Uncle Sam.
Good for you. If you're a Cop, you should never lie to another Cop, and this paradigm begins during the interview process. (I'm not an LEO.)
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"Nothing we're gonna do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting or guarantee that [our gun ban legislation] will bring gun deaths down..." - VPOTUS Joe Biden
"Love 'Em All!!! Let Jehovah sort 'em out." - The Holy Bible
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Old 08-12-2012, 06:39   #92
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What would McArthur, Patton, Bradley, Nimitz, Sgt. York and Audie Murphy think of this crap?
Well ....... they would crap ........
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Old 08-12-2012, 06:51   #93
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Re: OP. She's a queer. She is nothing else. She is due nothing else. She's a queer.
you keep throwing that word around, and I keep holding my tounge so I don't violate TOS. You are a coward and I guarantee you only call people queer behind their back or on the internet. I highly doubt you would have the balls to call me a queer if we were face to face. You are one of the worst people on GT and you make me sick.
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:14   #94
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Originally Posted by camelotkid View Post
you keep throwing that word around, and I keep holding my tounge so I don't violate TOS. You are a coward and I guarantee you only call people queer behind their back or on the internet. I highly doubt you would have the balls to call me a queer if we were face to face. You are one of the worst people on GT and you make me sick.
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:15   #95
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Good for her. Congratulations Ma'am!
I agree. It's amazing what some people choose to get worked up about.
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:30   #96
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I have been doing Security Clearance Paperwork since 1993 and sexual orientation is not on the application package. You do have to list family members and if I remember correctly if you are living with anyone. Had not lived with someone not family or married to so not positive. If she lied on that and lived with her Girlfriend then she lied on the form through admission.

If she had any clearance above Confidential and the assigned investigator could not figure out what was going on then they need some new investigators.

When I was in AIT for Army Intelligence one of my friends was a lesbian who joined based on DADT and they where giving her issues as the investigation for clearance turned it up as investigations do. It was a lot of back and forth for her. You had to have the clearance to finish school so I either they gave her interim or full. After a year of AIT she graduated and left for HI and I lost touch with her so not sure if the issue was still an issue after getting to her first assignment or not.

In the end one of the primary thing the clearance investigation is looking for is your likeliness to be blackmailed. Usually accomplished by someone learning something other important people to you don't know and they make you do things to avoid them finding out. In my friends case the army investigator knew and she knew they knew so it was mostly mitigated from a blackmail viewpoint. This was for clearance a few notches above Secret.

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I believe she may have had to lie about it again on her security clearance documents throughout the years.
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:39   #97
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Originally Posted by camelotkid View Post
you keep throwing that word around, and I keep holding my tounge so I don't violate TOS. You are a coward and I guarantee you only call people queer behind their back or on the internet. I highly doubt you would have the balls to call me a queer if we were face to face. You are one of the worst people on GT and you make me sick.
IIRC he's a minister.

Congratulations Gen. Smith!
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:45   #98
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
Yet it's something you have to tell the truth about on both enlistment documents and security clearance documents - even where the speeding ticket doesn't matter, the lie does.
This guy lied about his service eligibility too.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...cas-obit_N.htm

Do you think we should strip him of the honor, you know... because he lied on the application?
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:51   #99
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In the end one of the primary thing the clearance investigation is looking for is your likeliness to be blackmailed.
I thought it was moral purity and compliance with the sayings of Jesus???

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Old 08-12-2012, 07:53   #100
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
So a whole load of GTers saying "it's OK that she lied on all her military documents for 25 years, because in year 26 we decided to accept what she was lying about." I'm surprised that at least one of those people was in the military for a while.

The general's supporters seem to think you have to agree that what the general did was morally wrong in order for it to affect her career. My opinion is that the fact that she was lying about it is enough to affect her career - reason? If she lied about anything else, it would affect her career. So, in effect, she got a special pass because she lied about being gay that she would not have gotten for any other lie.

Do we think speeding is a moral wrong? I doubt it - it isn't even an intentional act, many times. Yet it's something you have to tell the truth about on both enlistment documents and security clearance documents - even where the speeding ticket doesn't matter, the lie does. Same for police applications - you tell the truth about a speeding ticket and it's not a big deal; lie and you will not get the job. I remember an application for a large agency that really, really wanted to hire the applicant, because she was a black female applicant and did very well in all of the testing - however, after applying and right before he polygraph, she told them she needed to change her answer on drug use to say that she had smoked marijuana several years before. Due to the length of time, it was not an automatic disqualification, but lying on the application was and I couldn't find a legal way around it, even thought the agency wanted me to. Point being - what she lied about didn't disqualify her - the fact that she lied did. Now imagine congress trying to confirm the promotion of a straight general who had been caught lying about smoking marijuana. Not a chance.

The route to being an officer usually leads through an academy, OCS or ROTC. I believe all 3 follow the same honor code: "A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do."

An interesting point - when other generals are promoted, you read about their education and career achievements. All I can find in Gen. Smith's articles is that she's gay. So, the point of the thread, to me, was that Gen. Smith may be fine as far as her duties as an officer, but both the press and the Army are both applying a double standard in her favor.
Bren,

I fully understand your point of view, and respect it. However, I believe that there are questions and restrictions which are inherently immoral / unethical and lying about them is not morally wrong. As I said earlier, 70 years ago we could have the same conversation about someone who lied about their race. I am sure today you wouldn't even think of bringing it up. This is different from lying about your acts (drug use, etc.) because you can control your acts; you can't control your biology, and it has nothing to do with one's ability to fight for their country.
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