Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-12-2012, 21:46   #81
MGman
Senior Member
 
MGman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Which is why the whole "Think it isn't effective for self defense? Well then, go stand in front of it" thing is so bogus.

BTW: If you stand in front of a .22lr to the chest at 10 yards you are looking at a very real possibility of death, not simply pain.
I couldn't agree more.
MGman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2012, 23:27   #82
Poohgyrr
trout fear me!
 
Poohgyrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Sutter's Fort
Posts: 1,174


Quote:
Originally Posted by CanyonMan View Post
I don't know if this is your gun or not amigo, but it is very sweet ! CM
Unfortunately not. But yes it is sweet!
__________________
Snoopy Lives!! Luke 22:36 Ephesians 4:26-32
357Sig Club #3531 S&W Club #10 BHP Club #35
"Life brings both sorrows and joys alike. It is what a man does with them - not what they do to him - that is the true test of his mettle." T. Roosevelt
Poohgyrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2012, 07:27   #83
Glockbuster
Senior Member
 
Glockbuster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Middle America
Posts: 1,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterWizard View Post
Penetrating yes. But that penetration may also come with deflection.

And as far as human bodies, the guy below, who worked in morgue, witnessing thousands of autopsies of gun shot victims, verifies with first hand experience that .45 is preferred over 9mm because it is less likely to deflect and will most likely penetrate where you are aiming, not hit bone at some weird angle, take a turn and zip out of the body, causing little damage ... or simply stop short.

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20B...a%20morgue.htm

Everyone likes to be an armchair ballistics expert, but I tend to listen to experts with real-life experience and I glean my observations from real ballistics tests, not what "I heard someone say." .

I would not be so gullible.

Thousands of autopsies ? I have read the posts and it all sounds pretty much as big BS to me. His findings contrast greatly with what I have seen and the evidence I have read. Trust me, not trying to bother you just better orient you.

I can tell you for sure there are plenty of people dead and die quickly with 9 mm. Even with FMJ.

Last edited by Glockbuster; 08-13-2012 at 07:29..
Glockbuster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2012, 10:37   #84
mgentry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 701
The military has used FMJ rounds for years - they work. Are they as effective as some of the new bullets on the market? - no.
__________________
Retired AF Pilot
NRA Life Member
Garand Collectors Association
mgentry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2012, 15:56   #85
MGman
Senior Member
 
MGman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgentry View Post
The military has used FMJ rounds for years - they work. Are they as effective as some of the new bullets on the market? - no.
This above.
MGman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2012, 17:21   #86
WinterWizard
Senior Member
 
WinterWizard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
Ah ha! So it is just something you heard. I require actual proof, not just someone said it on some other forum.
WinterWizard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 05:16   #87
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 36,822
0.10" bigger holes, or twice as many holes? It comes out about even or a little in favor of 9mm.
__________________
Quote:
This is the internet - you will never learn to shoot here.
- Me, 2014.

Last edited by Bren; 10-23-2012 at 05:17..
Bren is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 06:33   #88
Happypuppy
Senior Member
 
Happypuppy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: North Puget Sound, WA
Posts: 735
It seems that the USA military no longer uses only FMJ. Most of the time they do due to the material (armor) that the may have to shoot through. During the wars with Iraq and currently in Afghanistan expanding bullets have and are being used. Ask some people that were deployed there for confirmation


"International armed conflicts
The prohibition in respect of international armed conflicts was introduced in 1899 by the Hague Declaration concerning Expanding Bullets in reaction to the development of the so-called “dum-dum” bullet for use in military rifles.[1] The Declaration was ratified or acceded to by 28 States in the early years of the 20th century and 6 States succeeded to the Declaration in the second half of the 20th century.[2] The use of expanding bullets is listed as a war crime in the Statute of the International Criminal Court.[3] The prohibition has also been included in other instruments.[4]
The prohibition of expanding bullets is set forth in numerous military manuals.[5] The use of expanding bullets in armed conflict is an offence under the legislation of many States.[6] The prohibition is also supported by official statements and other practice.[7] This practice includes that of many States which are not party to the Hague Declaration.[8]
Practice is in conformity with the prohibition and no State has asserted that it would be lawful to use such ammunition. The only exception to a complete prohibition of the use of expanding bullets is possibly the practice of the United States, although it is ambiguous. While several of its military manuals prohibit the use of expanding bullets,[9] three legal reviews of ammunition and weapons by the US Department of the Army state that the United States will adhere to the Hague Declaration to the extent that the rule is consistent with Article 23(e) of the 1907 Hague Regulations, i.e. the prohibition of weapons causing unnecessary suffering.[10] Hence, the use of expanding ammunition is lawful according to the United States if there is “a clear showing of military necessity for its use”.[11] However, during the negotiation of the Statute of the International Criminal Court in 1998, the United States did not contest the criminality of the use of expanding ammunition."

http://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/en.../v1_rul_rule77



Sent via Messenger Pigeon
Happypuppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 10:15   #89
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,034
I'd use the .45 ball. It worked for Sgt. York way back in WWI.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 11:30   #90
Glock19Fan
Cool Guy
 
Glock19Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 2,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happypuppy View Post
It seems that the USA military no longer uses only FMJ. Most of the time they do due to the material (armor) that the may have to shoot through. During the wars with Iraq and currently in Afghanistan expanding bullets have and are being used. Ask some people that were deployed there for confirmation
I just returned from Afghanistan in June. This statement is INcorrect. The majority of soldiers are still getting issued M882 9mm ammunition and either M855 or M855A1 ammunition. Hollow points are only (occasionally) issued to Special Operations units, or occasionally in 7.62 as match grade ammunition.
__________________
Never mistake Kindness for Weakness
Glock19Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 12:53   #91
JW1178
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,020
FMJ had advantages is some situations. For a typical SD situation, it is not ideal, but it does have it's place. In a SHTF situation, I think the 124 ,NATO spec rounds would be a very good choice due to the penetration advantage, especially through barriers. Really, if it's a fatal shot it won't matter if it's FMJ or JHP, it will just take longer for the smaller hole to leak out, except might have an overall better effect with 2 holes. However, on the street or in home defense, the JHP had the clear advantage.

A 230 .45 wrecking ball has a good reputation for being damaging.
JW1178 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 12:57   #92
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 15,348
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGman View Post
Yes FMJ is fine for self defense especially if you pistol doesn't feed JHP properly.

My Kahr CM9 doesn't feed well with Gold Dot JHPs. The profile is larger and touches the slide release lever thereby causing premature slide lockback. FMJs tend to have "pointer" profiles and therefore leave space between the bullet tip and the slide release lever.

The military uses FMJ (I know because of the Geneva convention or something or other about international guidelines of warfare)
Point is..it gets the job done though for them.

As far as 1911's, most work best with FMJ. I only use FMJ .45ACP for mine.

And then there is the penetration argument..dry wall, neighbor collateral damage etc etc.
A bullet any bullet stands a good chance of going through a flimsy drywall you can't convince me otherwise.

Remember just because its a JHP doesn't guarantee I'll expand as advertised.

So the wrap up...
Is FMJ fine for selfdefense? YES!

I challenge anyone that discredits FMJ to take a 9mm FMJ to the chest with only a T-shirt on from 10 yards out. Let me know if it works or not, I'd be curious.

Oh, and it may not be a 1 stop shot, but man...you're gonna give those doctors a workout!
Uh, the military does NOT like 9mm FMJ.

You really think a .355" hole 28 inches long is a good stopper?

And I wouldn't want to get shot with a .22 either. What does that prove about the stopping power of the cartridge? Absolutely nothing.
cowboy1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 13:04   #93
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 15,348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
0.10" bigger holes, or twice as many holes? It comes out about even or a little in favor of 9mm.
Wow, you can achieve 100% hit rate? And you can shoot 9mm twice as fast while doing that?

And bullets aren't one-dimensional. A 9mm only has 62% of the surface area of a .45.

cowboy1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 13:11   #94
M 7
Senior Member
 
M 7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,110
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post

You really think a .355" hole 28 inches long is a good stopper?
It all depends on where that .355 x 28 inch long hole is.
__________________
For those who CCW:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by M 7; 10-23-2012 at 13:13..
M 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 13:18   #95
t4terrific
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Because that's generally where your local gun shop stops, and where legal ownership by a private citizen stops.

Duh.
Nope. They sell a whole lot more than just two calibers, and the 45 Auto isn't the baddest of them. Neither is the 9mm.
t4terrific is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 13:21   #96
t4terrific
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanyonMan View Post
I been using FMJ 230gr in M1911 For a very loooong time. Got no problem with it and never have, and NO it does NOT pass through two and three people !!

It is my EDC "in town gun". I also like and use at times WW PDX1 230gr, and 230gr XTP's.

This is the 'only caliber' I would use FMJ in, under 'normal every day situations...'






CM
Your 1911 won't feed hollow points, eh?
t4terrific is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 13:29   #97
unit1069
Senior Member
 
unit1069's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: So. Central US
Posts: 8,828
Quote:
FMJ for Self Defense?
That is the question, right?

For self-defense JHP ammo is the choice of LEO and government agencies because of it's greater wounding capability while simultaneously lessening the chance of pass-through rounds that might injure or kill innocents.

If JHP is the overwhelming choice of LEO/govt. agencies I'm certain it's the right choice for me. I'd only carry FMJ in a pistol that was either of an inferior caliber or wouldn't reliably shoot JHP ammo.
__________________
Rocket Scientist

Last edited by unit1069; 10-23-2012 at 13:34..
unit1069 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 14:00   #98
Warp
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
 
Warp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NE of Atlanta
Posts: 30,209
Quote:
Originally Posted by t4terrific View Post
Nope. They sell a whole lot more than just two calibers, and the 45 Auto isn't the baddest of them. Neither is the 9mm.
I have no idea what you think you are talking about, but I said .45 ACP doesn't make a big hole, rifles and shotguns make big holes.

You got pointless and said why stop there while posting an image of a naval gun.

As I said...rifles and shotguns make big holes, not handgun calibers out of handguns.
__________________
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

I HIGHLY recommend Google Chrome and Adblock to all world wide web users. (I would have left GT a long time ago without these extensions!)

Last edited by Warp; 10-23-2012 at 14:00..
Warp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 15:33   #99
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 36,822
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
Wow, you can achieve 100% hit rate? And you can shoot 9mm twice as fast while doing that?

And bullets aren't one-dimensional. A 9mm only has 62% of the surface area of a .45.

Huh? WTF?

What I posted had nothing to do with hit rate - not even hinted at. If that was a factor, then it would obviously favor the 9mm even more.

Surface area of the bullet also has nothing to do with what I'm talking about - the permanent wound cavity size is relevant to what I said about caliber. Surface are could imply a greater mass, but that's about all - in your apparently recent learning about guns an ammunition, have you seen a lot of discussion of the wounding effects of "bullet surface area"?

That was a pretty silly response - whatever it was supposed to mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
Uh, the military does NOT like 9mm FMJ.
You know that because...?

Nobody I know really cares - we use pistols when we are required to be armed but don't really need to be.

Quote:
You really think a .355" hole 28 inches long is a good stopper?
Well, that means at .355 hole all the way through a person damaging everything in its path. As opposed to a .452 hole? Assuming it also goes all the way through, take a look at a ruler and see how little difference that .097" makes - as opposed to making more holes in more places with the 9mm. In some spots, that little extra from the ,45 will help, but so will extra holes.
__________________
Quote:
This is the internet - you will never learn to shoot here.
- Me, 2014.

Last edited by Bren; 10-23-2012 at 15:40..
Bren is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 18:27   #100
Glock19Fan
Cool Guy
 
Glock19Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 2,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
Uh, the military does NOT like 9mm FMJ.

You really think a .355" hole 28 inches long is a good stopper?
.
The military DOES like 9mm. Just not the platform (Beretta M9).

Im still thinking that most people DID NOT read the original post. The wounding potential of the 9mm and .45 are so close that it doesnt make sense not to go with the 9mm assuming higher capacity.

Most firefights are DEFINED by tactics, followed by firepower.
__________________
Never mistake Kindness for Weakness
Glock19Fan is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:58.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,045
264 Members
781 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31