[Inebriated]

If you don't hit a vital organ or structure, you will not stop a fight. Simple as that. I don't care if it's with a .45 ACP that expanded to 3 FEET, if you miss vitals, you aren't winning. Handguns (9mm, .40, .45) don't do a thing but poke holes, JHP or not, and a .357" hole in the Aorta is just as effective as a .45" hole. I would prefer to use something designed to penetrate, and get to what it needs to put a hole in, than use something designed to STOP MOVING inside the body. So if I didn't have to worry about every round going passing through a bad guy, and potentially wounding someone innocent, I would carry FMJ and be just as content, if not more.

[RichardB]

I don't know that the big hole, small hole theory has much to do with reality.

Marshal & Sanow developed data which depicts 9mm FMJ and 45ACP FMJ as roughly comparable in stopping power (I don't sweat the small % of difference). Their numbers shattered the balloons of others and the war was on.

Decades later another cop, Greg Ellifritz, has published his own numbers, using different criteria and he also finds the 45 and 9mm Parabellum are not that far apart. Ellifritz's bottom line is: For serious fighting use a rifle or shotgun.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/printable/node/7866

Excerpts of Ellifritz's paper.

9mm Luger
# of people shot - 456
# of hits - 1121
% of hits that were fatal - 24%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.45
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 34%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 74%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 47%

45 ACP
# of people shot - 209
# of hits - 436
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08
% of people who were not incapacitated - 14%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51%

Based on this study one should be prepared to need more than one round to neutralize a serious threat.

[digilo]

Use FMJ only if that's all your gun will feed. Otherwise use of HP is prudent. Gabrielle Gifford was shot in the head with a 9mm FMJ, and shes recovering.

Can't get much better shot placement than that.

Had the bullet been HP instead of FMJ, no way she'd have recovered.

Also, anyone care to speculate on her chances had she been shot in the head with .45 ACP FMJ, instead of 9mm FMJ??

[M 7]

Originally Posted by RichardB

I don't know that the big hole, small hole theory has much to do with reality.

Marshal & Sanow developed data which depicts 9mm FMJ and 45ACP FMJ as roughly comparable in stopping power (I don't sweat the small % of difference). Their numbers shattered the balloons of others and the war was on.

I am not sure that any valid conclusion(s) can be drawn from the Marshall and Sanow data due to the fact that the data appears to have been intentionally manipulated.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/mars...l-analysis.htm

The statistical analysis (in the link above) is pretty damning unless one is willing to believe that a one in three trillion chance is a good bet.

Originally Posted by RichardB

Decades later another cop, Greg Ellifritz, has published his own numbers, using different criteria and he also finds the 45 and 9mm Parabellum are not that far apart. Ellifritz's bottom line is: For serious fighting use a rifle or shotgun.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/printable/node/7866

Excerpts of Ellifritz's paper.

9mm Luger
# of people shot - 456
# of hits - 1121
% of hits that were fatal - 24%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.45
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 34%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 74%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 47%

45 ACP
# of people shot - 209
# of hits - 436
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08
% of people who were not incapacitated - 14%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51%

Based on this study one should be prepared to need more than one round to neutralize a serious threat.

While the study done by Ellifritz seems to be seriously flawed, it appears for the time being, that his data was not manipulated. It would've been nice to see a more detailed break-down of his data like the brand, type (JHP or FMJ) and weight of the ammo involved, separate categories for "head" and "torso" shots, etc.

Some of his conclusions are a little goofy, but to his credit he seems to have offered an honest attempt at analyzing the data he collected.

[Tiro Fijo]

Originally Posted by M 7

I am not sure that any valid conclusion(s) can be drawn from the Marshall and Sanow data due to the fact that the data appears to have been intentionally manipulated...

That is pure hyperbole & conjecture based upon opinions of those whose theory the data didn't support, i.e., the Facklerites. Those who were in the know during that time confirmed what was revealed in the data: that the .357 Mag. & the 9mm 115 gr. +p+ JHP were deadly. Ask anyone who was on the Border Patrol in the 80's or the IL State Police as well.

[M 7]

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo

That is pure hyperbole & conjecture based upon opinions of those whose theory the data didn't support, i.e., the Facklerites. Those who were in the know during that time confirmed what was revealed in the data: that the .357 Mag. & the 9mm 115 gr. +p+ JHP were deadly. Ask anyone who was on the Border Patrol in the 80's or the IL State Police as well.

Lighten up, dude.

If you'll take the time to read the linked material you'll see that there is no hyperbole or conjecture-

http://www.firearmstactical.com/mars...l-analysis.htm

the statistical analysis is well done and the results are clearly documented for all to see, or at least, for those who will see.

Just 'cause you don't like it doesn't mean that it is not a valid analysis. The M&S stuff has HUGE issues, unless of course a 1 chance in 3 trillion plus of being legitimate is a good thing.

See, I got no skin in the game, so I don't care. "Light & fast", "slow & heavy", or somewhere "in between"- it's all good.

[federali]

FMJ .45 ACP, like 9mm FMJ, has a long track record against human adversaries. While I haven't heard much about 9mm FMJ, .45 FMJ has a very good track record, so much so that some people prefer them to JHC as the FMJs are probably the best feeding .45s extant.

[Tiro Fijo]

Originally Posted by M 7

Lighten up, dude.

If you'll take the time to read the linked material you'll see that there is no hyperbole or conjecture...

Perhaps you just "discovered" this revolutionary info you keep quoting, however this has been beat to death a million times here & on other websites. ANCIENT NEWS!!

Marshall never "doctored" his stats. It's just that his stats didn't jive with what the FBI was pushing at the time.

[Glock19Fan]

Originally Posted by digilo

Gabrielle Gifford was shot in the head with a 9mm FMJ, and shes recovering.

Also, anyone care to speculate on her chances had she been shot in the head with .45 ACP FMJ, instead of 9mm FMJ??

From what I recall, the same surgeon that operated on her also saved the life of a patient shot in the head with a 7.62x39 AK round.

[shotgunred]

All the major military's in the world use plain old fmj. I am sure that fmj's have killed more people in the world than all other ammo combined.

[M 7]

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo

Perhaps you just "discovered" this revolutionary info you keep quoting, however this has been beat to death a million times here & on other websites. ANCIENT NEWS!!

OK, so it is "old news".

It is still valid.

For Pete's sake, the analysis uses simple statistical procedures that a high school student could conduct with ease.


As for your opinion-

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo

That is pure hyperbole & conjecture based upon opinions...

-what proof have you to support your opinion?

Have you conducted an examination of the statistical analysis (linked above) for errors?

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo

Marshall never "doctored" his stats. It's just that his stats didn't jive with what the FBI was pushing at the time.

Despite your opinion, the statistical analysis demonstrates otherwise.

[LASTRESORT20]

Originally Posted by Glock19Fan

Am I the only one who thinks the 9mm clearly outperformed the .45?

Nope! Your not the only one....Never been a 45 guy....

There is a G20SF near by for heavy work....so no need for the 45.

[unit1069]

Originally Posted by shotgunred

All the major military's in the world use plain old fmj. I am sure that fmj's have killed more people in the world than all other ammo combined.

International treaties determine what ammo is legally acceptable for armed conflict between sovereign states. The issue here is what is the best self-defense ammunition. LEO agencies and all reputable experts apparently agree that reliable JHP ammo is more efficient than FMJ, not that FMJ ammo isn't effective. It's just that JHP is more efficient and effective, all things being equal.

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by Inebriated

If you don't hit a vital organ or structure, you will not stop a fight. Simple as that. I don't care if it's with a .45 ACP that expanded to 3 FEET, if you miss vitals, you aren't winning. Handguns (9mm, .40, .45) don't do a thing but poke holes, JHP or not, and a .357" hole in the Aorta is just as effective as a .45" hole. I would prefer to use something designed to penetrate, and get to what it needs to put a hole in, than use something designed to STOP MOVING inside the body. So if I didn't have to worry about every round going passing through a bad guy, and potentially wounding someone innocent, I would carry FMJ and be just as content, if not more.

.45 expanding to 3 FEET. Now that is an odd thought. But you're right though. Vital organs or nerves have to be lacerated or punctured. That is why I would aim for the central nerve/spine.

[Inebriated]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

.45 expanding to 3 FEET. Now that is an odd thought. But you're right though. Vital organs or nerves have to be lacerated or punctured. That is why I would aim for the central nerve/spine.

3 Feet might be a tad ambitious. lol

But yeah, a hit's a hit, a miss is a miss. Instead of getting wrapped up in bullet type, velocity, ME, weight... worry about hitting.

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by Inebriated

3 Feet might be a tad ambitious. lol

But yeah, a hit's a hit, a miss is a miss. Instead of getting wrapped up in bullet type, velocity, ME, weight... worry about hitting.

BUT, it is a funny thought.

[Inebriated]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

BUT, it is a funny thought.

Have you seen that Grizzly Extreme stuff? They're trying their damnedest to make it a reality.

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by Inebriated

Have you seen that Grizzly Extreme stuff? They're trying their damnedest to make it a reality.

is one BIG hollow point!

[Inebriated]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

is one BIG hollow point!

I'm still trying to figure out what that could possibly be ideal for...

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by Inebriated

I'm still trying to figure out what that could possibly be ideal for...

Or maybe Osama bin Laden?

[JW1178]

A bullet that mechanically spreads? Well if it does like it does in that pic, it would be a very wide but very shallow wound.

[M 7]

Originally Posted by Inebriated

Have you seen that Grizzly Extreme stuff? They're trying their damnedest to make it a reality.

Judging from the skive that appears to be cut down the length of the bullet almost to its base, does it expand all the way to the end of that skive?

Sure looks like it and if it does, I gotta agree with JW1178- that ain't gonna go very deep.

[Inebriated]

Of course it wouldn't go deep, it is its very own parachute. I'm surprised the pedals stay in tact.

[uz2bUSMC]

If it does go deep it will most likely be because it will plane out. Internal copper shuriken anyone?

[M 7]

Originally Posted by Inebriated

Of course it wouldn't go deep, it is its very own parachute.

That's funny.

Originally Posted by Inebriated

I'm surprised the pedals stay in tact.

Yeah, I would expect that they'd get bent backwards more than that. Weird.