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Old 11-07-2012, 14:56   #151
SCmasterblaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
He said JHP are legal in all 50 states. Not illegal.

But I don't believe they are. Ask New Jersey.
I forgot about the Peoples Republic of New Jersey.
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Old 11-07-2012, 20:30   #152
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Originally Posted by CanyonMan View Post
They do far more damage than you might imagine hoss.
So based on the OP, the 9mm does more damage than anyone could ever imagine? I respect the .45 and I carry a 1911 every once in a while. But I think some people have a hard time admitting that in some circumstances the 9mm can outperform the .45ACP.
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:46   #153
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Originally Posted by Glock19Fan View Post
But I think some people have a hard time admitting that in some circumstances the 9mm can outperform the .45ACP.
When?
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:03   #154
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When?
I guess when over-penetration is needed.
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Old 11-08-2012, 19:25   #155
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Originally Posted by digilo View Post
When?
Lets compare the two bullets I posted in the original post.

.45ACP 230 grain FMJ @ 850 FPS -370FPE.
9mm 124 grain NATO FMJ @ 1200 FPS. 400 FPE.

So not only does the 9mm have more energy, it also cuased more damage in the gelatin. There is no need to argue the credibility of the medium becuase they were both shot at the same time. Fair is fair.

The 9mm outperformed the .45ACP in the test.
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Old 11-08-2012, 20:05   #156
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Originally Posted by Glock19Fan View Post
Lets compare the two bullets I posted in the original post.

.45ACP 230 grain FMJ @ 850 FPS -370FPE.
9mm 124 grain NATO FMJ @ 1200 FPS. 400 FPE.

So not only does the 9mm have more energy, it also cuased more damage in the gelatin. There is no need to argue the credibility of the medium becuase they were both shot at the same time. Fair is fair.

The 9mm outperformed the .45ACP in the test.
Ballistics chart for commercial 9mm loadings:
http://www.ballistics101.com/9mm.php

Most of the non-boutiuqe loads with 124 FMJ run in the mid 300s in terms of muzzle energy. Underwood runs 413, BuffaloBores 124 FMJ runs 465 ft lbs. Those would be considered +P, so if we're going to use 9mm +P ammo for the comparison, it's only fair to use +P .45 too, or use non-+P 9mm ammo specs.
And, the 124 gr is in the middle of the weight range for 9mm, so instead of using 230 gr .45 ACP, a more accurate comparison would be 200 gr .45, since both are mid-range bullets for their calibers).

http://www.ballistics101.com/45_acp.php

Speer offers a non +P 200 gr FMJ @975 FPS for 422 ft/lbs.

Federal offers a 230 gr FMJ that does 890 fps for 404 ft-lbs

The Federal load equals the NATO load you listed for 9mm, and betters most commercial 9mm FMJ, and the Speer slightly tops it. But most commerical 9mm 124 FMJ is going to fall in the mid-300 ft-lb range, same as most 230 gr .45, if we want to compare those 2 weights. (Commercial 200 gr .45 is going to have a higher ME than the 124 9mm load you listed. 147 gr 9mm would more closely compare to heavy-for-caliber 230 gr .45 ammo, and runs considerably lower in terms of muzzle energy.)

But the ME doesn't tell the whole story, because for self-defense, the mass of the .45 bullet makes it superior. Why? Because to stop a threat, as has been stated, shot placement is key, to hit vitals or CNS, both of which are protected by bone. It takes mass to punch through bone, not velocity. So that 230 gr lump of lead is going to plow right through rib cage, shielding arm, skull, whatever, and hit whatever vitals are behind it. College physics was too long ago, so correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, kinetic energy is mass times velocity squared, and once the bullet hits, the velocity drops by the inverse. A bullet that gets its KE from high mass will maintain it's momentum longer after impact than a lighter bullet at higher velocity. So a lighter bullet is more easily deflected by bone than a heavier one.

By those 2 different methods, greater ME and greater mass, the .45 wins.

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Old 11-08-2012, 21:57   #157
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Originally Posted by Glock19Fan View Post
So based on the OP, the 9mm does more damage than anyone could ever imagine? I respect the .45 and I carry a 1911 every once in a while. But I think some people have a hard time admitting that in some circumstances the 9mm can outperform the .45ACP.

Sorry amigo. I don't understand your first question here

I will say I cannot agree that the 9mm fmj will do more damage in the human body than a 230gr chunk of 45acp FMJ. It has been my observation in life (let the reader understand) that the 45acp even in a FMJ, does considerable damage on a flesh and blood target, 'let's say like animals....' just for a example

The very first Post on this thread ask which would I choose if I had to pick a FMJ for SD. A 9mm FMJ, or a 45acp out of a M1911 in FMJ ?

I said this on page #6, post #145 of this thread:


Quote:
CanyonMan said:
Who said that FMJ was absolete ? I would not use them in any caliber besides my M1911 45acp. But I do carry them in the 45acp, and know others that do as well in this caliber... They do far more damage than you might imagine hoss


Reffering to the 45acp being obsolete, as someone else suggested they were. I responded buy saying who said so ?

I then, (as you can see above here) said, they, (the 45acp FMJ) will do far more damage than you may imagine !




Not sure what your getting at or maybe don't understand. 'Maybe I'm not getting your drift.' Seems real clear to me though ! But then I am dog tired, had a very hard and long day, and am on 2 cylinders at present .





Be safe !











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Old 11-08-2012, 23:41   #158
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Originally Posted by digilo View Post
Ballistics chart for commercial 9mm loadings:
http://www.ballistics101.com/9mm.php

Most of the non-boutiuqe loads :
There were no boutique loads mentioned here. Both were military spec ammunition. The question was originally intended as a comparision of 9mm vs .45ACP for military use.

High velocity bullets are known for penetrating hard targets better than low velocity, heavy bullets. Take for example, the .30-06 vs .45-70. Against a steel plate, the .30-06 will win every day. Against deer, the .30-06 is the better cartridge (thats just my opinion though). But against grizzly and other dangerous game, the .45-70 shines. I truely dont think the .45ACP offers any advantage in any configuration to justify the loss of capacity. Again, that is just my opinion.

I know that was an odd comparision, but in my opinion the human body is not much of a barrier for either. Again, I have shot plenty of both cartridges, and do not believe that there is a significant difference between the two to argue over.

And for what its worth, BRASSFETCHER recommends, after numerous 9mm vs .45 high speed videos, the 9mm over the .45ACP.
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Old 11-08-2012, 23:48   #159
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Sorry amigo. I don't understand your first question here
CanyonMan
My fault, it may not be clear but I was stating that if the .45ACP does a considerable amount of damage, you could conclude from my test that the 9mm>.45ACP.

I am not sure if it is still available, but Stephen A Camp has some very impressive results against deer with the 9mm JHP.

Also, HogHead videos off youtube show the 9mm JHP are excellent performers.

This is a FMJ vs FMJ thread, I understand that. But I guess from my training I have gained great confidence in the 9mm in various platforms.
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:25   #160
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Originally Posted by Glock19Fan View Post
And for what its worth, BRASSFETCHER recommends, after numerous 9mm vs .45 high speed videos, the 9mm over the .45ACP.
Do you happen to have a link to that recommendation? I don't feel like poking around their site right now.
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:28   #161
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I really don't see 9 or 45 passing through 2 people, even in FMJ. Even if it gets through the first person, it won't have enough umph to really do much to the second.
Isn't passing through ONE person bad enough??
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:32   #162
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Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
JHPs are legal in all 50 states (for now).
They're not in NJ. You can apparently use them at the range but don't use them for self-defense.
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:54   #163
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They're not in NJ. You can apparently use them at the range but don't use them for self-defense.
The law does not prevent you from buying, transporting, possessing, or using (at the range, or in your home for self defense) HPs. It is illegal to use them in the commission of a crime.

However, due to NJ's restrictive laws, a lot of activities that are perfectly legal across the Delaware (concealed carry, for instance) are crimes in NJ.

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Old 11-09-2012, 16:12   #164
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Do you happen to have a link to that recommendation? I don't feel like poking around their site right now.
It was previously on their 9mm vs. 45ACP section, but it appears they took it off recently.

Im sure an email would confirm this.
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Old 11-09-2012, 16:49   #165
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They're not in NJ. You can apparently use them at the range but don't use them for self-defense.
Crazy NJ laws.
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Old 11-09-2012, 17:14   #166
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Originally Posted by Glock19Fan View Post
There were no boutique loads mentioned here. Both were military spec ammunition. The question was originally intended as a comparision of 9mm vs .45ACP for military use.

High velocity bullets are known for penetrating hard targets better than low velocity, heavy bullets. Take for example, the .30-06 vs .45-70. Against a steel plate, the .30-06 will win every day. Against deer, the .30-06 is the better cartridge (thats just my opinion though). But against grizzly and other dangerous game, the .45-70 shines. I truely dont think the .45ACP offers any advantage in any configuration to justify the loss of capacity. Again, that is just my opinion.

I know that was an odd comparision, but in my opinion the human body is not much of a barrier for either. Again, I have shot plenty of both cartridges, and do not believe that there is a significant difference between the two to argue over.

And for what its worth, BRASSFETCHER recommends, after numerous 9mm vs .45 high speed videos, the 9mm over the .45ACP.
I saw no mention of any military spec in the original question, but it's your thread. I still think it's flawed to compare a +P 9mm round to a heavy-for-caliber standard pressure .45 round. Pit a mid-weight 9mm, such as 124, in +P, against a mid-weight .45, such as 185 or 200, in +P, and the .45 shows a higher ME.

The human body is exactly such a barrier, hence my preference for heavy bullets that plow through the protective bone that surrounds the rib cage, or the skull. Light fast bullets lack the momentum to penetrate bone and keep going and strike vitals.

I will agree with you on this: the 9mm has the potential, as you said, to disrupt soft tissue via tumble, IF you can get it past the ribs into the torso; the 45's greater mass means it will tumble later in the medium than the lighter 9mm round, making it more likely to exit before tumbling than the lighter 9mm. But, that's IF you can get that 9mm round past the ribs, sternum, etc.
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Old 11-09-2012, 22:41   #167
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Originally Posted by The Fist Of Goodness View Post
The law does not prevent you from buying, transporting, possessing, or using (at the range, or in your home for self defense) HPs. It is illegal to use them in the commission of a crime.

However, due to NJ's restrictive laws, a lot of activities that are perfectly legal across the Delaware (concealed carry, for instance) are crimes in NJ.

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Well it's my understanding that self-defense in NJ is essentially a crime.
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Old 11-10-2012, 04:42   #168
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.32 or a .380, yes.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:51   #169
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Who said that FMJ was absolete ? I would not use them in any caliber besides my M1911 45acp. But I do carry them in the 45acp, and know others that do as well in this caliber... They do far more damage than you might imagine hoss.








CanyonMan

Well, maybe not obsolete, but mainly superseded by a superior bullet style. The experimentation started with hollow points many decades ago.
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:23   #170
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Well, maybe not obsolete, but mainly superseded by a superior bullet style. The experimentation started with hollow points many decades ago.

I understand that amigo.....

I just said they (45acp FMJ's) do more damage than some folks give them credit for !

Perhaps they would be a good round to shoot that stinkin "Chevy Pop up Ad," at the bottom of my screen that jumps up every few seconds. I feel like i am at a carnaval shooting gallery !!! Ha.



Stay safe !



Adios on this one.....









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Old 11-14-2012, 12:22   #171
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I understand that amigo.....

I just said they (45acp FMJ's) do more damage than some folks give them credit for !

Perhaps they would be a good round to shoot that stinkin "Chevy Pop up Ad," at the bottom of my screen that jumps up every few seconds. I feel like i am at a carnaval shooting gallery !!! Ha.



Stay safe !




Adios on this one.....







CM



You got that right, for sure. If I had to choose between .45 ACP hardball and 9mm JHP, I'd take the .45 for sure.
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:37   #172
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Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
If I had to choose between .45 ACP hardball and 9mm JHP, I'd take the .45 for sure.
You would take .45 ACP FMJ over 9mm JHP?

Then why do you carry a 9mm?
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Old 11-14-2012, 13:13   #173
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You would take .45 ACP FMJ over 9mm JHP?

Then why do you carry a 9mm?
Because my 9mm is a Glock 17 - a highly-reliable, lightweight, and accurate pistol - and very concealable (compared to a G21 that is). And it holds 17 cartridges, over twice as many as an M1911A1.
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Old 11-14-2012, 13:15   #174
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Because my 9mm is a Glock 17 - a highly-reliable, lightweight, and accurate pistol - and very concealable (compared to a G21 that is). And it holds 17 cartridges, over twice as many as an M1911A1.
Then it would seem that your previous statement about what you would select is not accurate.
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Old 11-14-2012, 14:27   #175
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Then it would seem that your previous statement about what you would select is not accurate.
If I had the money, I would get and carry a ,45 ACP G36 with CorBon 200gr loads. But I don't have the money, so I stay with my 1989-purchased G17. It will work if I shoot straight.
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