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Old 11-05-2012, 16:18   #141
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Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Maybe. Maybe not.

Handgun rounds out of handguns are weak and ineffective. That's just the way it is.
I concur. Handgun bullets (short of .44 Magnums) have a hard time getting through heavy clothing and sternums/ribs. I am always aware of this sad fact whenever I put my G17 on.
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Old 11-05-2012, 19:02   #142
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Originally Posted by fredj338
If forced to make small holes, then I want the biggest small holes I can get. 45acp all day everyday for FMJ. Thre is a reason for double stack 9mm in the military, you will likely need more rounds.









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Old 11-05-2012, 23:49   #143
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It still seems as if everyone ignored the original post.
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:42   #144
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It still seems as if everyone ignored the original post.
That's because the original post is so ignorable - FMJRN for self-defense. That idea went obsolete decades ago. JHPs are legal in all 50 states (for now).
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Old 11-07-2012, 13:42   #145
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Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
That's because the original post is so ignorable - FMJRN for self-defense. That idea went obsolete decades ago. JHPs are legal in all 50 states (for now).

Who said that FMJ was absolete ? I would not use them in any caliber besides my M1911 45acp. But I do carry them in the 45acp, and know others that do as well in this caliber... They do far more damage than you might imagine hoss.








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Old 11-07-2012, 13:43   #146
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CanyonMan
He said JHP are legal in all 50 states. Not illegal.

But I don't believe they are. Ask New Jersey.
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Old 11-07-2012, 13:48   #147
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Originally Posted by Fear Night View Post
I like how the 9mm guys tout shot placement, but in the same breath also tout how they can carry more rounds. Wouldn't the first negate the need for the second?

And no, a .355" size hole is NOT the same as a .45" size hole in the heart. Yes, they will both prove fatal, but the bigger hole will yield quicker blood loss, and quicker incapacitation.

I choose .45ACP for FMJ only carry. In real life, I carry a single stack 9mm with JHP.
Me, too. I have great respect for the .45, but I carry a 9mm G17.
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Old 11-07-2012, 13:48   #148
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9mm all day any day. Lighter recoil makes it much more controllable and much easier to shoot accurately under duress, Much more ammo capacity which is good since. criminals commit crimes in groups more than they do alone. Id rather have 15+1 9mm when facing 3 robbers then 8+1 45acp.
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No offense but if you need 15+1 rounds you need more time at the range
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Old 11-07-2012, 13:49   #149
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He said JHP are legal in all 50 states. Not illegal.

But I don't believe they are. Ask New Jersey.

61 year old eyes !

Thanks amigo, I"ll go back and fix my mess !


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Old 11-07-2012, 14:05   #150
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Originally Posted by maximus1079 View Post
No offense but if you need 15+1 rounds you need more time at the range
Can I borrow your crystal ball?

Handguns are weak and ineffective, and you may require many shots, and many hits, to stop a single attacker.

You may face multiple attackers.

As they say...nobody ever complained about having too much ammunition. (weight, in this case, should not be a factor, we're not talking about full battle rattle with a rifle, 210 rounds, a pistol with mags, armour, other equipment, etc)
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Old 11-07-2012, 15:56   #151
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Sorry

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Originally Posted by Warp View Post
He said JHP are legal in all 50 states. Not illegal.

But I don't believe they are. Ask New Jersey.
I forgot about the Peoples Republic of New Jersey.
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Old 11-07-2012, 21:30   #152
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They do far more damage than you might imagine hoss.
So based on the OP, the 9mm does more damage than anyone could ever imagine? I respect the .45 and I carry a 1911 every once in a while. But I think some people have a hard time admitting that in some circumstances the 9mm can outperform the .45ACP.
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Old 11-08-2012, 02:46   #153
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Originally Posted by Glock19Fan View Post
But I think some people have a hard time admitting that in some circumstances the 9mm can outperform the .45ACP.
When?
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:03   #154
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When?
I guess when over-penetration is needed.
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Old 11-08-2012, 20:25   #155
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When?
Lets compare the two bullets I posted in the original post.

.45ACP 230 grain FMJ @ 850 FPS -370FPE.
9mm 124 grain NATO FMJ @ 1200 FPS. 400 FPE.

So not only does the 9mm have more energy, it also cuased more damage in the gelatin. There is no need to argue the credibility of the medium becuase they were both shot at the same time. Fair is fair.

The 9mm outperformed the .45ACP in the test.
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Old 11-08-2012, 21:05   #156
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Originally Posted by Glock19Fan View Post
Lets compare the two bullets I posted in the original post.

.45ACP 230 grain FMJ @ 850 FPS -370FPE.
9mm 124 grain NATO FMJ @ 1200 FPS. 400 FPE.

So not only does the 9mm have more energy, it also cuased more damage in the gelatin. There is no need to argue the credibility of the medium becuase they were both shot at the same time. Fair is fair.

The 9mm outperformed the .45ACP in the test.
Ballistics chart for commercial 9mm loadings:
http://www.ballistics101.com/9mm.php

Most of the non-boutiuqe loads with 124 FMJ run in the mid 300s in terms of muzzle energy. Underwood runs 413, BuffaloBores 124 FMJ runs 465 ft lbs. Those would be considered +P, so if we're going to use 9mm +P ammo for the comparison, it's only fair to use +P .45 too, or use non-+P 9mm ammo specs.
And, the 124 gr is in the middle of the weight range for 9mm, so instead of using 230 gr .45 ACP, a more accurate comparison would be 200 gr .45, since both are mid-range bullets for their calibers).

http://www.ballistics101.com/45_acp.php

Speer offers a non +P 200 gr FMJ @975 FPS for 422 ft/lbs.

Federal offers a 230 gr FMJ that does 890 fps for 404 ft-lbs

The Federal load equals the NATO load you listed for 9mm, and betters most commercial 9mm FMJ, and the Speer slightly tops it. But most commerical 9mm 124 FMJ is going to fall in the mid-300 ft-lb range, same as most 230 gr .45, if we want to compare those 2 weights. (Commercial 200 gr .45 is going to have a higher ME than the 124 9mm load you listed. 147 gr 9mm would more closely compare to heavy-for-caliber 230 gr .45 ammo, and runs considerably lower in terms of muzzle energy.)

But the ME doesn't tell the whole story, because for self-defense, the mass of the .45 bullet makes it superior. Why? Because to stop a threat, as has been stated, shot placement is key, to hit vitals or CNS, both of which are protected by bone. It takes mass to punch through bone, not velocity. So that 230 gr lump of lead is going to plow right through rib cage, shielding arm, skull, whatever, and hit whatever vitals are behind it. College physics was too long ago, so correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, kinetic energy is mass times velocity squared, and once the bullet hits, the velocity drops by the inverse. A bullet that gets its KE from high mass will maintain it's momentum longer after impact than a lighter bullet at higher velocity. So a lighter bullet is more easily deflected by bone than a heavier one.

By those 2 different methods, greater ME and greater mass, the .45 wins.

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Old 11-08-2012, 22:57   #157
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So based on the OP, the 9mm does more damage than anyone could ever imagine? I respect the .45 and I carry a 1911 every once in a while. But I think some people have a hard time admitting that in some circumstances the 9mm can outperform the .45ACP.

Sorry amigo. I don't understand your first question here

I will say I cannot agree that the 9mm fmj will do more damage in the human body than a 230gr chunk of 45acp FMJ. It has been my observation in life (let the reader understand) that the 45acp even in a FMJ, does considerable damage on a flesh and blood target, 'let's say like animals....' just for a example

The very first Post on this thread ask which would I choose if I had to pick a FMJ for SD. A 9mm FMJ, or a 45acp out of a M1911 in FMJ ?

I said this on page #6, post #145 of this thread:


Quote:
CanyonMan said:
Who said that FMJ was absolete ? I would not use them in any caliber besides my M1911 45acp. But I do carry them in the 45acp, and know others that do as well in this caliber... They do far more damage than you might imagine hoss


Reffering to the 45acp being obsolete, as someone else suggested they were. I responded buy saying who said so ?

I then, (as you can see above here) said, they, (the 45acp FMJ) will do far more damage than you may imagine !




Not sure what your getting at or maybe don't understand. 'Maybe I'm not getting your drift.' Seems real clear to me though ! But then I am dog tired, had a very hard and long day, and am on 2 cylinders at present .





Be safe !











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Old 11-09-2012, 00:41   #158
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Originally Posted by digilo View Post
Ballistics chart for commercial 9mm loadings:
http://www.ballistics101.com/9mm.php

Most of the non-boutiuqe loads :
There were no boutique loads mentioned here. Both were military spec ammunition. The question was originally intended as a comparision of 9mm vs .45ACP for military use.

High velocity bullets are known for penetrating hard targets better than low velocity, heavy bullets. Take for example, the .30-06 vs .45-70. Against a steel plate, the .30-06 will win every day. Against deer, the .30-06 is the better cartridge (thats just my opinion though). But against grizzly and other dangerous game, the .45-70 shines. I truely dont think the .45ACP offers any advantage in any configuration to justify the loss of capacity. Again, that is just my opinion.

I know that was an odd comparision, but in my opinion the human body is not much of a barrier for either. Again, I have shot plenty of both cartridges, and do not believe that there is a significant difference between the two to argue over.

And for what its worth, BRASSFETCHER recommends, after numerous 9mm vs .45 high speed videos, the 9mm over the .45ACP.
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Old 11-09-2012, 00:48   #159
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Sorry amigo. I don't understand your first question here
CanyonMan
My fault, it may not be clear but I was stating that if the .45ACP does a considerable amount of damage, you could conclude from my test that the 9mm>.45ACP.

I am not sure if it is still available, but Stephen A Camp has some very impressive results against deer with the 9mm JHP.

Also, HogHead videos off youtube show the 9mm JHP are excellent performers.

This is a FMJ vs FMJ thread, I understand that. But I guess from my training I have gained great confidence in the 9mm in various platforms.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:25   #160
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And for what its worth, BRASSFETCHER recommends, after numerous 9mm vs .45 high speed videos, the 9mm over the .45ACP.
Do you happen to have a link to that recommendation? I don't feel like poking around their site right now.
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