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Old 08-07-2012, 06:18   #26
JW1178
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Where is the shot placement crowd?

Anyways, especially in FMJ, the .45 all the way. The .45 bullet is almost twice the mass and will mess things up. The .45 I can almost promise you will take out bone and anything else in the way.

I really don't see 9 or 45 passing through 2 people, even in FMJ. Even if it gets through the first person, it won't have enough umph to really do much to the second.
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:34   #27
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I can't make up my mind if I'm pro or anti shot placement.


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Old 08-07-2012, 08:53   #28
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Originally Posted by JW1178 View Post
Where is the shot placement crowd?

Anyways, especially in FMJ, the .45 all the way. The .45 bullet is almost twice the mass and will mess things up. The .45 I can almost promise you will take out bone and anything else in the way.

I really don't see 9 or 45 passing through 2 people, even in FMJ. Even if it gets through the first person, it won't have enough umph to really do much to the second.
You might not see it that way, but there are quite a few dead/injured people in NYC who'd disagree with you. NYCPD used to use ball ammo (in 9mm) and it gained quite a reputation for passing through suspects, barriers after that (sometimes) and then going on to injure/kill others down range.

With a little searching on the 'net, I'll bet one could also find similar reports of the .45 fmjs doing the same thing.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:10   #29
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Where is the shot placement crowd?

.
Because if they start chiming in, we are all going to just jump on them & say might as well shoot 22lr then. All the shot placement guys think they shoot better than they really do. If it were that easy, there really would be no need for anything other than a 22lr, single shot at that. Come on, even with identical shot placement, who can really argue that a bigger hole isn't going to provide a better result?
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Old 08-07-2012, 14:08   #30
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Twice the mass ehh? How exactly is it twice? diameter? nope weight? nope. expansion? nope

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Old 08-07-2012, 14:16   #31
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Twice the mass ehh? How exactly is it twice? diameter? nope weight? nope. expansion? nope

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Old 08-07-2012, 14:16   #32
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Because if they start chiming in, we are all going to just jump on them & say might as well shoot 22lr then. All the shot placement guys think they shoot better than they really do. If it were that easy, there really would be no need for anything other than a 22lr, single shot at that. Come on, even with identical shot placement, who can really argue that a bigger hole isn't going to provide a better result?
Now you're getting ridiculous. Even the shot placement crowd usually talks about a high center-mass POA/POI, not a cranial vault shot.

That .22lr would have to adequately penetrate. I haven't done a lot of research into .22lr for defensive use, but it seems to me that .22lr does not adequately penetrate. Do you know of a .22lr that, out of a handgun, reliably penetrates 12"+ in gel? If so, could you please aware me?

Even then, handguns are weak and ineffective as a general rule. Even with perfect (high center mass) shot placement and 'perfect' penetration (bullet just barely falls out a hole on the other side) it still might take multiple shots and some length of time to stop the attacker.

Shot placement is king, penetration is queen.
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Old 08-07-2012, 14:19   #33
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Now you're getting ridiculous. Even the shot placement crowd usually talks about a high center-mass POA/POI, not a cranial vault shot.

That .22lr would have to adequately penetrate. I haven't done a lot of research into .22lr for defensive use, but it seems to me that .22lr does not adequately penetrate. Do you know of a .22lr that, out of a handgun, reliably penetrates 12"+ in gel? If so, could you please aware me?

Shot placement is king, penetration is queen.

Guess that makes expansion mean Jack.
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Old 08-07-2012, 14:20   #34
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Guess that makes expansion mean Jack.
The way it's usually written expansion would be gravy, but maybe you could go with a chess board and call expansion a Rook? lol, I don't know, gotta be something to work with there
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Old 08-07-2012, 14:29   #35
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If I'm merely punching a hole with zero expansion, size matters 45 all the way.
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Old 08-07-2012, 15:13   #36
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The .45ACP also has nearly twice the mass of some .30-06 rounds.

With that said, im not comparing the .30-06 to the 9mm. I am just saying that despite the mass differences between 9mm and .45, there is a significant velocity difference. I am believer that significant damages related to velocity start appearing above the 2000FPS mark. However, that doesnt mean velocity still doesnt play a role. I dont imagine a test comparing .45ACP vs a .38 Special (130 grain @ 750 FPS) would look the same.
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Old 08-07-2012, 17:42   #37
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Yet the Germans killed millions with the 'lowly' 9mm ball ammo and the Russians millions with an even smaller 7.62 x 25mm Tokarev.
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Old 08-07-2012, 18:09   #38
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Yet the Germans killed millions with the 'lowly' 9mm ball ammo and the Russians millions with an even smaller 7.62 x 25mm Tokarev.
And even more were killed with swords and spears, and many have been killed with .22lr.

It isn't about killing, anyway.
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Old 08-07-2012, 21:37   #39
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Now you're getting ridiculous. Even the shot placement crowd usually talks about a high center-mass POA/POI, not a cranial vault shot.

That .22lr would have to adequately penetrate. I haven't done a lot of research into .22lr for defensive use, but it seems to me that .22lr does not adequately penetrate. Do you know of a .22lr that, out of a handgun, reliably penetrates 12"+ in gel? If so, could you please aware me?Even then, handguns are weak and ineffective as a general rule. Even with perfect (high center mass) shot placement and 'perfect' penetration (bullet just barely falls out a hole on the other side) it still might take multiple shots and some length of time to stop the attacker.

Shot placement is king, penetration is queen.



I don't know or care about gel. But i got a really close friend out here, that is in a wheel chair for the rest of his life, 100% a cripple from the chest down, from a former girl friends 22lr bullet she shot him with. Got tremendous penetration... Just ask him !

Your going to come up real short on your 'over penetration' list amigo with the fmj 45acp......








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Old 08-07-2012, 22:57   #40
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I don't know or care about gel. But i got a really close friend out here, that is in a wheel chair for the rest of his life, 100% a cripple from the chest down, from a former girl friends 22lr bullet she shot him with. Got tremendous penetration... Just ask him !

Your going to come up real short on your 'over penetration' list amigo with the fmj 45acp......



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'Over penetration'...what are you talking about?
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Old 08-07-2012, 23:09   #41
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'Over penetration'...what are you talking about?

Pay no attention amigo, it was someone els talking about that not you.... I got you confused with them. Sorry bout that.




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Old 08-07-2012, 23:10   #42
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Old 08-07-2012, 23:28   #43
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If the choice is ball ammo only, I'd go with the larger diameter bullet every time.

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Old 08-08-2012, 01:40   #44
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Explain to me why we're disregarding the temporary cavity (TC) please. In trauma care we're always concerned about damage done to the area for some distance around the bullets path due to the energy transfer.

A Spleen or Liver rupture could easily occur from the energy of a bullet passing nearby, and both are commonly fatal. Because of the up and down movement of the diaphragm, any wound below nipple line on a man must be considered abdominal, and those organs don't like being disturbed. Of course, above that level are the lungs and heart which are pretty useful too.

My most extensive training is as a trauma nurse so maybe I'm too concerned about the TC.
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Old 08-08-2012, 04:38   #45
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Am I the only one who thinks the 9mm clearly outperformed the .45?
Yes. The .45 will deflect less and have a 21% larger bullet diameter. I want a bullet that will plow right through ribs or a breast plate, not turn 90% at the first obstacle, negating your shot placement, like a wimpy 9mm.

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Old 08-08-2012, 04:45   #46
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Twice the mass ehh? How exactly is it twice? diameter? nope weight? nope. expansion? nope

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Last time I checked, 230 grains is double 115 grains. Ever heard of momentum?
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:16   #47
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Explain to me why we're disregarding the temporary cavity (TC) please. In trauma care we're always concerned about damage done to the area for some distance around the bullets path due to the energy transfer.

A Spleen or Liver rupture could easily occur from the energy of a bullet passing nearby, and both are commonly fatal. Because of the up and down movement of the diaphragm, any wound below nipple line on a man must be considered abdominal, and those organs don't like being disturbed. Of course, above that level are the lungs and heart which are pretty useful too.

My most extensive training is as a trauma nurse so maybe I'm too concerned about the TC.
According to the experts, T/C matters little until "rifle caliber" speeds and even then that threshold is kind of indistinct. Some of them say 2000 fps, others say 2200 fps. I am not sure (because I am not an expert) that anyone can say for sure. With pistols, it's penetration, then expansion, and in that order.
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Old 08-08-2012, 11:33   #48
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Yes. The .45 will deflect less and have a 21% larger bullet diameter. I want a bullet that will plow right through ribs or a breast plate, not turn 90% at the first obstacle, negating your shot placement, like a wimpy 9mm.
The 9mm is known for penetrating hard obstacles better than the .45, especially something as shallow as the sternum or ribs.

High powered rifles are known forslightly deflecting off brush while hunting in the woods. .45ACPs are also known to deflect off windsheilds as well as other parts of the car body that the 9mm doesnt have a problem getting through.

Im not gonna argue about what it better for shooting cars. I am simply giving you examples of real world instances where ALL bullets will react when encountering an obstacle.

Also, the 9mm bullet doesnt turn 90 degrees becuase of its "pellet gun like ballistics". It turns 90, then 180 degrees becuase the shape of the bullet, in relation to the center of gravity. .50BMG bullets do the exact same thing.
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Old 08-08-2012, 11:34   #49
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Last time I checked, 230 grains is double 115 grains. Ever heard of momentum?
Ever heard of velocity.
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Old 08-08-2012, 12:22   #50
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The 9mm is known for penetrating hard obstacles better than the .45, especially something as shallow as the sternum or ribs.
Yes. Velocity and sectional density are factors here.
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