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Old 08-08-2012, 12:52   #51
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Old 08-08-2012, 14:42   #52
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Nice pic Roering...

Whenever these threads pop up, I cannot help but throw this pic in of my EDC 'in town' M1911. Someone said once, "well CM, the camera angle makes that hole look bigger.." !

Nope. "This is the way it looks" in the bad guys face !


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Old 08-08-2012, 15:03   #53
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The .45 guys sure seem to have one heck of a fixation on the size of their hole as compared to others'
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Old 08-08-2012, 15:22   #54
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I'd be happy with either, but given the choice, I'd rather have the larger, heavier bullet for critters with large bones.
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Old 08-09-2012, 04:12   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock19Fan View Post
Ever heard of velocity.
Momentum matters more. Ever heard of 1250 fps .45 acp rounds. 230 grains at 850 fps aren't the only flavor of .45 acp around.
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Old 08-09-2012, 04:29   #56
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Originally Posted by Glock19Fan View Post
The 9mm is known for penetrating hard obstacles better than the .45, especially something as shallow as the sternum or ribs.
Penetrating yes. But that penetration may also come with deflection.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot1.htm

In the above test, 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 acp are fired through a windshield at a target. Guess what the conclusion of the test is: The heavier the bullet, the less deflection there is. The 9mm finished last, hitting the target about 18 inches off point of aim. And these are with FMJ rounds, which is what we are talking about in this thread. And the test gun for .45 acp was a Sig P220, which has a 4.4" barrel I believe (not the standard 5" that is used in most .45 acp tests).

And as far as human bodies, the guy below, who worked in morgue, witnessing thousands of autopsies of gun shot victims, verifies with first hand experience that .45 is preferred over 9mm because it is less likely to deflect and will most likely penetrate where you are aiming, not hit bone at some weird angle, take a turn and zip out of the body, causing little damage ... or simply stop short.

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20B...a%20morgue.htm

Everyone likes to be an armchair ballistics expert, but I tend to listen to experts with real-life experience and I glean my observations from real ballistics tests, not what "I heard someone say."

But this all matters little. With top-shelf JHP rounds, all calibers are designed to penetrate about 12-15", so the whole mystique of "which caliber penetrates better is moot." The second most important factor of handgun ballistics comes into play: bullet diameter. And modern .45 acp hollow points win that battle over 9mm and .40 S&W any day of the week. Anyone who says otherwise is simply fooling themselves.

But I'll say it again, the penetration debate is so stupid. With major calibers, FMJ ammo will easily penetrate a human body through and through. With JHP ammo, the penetration average is 12-15" across calibers. What matters is momentum and bullet diameter. The difference between 9mm and .40 is small. And the difference between .40 and .45 acp is also small. But there IS a difference as much as the 9mm fanboys would like to fantasize there isn't. And I am not talking about capacity or shootability; I am talking about terminal ballistics.

Last edited by WinterWizard; 08-09-2012 at 04:47..
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Old 08-09-2012, 06:10   #57
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Read Maas's article in the latest American Handgunner (or possibly GUNS) on a shooting where a guy had to shoot his son-in-law and used 45 ACP with FMJ. I think he hit with five shots and all five passed completely through and he was just lucky no one was on the other side. Maas says never to use FMJ's for SD. In fact the arguement for using JHP is not that they are more effective, but rather they pose much less of a hazard to innocent by standers. If you go to court never say I used the hollow point because I knew it would cause more damage.
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Old 08-09-2012, 09:17   #58
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Originally Posted by PghJim View Post
Read Maas's article in the latest American Handgunner (or possibly GUNS) on a shooting where a guy had to shoot his son-in-law and used 45 ACP with FMJ. I think he hit with five shots and all five passed completely through and he was just lucky no one was on the other side. Maas says never to use FMJ's for SD. In fact the arguement for using JHP is not that they are more effective, but rather they pose much less of a hazard to innocent by standers. If you go to court never say I used the hollow point because I knew it would cause more damage.
Link?
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Old 08-09-2012, 17:46   #59
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Originally Posted by WinterWizard View Post
...And as far as human bodies, the guy below, who worked in morgue, witnessing thousands of autopsies of gun shot victims, verifies with first hand experience that .45 is preferred over 9mm because it is less likely to deflect and will most likely penetrate where you are aiming, not hit bone at some weird angle, take a turn and zip out of the body, causing little damage ... or simply stop short.

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20B...a%20morgue.htm

...

That clown was outed as a 'whacker' years ago on the Internet. It's total bogus BS.
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Old 08-09-2012, 20:31   #60
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Yes the Wizard of OZ has great resources.
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Old 08-10-2012, 02:24   #61
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That clown was outed as a 'whacker' years ago on the Internet. It's total bogus BS.
You have a source for that, or is it just something you heard?
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Old 08-10-2012, 02:42   #62
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9mm fans love gel testing because that's where the 9mm looks good, but not so much in the real world. About deflection, the 9mm is a lighter bullet, and the lighter objects are going to absorb impact more while the heavier object is likely to stay in motion. Kind of like a car vs. a SUV, even if the car is going faster, if it hits something, it will more likely deflect than the SUV that will just about plow through it. The 9mm isn't being replaced in LE because of it can't get the job done, but it fails too much.

Like said before, FMJ is not a good choice in SD. It very will might kill them, but it might take some time. The JHP will deliver all that energy in destruction and that will stop your BG faster and weaken him when trying to attack you.
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Old 08-10-2012, 07:25   #63
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9mm fans love gel testing because that's where the 9mm looks good, but not so much in the real world.
False.
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Old 08-10-2012, 07:55   #64
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False.

+1, amazing nonsense.
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Old 08-10-2012, 14:40   #65
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Gelatin has no bias. To say that it makes the 9mm look good is rediculous.
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Old 08-10-2012, 14:52   #66
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Ball can work, it has for quite a while. Placement does count though.

Using ball depends on your circumstances.



The real round though, is this one:


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Old 08-10-2012, 18:59   #67
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You have a source for that, or is it just something you heard?

Quote:
Yeah, he's a real person all right. He's a forensic anthropologist with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. Not a Medical Examiner. Not a Medical Doctor. Not a Pathologist. Not a "Mortician".

His claimed/implied numbers of autopsies are exaggerated (based upon UCR data and annual death reports for Georgia) and gun fatalities make up only a fraction of them, although he implied greater numbers. And as he admitted in his "report", the real ME often can't tell what handgun caliber was used to create a wound, unless the bullet was physically recovered.

He originally posted over at Smith & Wesson Forums, but was never willing to answer questions, respond to debate, or answer queries on that forum (nor on several others). He got called out on some facts and "disappeared".

Deadmeat2 is:

http://www.state.ga.us/gbi/pathology/bios.html

"Dr. Frederick Snow graduated from Georgia State University in Atlanta, GA with a B.A in 1970. He served as a patrolman for the Dekalb County Police Department from 1973 to 1980. Dr. Snow enrolled as a graduate student at the University of Tennessee in Knoxville, Tennessee and received a master's degree in anthropology in 1989. He joined the Georgia Bureau of Investigation in 2002 and earned a Ph.D. in anthropology from the University of Tennessee in 2004.

Dr. Snow has extensive field experience in the identification of remains from mass grave/disaster sites. Internationally, he served as a forensic anthropologist for the UN War Crimes Tribunal for Kosovo in 1999, helping to determine manner of death and gain evidence for the indictment of war criminals. He also excavated mass graves for the International Commission on Missing Persons in Sarajevo and Herzegovina, Bosnia to recover evidence for use at the UN War Crimes Tribunal at The Hague in 2001. Finally, Dr. Snow served in an administrative role for the tsunami victims identification project in 2005 in ****et, Thailand. Domestically, he was part of the Disaster Mortuary Operational Response Team (DMORT), in Noble, Georgia in 2002, and helped recover and identify remains from 326 individuals at the Tri-State Crematory.

At the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, Dr. Snow has collected, analyzed, and archived approximately 200 sets of unidentified human skeletal remains dating to 1969. "
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-627640.html
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Old 08-10-2012, 23:07   #68
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Originally Posted by Poohgyrr View Post
Ball can work, it has for quite a while. Placement does count though.

Using ball depends on your circumstances.



The real round though, is this one:


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I don't know if this is your gun or not amigo, but it is very sweet !






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Old 08-11-2012, 02:06   #69
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Now you're getting ridiculous. Even the shot placement crowd usually talks about a high center-mass POA/POI, not a cranial vault shot.

That .22lr would have to adequately penetrate. I haven't done a lot of research into .22lr for defensive use, but it seems to me that .22lr does not adequately penetrate. Do you know of a .22lr that, out of a handgun, reliably penetrates 12"+ in gel? If so, could you please aware me?

Even then, handguns are weak and ineffective as a general rule. Even with perfect (high center mass) shot placement and 'perfect' penetration (bullet just barely falls out a hole on the other side) it still might take multiple shots and some length of time to stop the attacker.

Shot placement is king, penetration is queen.
OF course I am being ridiculous, that is the point. The shot placement crowd is NOT always talking high COM, many talk head shots. Anyone that have ever done any serious shooting knows a head shot is a gift, not something to count on. Even COM hits can't be counted on in a dymanic gunfight, so you are left with making holes. Either a lot of smaller ones or fewer bigger ones. The entire point of JHP in a 9mm is to make the hole bigger so the round is more effective. That really hasn't changed much over 100yrs. It's how we ended up w/ a 45acp as our service round & not a 9mm in 1911.
BTW, just about any 22lr solid makes 12" of penetration, we were talking solids right? No serious study of terminal balistics is going to say that a 22lr that reaches 12" is the same as a 9mm or 45acp.
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Old 08-11-2012, 03:07   #70
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22LR will do some nasty things point blank. It's been called assassin's caliber of choice. Just enough power to enter the skull point blank. Not enough power to come out.

The military used .45 ACP when we weren't having to punch through body armor. When fighting enemies in body armor came into play a switch to 9mm was made, it penetrates better.

Now that we're back to fighting enemies with no body armor again the military is crying to switch back to .45 ACP.

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Old 08-11-2012, 08:31   #71
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Re: OP. Ball is just fine for SD. The cognizant don't like it because it's not the flavor of the day JHP. So what? Ball will put holes in everything that needs a hole, if the one pulling the trigger does he/her part. And, it is hole in things like organs, plumbing, etc. in the human body that settles criminals down. Energy transfer, shock, etc. with pistol calibers is just a lot of advertising hype. If one is truly concerned that a JHP will not reliably open in a potential situation, then just load up with ball and be done with it. In fact, just load up a nice 1911 or S&W 625-2 w/ some nice 230 gr. FMJ's and you'll be set for just about anything. The only reason the U.S. went to a 9mm was due to politics, specifically politics in nato and U.S./old europe relations... and the need to accommodate the little hands of women and other little people.
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Old 08-11-2012, 08:39   #72
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Re: OP. Ball is just fine for SD. The cognizant don't like it because it's not the flavor of the day JHP. So what? Ball will put holes in everything that needs a hole, if the one pulling the trigger does he/her part. And, it is hole in things like organs, plumbing, etc. in the human body that settles criminals down. Energy transfer, shock, etc. with pistol calibers is just a lot of advertising hype. If one is truly concerned that a JHP will not reliably open in a potential situation, then just load up with ball and be done with it. In fact, just load up a nice 1911 or S&W 625-2 w/ some nice 230 gr. FMJ's and you'll be set for just about anything. The only reason the U.S. went to a 9mm was due to politics, specifically politics in nato and U.S./old europe relations... and the need to accommodate the little hands of women and other little people.
Amen.

I shoot the snot out of tc cast lead, and would prefer a flat point over a round nose, but there just isn't a 230 grain load out there I'd feel bad about if it runs the gun.

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Old 08-11-2012, 09:15   #73
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I'd go with the 9mm... Come on you guys... don't be a hater

My CCW is a G26 and in my night-stand is a G19, I like that caliber and I am very fimiliar with how it will work coming out of my pistols.

As far as FMJ is concerned, it would not be my round of choice in a self defense situation, however it will get the job done if pressed into service.

Alan
Well said.
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Old 08-11-2012, 09:49   #74
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OF course I am being ridiculous, that is the point. The shot placement crowd is NOT always talking high COM, many talk head shots. Anyone that have ever done any serious shooting knows a head shot is a gift, not something to count on. Even COM hits can't be counted on in a dymanic gunfight, so you are left with making holes. Either a lot of smaller ones or fewer bigger ones. The entire point of JHP in a 9mm is to make the hole bigger so the round is more effective. That really hasn't changed much over 100yrs. It's how we ended up w/ a 45acp as our service round & not a 9mm in 1911.
BTW, just about any 22lr solid makes 12" of penetration, we were talking solids right? No serious study of terminal balistics is going to say that a 22lr that reaches 12" is the same as a 9mm or 45acp.




Good word amigo !







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Old 08-11-2012, 10:08   #75
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Re: OP. Ball is just fine for SD. The cognizant don't like it because it's not the flavor of the day JHP. So what? Ball will put holes in everything that needs a hole, if the one pulling the trigger does he/her part. And, it is hole in things like organs, plumbing, etc. in the human body that settles criminals down. Energy transfer, shock, etc. with pistol calibers is just a lot of advertising hype. If one is truly concerned that a JHP will not reliably open in a potential situation, then just load up with ball and be done with it. In fact, just load up a nice 1911 or S&W 625-2 w/ some nice 230 gr. FMJ's and you'll be set for just about anything. The only reason the U.S. went to a 9mm was due to politics, specifically politics in nato and U.S./old europe relations... and the need to accommodate the little hands of women and other little people.

Now your talking amigo. I been on here saying this for years, but hardly a soul is havin any ! Those big 230gr chunks bust through breast plates/ribs/and all manner of what ever the heck is in the way, and splinter bone into vital organs and do far more damage than folks truly know. FMJFP's do an even better job, and I roll my own for carry 99% of the time any way. I carry JHP's every now and then, and honestly, it's when I am out of my FMJ's for being outside shooting them ! ha.


Good post pard !



I'm going to stick ole Steve on here with ya as well...

Quote:
Amen.
I shoot the snot out of tc cast lead, and would prefer a flat point over a round nose, but there just isn't a 230 grain load out there I'd feel bad about if it runs the gun.




I sat up a few minutes last night and loaded up a few of these for the ole .45...

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I like these, and their good for out here at the ranch, but for going to town EDC, I just can't get away from my old favorite 230gr FMJ's in a 45acp !


Good post amigo's...!








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