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Old 08-07-2012, 23:09   #41
CanyonMan
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'Over penetration'...what are you talking about?

Pay no attention amigo, it was someone els talking about that not you.... I got you confused with them. Sorry bout that.




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Old 08-07-2012, 23:10   #42
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Old 08-07-2012, 23:28   #43
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If the choice is ball ammo only, I'd go with the larger diameter bullet every time.

.45ACP
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Old 08-08-2012, 01:40   #44
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Explain to me why we're disregarding the temporary cavity (TC) please. In trauma care we're always concerned about damage done to the area for some distance around the bullets path due to the energy transfer.

A Spleen or Liver rupture could easily occur from the energy of a bullet passing nearby, and both are commonly fatal. Because of the up and down movement of the diaphragm, any wound below nipple line on a man must be considered abdominal, and those organs don't like being disturbed. Of course, above that level are the lungs and heart which are pretty useful too.

My most extensive training is as a trauma nurse so maybe I'm too concerned about the TC.
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Old 08-08-2012, 04:38   #45
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Originally Posted by Glock19Fan View Post
Am I the only one who thinks the 9mm clearly outperformed the .45?
Yes. The .45 will deflect less and have a 21% larger bullet diameter. I want a bullet that will plow right through ribs or a breast plate, not turn 90% at the first obstacle, negating your shot placement, like a wimpy 9mm.

Last edited by WinterWizard; 08-08-2012 at 04:45..
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Old 08-08-2012, 04:45   #46
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Twice the mass ehh? How exactly is it twice? diameter? nope weight? nope. expansion? nope

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Last time I checked, 230 grains is double 115 grains. Ever heard of momentum?
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:16   #47
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Explain to me why we're disregarding the temporary cavity (TC) please. In trauma care we're always concerned about damage done to the area for some distance around the bullets path due to the energy transfer.

A Spleen or Liver rupture could easily occur from the energy of a bullet passing nearby, and both are commonly fatal. Because of the up and down movement of the diaphragm, any wound below nipple line on a man must be considered abdominal, and those organs don't like being disturbed. Of course, above that level are the lungs and heart which are pretty useful too.

My most extensive training is as a trauma nurse so maybe I'm too concerned about the TC.
According to the experts, T/C matters little until "rifle caliber" speeds and even then that threshold is kind of indistinct. Some of them say 2000 fps, others say 2200 fps. I am not sure (because I am not an expert) that anyone can say for sure. With pistols, it's penetration, then expansion, and in that order.
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Old 08-08-2012, 11:33   #48
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Originally Posted by WinterWizard View Post
Yes. The .45 will deflect less and have a 21% larger bullet diameter. I want a bullet that will plow right through ribs or a breast plate, not turn 90% at the first obstacle, negating your shot placement, like a wimpy 9mm.
The 9mm is known for penetrating hard obstacles better than the .45, especially something as shallow as the sternum or ribs.

High powered rifles are known forslightly deflecting off brush while hunting in the woods. .45ACPs are also known to deflect off windsheilds as well as other parts of the car body that the 9mm doesnt have a problem getting through.

Im not gonna argue about what it better for shooting cars. I am simply giving you examples of real world instances where ALL bullets will react when encountering an obstacle.

Also, the 9mm bullet doesnt turn 90 degrees becuase of its "pellet gun like ballistics". It turns 90, then 180 degrees becuase the shape of the bullet, in relation to the center of gravity. .50BMG bullets do the exact same thing.
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Old 08-08-2012, 11:34   #49
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Last time I checked, 230 grains is double 115 grains. Ever heard of momentum?
Ever heard of velocity.
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Old 08-08-2012, 12:22   #50
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Originally Posted by Glock19Fan View Post
The 9mm is known for penetrating hard obstacles better than the .45, especially something as shallow as the sternum or ribs.
Yes. Velocity and sectional density are factors here.
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Old 08-08-2012, 12:52   #51
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Old 08-08-2012, 14:42   #52
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Nice pic Roering...

Whenever these threads pop up, I cannot help but throw this pic in of my EDC 'in town' M1911. Someone said once, "well CM, the camera angle makes that hole look bigger.." !

Nope. "This is the way it looks" in the bad guys face !


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Old 08-08-2012, 15:03   #53
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The .45 guys sure seem to have one heck of a fixation on the size of their hole as compared to others'
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Old 08-08-2012, 15:22   #54
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I'd be happy with either, but given the choice, I'd rather have the larger, heavier bullet for critters with large bones.
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Old 08-09-2012, 04:12   #55
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Ever heard of velocity.
Momentum matters more. Ever heard of 1250 fps .45 acp rounds. 230 grains at 850 fps aren't the only flavor of .45 acp around.
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Old 08-09-2012, 04:29   #56
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Originally Posted by Glock19Fan View Post
The 9mm is known for penetrating hard obstacles better than the .45, especially something as shallow as the sternum or ribs.
Penetrating yes. But that penetration may also come with deflection.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot1.htm

In the above test, 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 acp are fired through a windshield at a target. Guess what the conclusion of the test is: The heavier the bullet, the less deflection there is. The 9mm finished last, hitting the target about 18 inches off point of aim. And these are with FMJ rounds, which is what we are talking about in this thread. And the test gun for .45 acp was a Sig P220, which has a 4.4" barrel I believe (not the standard 5" that is used in most .45 acp tests).

And as far as human bodies, the guy below, who worked in morgue, witnessing thousands of autopsies of gun shot victims, verifies with first hand experience that .45 is preferred over 9mm because it is less likely to deflect and will most likely penetrate where you are aiming, not hit bone at some weird angle, take a turn and zip out of the body, causing little damage ... or simply stop short.

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20B...a%20morgue.htm

Everyone likes to be an armchair ballistics expert, but I tend to listen to experts with real-life experience and I glean my observations from real ballistics tests, not what "I heard someone say."

But this all matters little. With top-shelf JHP rounds, all calibers are designed to penetrate about 12-15", so the whole mystique of "which caliber penetrates better is moot." The second most important factor of handgun ballistics comes into play: bullet diameter. And modern .45 acp hollow points win that battle over 9mm and .40 S&W any day of the week. Anyone who says otherwise is simply fooling themselves.

But I'll say it again, the penetration debate is so stupid. With major calibers, FMJ ammo will easily penetrate a human body through and through. With JHP ammo, the penetration average is 12-15" across calibers. What matters is momentum and bullet diameter. The difference between 9mm and .40 is small. And the difference between .40 and .45 acp is also small. But there IS a difference as much as the 9mm fanboys would like to fantasize there isn't. And I am not talking about capacity or shootability; I am talking about terminal ballistics.

Last edited by WinterWizard; 08-09-2012 at 04:47..
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Old 08-09-2012, 06:10   #57
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Read Maas's article in the latest American Handgunner (or possibly GUNS) on a shooting where a guy had to shoot his son-in-law and used 45 ACP with FMJ. I think he hit with five shots and all five passed completely through and he was just lucky no one was on the other side. Maas says never to use FMJ's for SD. In fact the arguement for using JHP is not that they are more effective, but rather they pose much less of a hazard to innocent by standers. If you go to court never say I used the hollow point because I knew it would cause more damage.
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Old 08-09-2012, 09:17   #58
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Read Maas's article in the latest American Handgunner (or possibly GUNS) on a shooting where a guy had to shoot his son-in-law and used 45 ACP with FMJ. I think he hit with five shots and all five passed completely through and he was just lucky no one was on the other side. Maas says never to use FMJ's for SD. In fact the arguement for using JHP is not that they are more effective, but rather they pose much less of a hazard to innocent by standers. If you go to court never say I used the hollow point because I knew it would cause more damage.
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Old 08-09-2012, 17:46   #59
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Originally Posted by WinterWizard View Post
...And as far as human bodies, the guy below, who worked in morgue, witnessing thousands of autopsies of gun shot victims, verifies with first hand experience that .45 is preferred over 9mm because it is less likely to deflect and will most likely penetrate where you are aiming, not hit bone at some weird angle, take a turn and zip out of the body, causing little damage ... or simply stop short.

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20B...a%20morgue.htm

...

That clown was outed as a 'whacker' years ago on the Internet. It's total bogus BS.
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Old 08-09-2012, 20:31   #60
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Yes the Wizard of OZ has great resources.
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