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Old 08-06-2012, 21:41   #21
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Originally Posted by dakrat View Post
why stop there?
Because that's generally where your local gun shop stops, and where legal ownership by a private citizen stops.

Duh.
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Old 08-06-2012, 21:47   #22
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I been using FMJ 230gr in M1911 For a very loooong time. Got no problem with it and never have, and NO it does NOT pass through two and three people !!

It is my EDC "in town gun". I also like and use at times WW PDX1 230gr, and 230gr XTP's.

This is the 'only caliber' I would use FMJ in, under 'normal every day situations...'






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Old 08-06-2012, 22:11   #23
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This was my own test. Both bullets fully penetrated the 17 inches of gelatin, with the .45ACP penetrating 2 water jugs compared to the 9mm being stopped in the first.

The 9mm bullet yawed roughly 6 inches into the path and exited base first.
The yaw may have more to do with twist rate than anything... barely stabilized in flight? Can't say.

Folks nowadays make fun of us old caliber tards, but they forget that for a long time, there wasn't fancy hollow points or +P loads for the 9mm. IMHO, it's only been a viable choice for the last 15 years or so... before that, nobody seriously considered 9mm ball in a defensive gun. It was really .45 auto or .357 mag. If you were shooting in the late 80's or before, you know what I'm talking about.

Lot of guys like to site Mas Ayoob here... well, read his book In the Gravest Extreme. It comes from that era. He voted .45 ball over other fmj cartridges, and in my opinion, for good reason. The hardware in the book is out of date, but the software is spot on... I don't always agree with Mr. Ayoob on these pages, but I think that was a great book and still worth reading.

.45 ball ammo has over 100 uncontroversial years behind it. 9mm has been around longer, but has a dubious reputation in fmj with any bullet weight.

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Old 08-06-2012, 22:35   #24
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Quote:
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lets see, a small bullet or a big bullet... Hmmm.... this is a tough one. we need volunteers!
Lets see 16rds of ammo or 9rds. ill take 16.


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Old 08-06-2012, 23:15   #25
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If forced to make small holes, then I want the biggest small holes I can get. 45acp all day everyday for FMJ. Thre is a reason for double stack 9mm in the military, you will likely need more rounds.
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Old 08-07-2012, 06:18   #26
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Where is the shot placement crowd?

Anyways, especially in FMJ, the .45 all the way. The .45 bullet is almost twice the mass and will mess things up. The .45 I can almost promise you will take out bone and anything else in the way.

I really don't see 9 or 45 passing through 2 people, even in FMJ. Even if it gets through the first person, it won't have enough umph to really do much to the second.
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:34   #27
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I can't make up my mind if I'm pro or anti shot placement.


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Old 08-07-2012, 08:53   #28
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Where is the shot placement crowd?

Anyways, especially in FMJ, the .45 all the way. The .45 bullet is almost twice the mass and will mess things up. The .45 I can almost promise you will take out bone and anything else in the way.

I really don't see 9 or 45 passing through 2 people, even in FMJ. Even if it gets through the first person, it won't have enough umph to really do much to the second.
You might not see it that way, but there are quite a few dead/injured people in NYC who'd disagree with you. NYCPD used to use ball ammo (in 9mm) and it gained quite a reputation for passing through suspects, barriers after that (sometimes) and then going on to injure/kill others down range.

With a little searching on the 'net, I'll bet one could also find similar reports of the .45 fmjs doing the same thing.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:10   #29
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Where is the shot placement crowd?

.
Because if they start chiming in, we are all going to just jump on them & say might as well shoot 22lr then. All the shot placement guys think they shoot better than they really do. If it were that easy, there really would be no need for anything other than a 22lr, single shot at that. Come on, even with identical shot placement, who can really argue that a bigger hole isn't going to provide a better result?
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Old 08-07-2012, 14:08   #30
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Twice the mass ehh? How exactly is it twice? diameter? nope weight? nope. expansion? nope

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Old 08-07-2012, 14:16   #31
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Twice the mass ehh? How exactly is it twice? diameter? nope weight? nope. expansion? nope

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Old 08-07-2012, 14:16   #32
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Because if they start chiming in, we are all going to just jump on them & say might as well shoot 22lr then. All the shot placement guys think they shoot better than they really do. If it were that easy, there really would be no need for anything other than a 22lr, single shot at that. Come on, even with identical shot placement, who can really argue that a bigger hole isn't going to provide a better result?
Now you're getting ridiculous. Even the shot placement crowd usually talks about a high center-mass POA/POI, not a cranial vault shot.

That .22lr would have to adequately penetrate. I haven't done a lot of research into .22lr for defensive use, but it seems to me that .22lr does not adequately penetrate. Do you know of a .22lr that, out of a handgun, reliably penetrates 12"+ in gel? If so, could you please aware me?

Even then, handguns are weak and ineffective as a general rule. Even with perfect (high center mass) shot placement and 'perfect' penetration (bullet just barely falls out a hole on the other side) it still might take multiple shots and some length of time to stop the attacker.

Shot placement is king, penetration is queen.
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Old 08-07-2012, 14:19   #33
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Now you're getting ridiculous. Even the shot placement crowd usually talks about a high center-mass POA/POI, not a cranial vault shot.

That .22lr would have to adequately penetrate. I haven't done a lot of research into .22lr for defensive use, but it seems to me that .22lr does not adequately penetrate. Do you know of a .22lr that, out of a handgun, reliably penetrates 12"+ in gel? If so, could you please aware me?

Shot placement is king, penetration is queen.

Guess that makes expansion mean Jack.
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Old 08-07-2012, 14:20   #34
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Guess that makes expansion mean Jack.
The way it's usually written expansion would be gravy, but maybe you could go with a chess board and call expansion a Rook? lol, I don't know, gotta be something to work with there
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Old 08-07-2012, 14:29   #35
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If I'm merely punching a hole with zero expansion, size matters 45 all the way.
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Old 08-07-2012, 15:13   #36
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The .45ACP also has nearly twice the mass of some .30-06 rounds.

With that said, im not comparing the .30-06 to the 9mm. I am just saying that despite the mass differences between 9mm and .45, there is a significant velocity difference. I am believer that significant damages related to velocity start appearing above the 2000FPS mark. However, that doesnt mean velocity still doesnt play a role. I dont imagine a test comparing .45ACP vs a .38 Special (130 grain @ 750 FPS) would look the same.
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Old 08-07-2012, 17:42   #37
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Yet the Germans killed millions with the 'lowly' 9mm ball ammo and the Russians millions with an even smaller 7.62 x 25mm Tokarev.
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Old 08-07-2012, 18:09   #38
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Yet the Germans killed millions with the 'lowly' 9mm ball ammo and the Russians millions with an even smaller 7.62 x 25mm Tokarev.
And even more were killed with swords and spears, and many have been killed with .22lr.

It isn't about killing, anyway.
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Old 08-07-2012, 21:37   #39
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Now you're getting ridiculous. Even the shot placement crowd usually talks about a high center-mass POA/POI, not a cranial vault shot.

That .22lr would have to adequately penetrate. I haven't done a lot of research into .22lr for defensive use, but it seems to me that .22lr does not adequately penetrate. Do you know of a .22lr that, out of a handgun, reliably penetrates 12"+ in gel? If so, could you please aware me?Even then, handguns are weak and ineffective as a general rule. Even with perfect (high center mass) shot placement and 'perfect' penetration (bullet just barely falls out a hole on the other side) it still might take multiple shots and some length of time to stop the attacker.

Shot placement is king, penetration is queen.



I don't know or care about gel. But i got a really close friend out here, that is in a wheel chair for the rest of his life, 100% a cripple from the chest down, from a former girl friends 22lr bullet she shot him with. Got tremendous penetration... Just ask him !

Your going to come up real short on your 'over penetration' list amigo with the fmj 45acp......








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Old 08-07-2012, 22:57   #40
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I don't know or care about gel. But i got a really close friend out here, that is in a wheel chair for the rest of his life, 100% a cripple from the chest down, from a former girl friends 22lr bullet she shot him with. Got tremendous penetration... Just ask him !

Your going to come up real short on your 'over penetration' list amigo with the fmj 45acp......



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'Over penetration'...what are you talking about?
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