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Old 08-06-2012, 14:33   #1
Glock19Fan
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FMJ for Self Defense?

If you had to use FMJ and was forced to pick between 9mm and .45, what would you choose? From a Glock 19 and 5 inch barreled 1911. .45ACP on top and 9mm on bottom. Both WWB from 5 feet, and direction of travel was from the right.

Caliber Corner

I use Gold Dots, I just thought it would be interesting to show this test.
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Old 08-06-2012, 15:47   #2
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I'd go with the 9mm... Come on you guys... don't be a hater

My CCW is a G26 and in my night-stand is a G19, I like that caliber and I am very fimiliar with how it will work coming out of my pistols.

As far as FMJ is concerned, it would not be my round of choice in a self defense situation, however it will get the job done if pressed into service.

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Old 08-06-2012, 16:00   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock19Fan View Post
If you had to use FMJ and was forced to pick between 9mm and .45, what would you choose? From a Glock 19 and 5 inch barreled 1911. .45ACP on top and 9mm on bottom. Both WWB from 5 feet, and direction of travel was from the right.

Caliber Corner

I use Gold Dots, I just thought it would be interesting to show this test.
G19Fan,

Where'd you find that test? Do you have a link for it?

As for your question, both 9mm and .45 FMJs will pass through a person or three and the pointed profile of the FMJ guarantees that either will slip through soft tissue with a minimum of damage.

According to the Schwartz bullet penetration model www.quantitativeammunitionselection.com , a 9mm 115 gr. JHP moving at 1155 fps will penetrate 26.3" of soft tissue and a .45 230 gr. FMJ moving at 835 fps will penetrate 25.1" of soft tissue.

For whatever slim margin it might have, I'll take the .45, thank you very much.
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Old 08-06-2012, 16:09   #4
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In a pinch/emergency when nothing else was available fmj is fine.

However, when I have a choice in the matter, I will always carry a good jhp over any fmj.
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Old 08-06-2012, 16:34   #5
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If FMJ is my only choice in .45 or 9mm.. would have to pick .45. Heavier bullets will break through bone and hide better on some of the 4 legged bad guys that rome freely out here in fly over country.
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Old 08-06-2012, 16:52   #6
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G19Fan,

Where'd you find that test? Do you have a link for it?


For whatever slim margin it might have, I'll take the .45, thank you very much.
This was my own test. Both bullets fully penetrated the 17 inches of gelatin, with the .45ACP penetrating 2 water jugs compared to the 9mm being stopped in the first.

The 9mm bullet yawed roughly 6 inches into the path and exited base first.
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Old 08-06-2012, 16:53   #7
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Am I the only one who thinks the 9mm clearly outperformed the .45?
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Old 08-06-2012, 17:13   #8
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Originally Posted by Glock19Fan View Post
This was my own test. Both bullets fully penetrated the 17 inches of gelatin, with the .45ACP penetrating 2 water jugs compared to the 9mm being stopped in the first.

The 9mm bullet yawed roughly 6 inches into the path and exited base first.
Thanks.

As for which fmj out-performed the other, you'll have to define the criteria by which they're being judged.

Is it strictly penetration? The amount of damage done in the first 12" of penetration? The one that penetrated the most? A combination of all three or something else entirely?
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Old 08-06-2012, 17:23   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock19Fan View Post
If you had to use FMJ and was forced to pick between 9mm and .45, what would you choose? From a Glock 19 and 5 inch barreled 1911. .45ACP on top and 9mm on bottom. Both WWB from 5 feet, and direction of travel was from the right.

Caliber Corner

I use Gold Dots, I just thought it would be interesting to show this test.
9mm all day any day. Lighter recoil makes it much more controllable and much easier to shoot accurately under duress, Much more ammo capacity which is good since. criminals commit crimes in groups more than they do alone. Id rather have 15+1 9mm when facing 3 robbers then 8+1 45acp.
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Old 08-06-2012, 17:27   #10
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Am I the only one who thinks the 9mm clearly outperformed the .45?
No, I would agree by the photo that the 9mm did perform better in the first 12 inches. I've never been a 45 guy. I don't have any use for them.
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Old 08-06-2012, 18:26   #11
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Thanks.

As for which fmj out-performed the other, you'll have to define the criteria by which they're being judged.

Is it strictly penetration? The amount of damage done in the first 12" of penetration? The one that penetrated the most? A combination of all three or something else entirely?
I am basing it off what is shown in the picture. Based off the picture alone, I would say the 9mm did more damage overall.
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Old 08-06-2012, 18:27   #12
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The markings you see in the gel outside the width of the projectile is the temporary cavity. It is caused by the higher velocity of the 9mm and is basically meaningless.

In FMJ you want the largest caliber possible since it's still going to be pretty small. Seriously? People here argue about 9mm Gold Dots "only" expanding to .6" and someone wants to know which is better, .355" or .45"?

Last edited by cowboy1964; 08-06-2012 at 18:28..
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Old 08-06-2012, 18:42   #13
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The markings you see in the gel outside the width of the projectile is the temporary cavity. It is caused by the higher velocity of the 9mm and is basically meaningless.
Good point, cowboy. Lotta folks seem to be unaware that T/C matters little 'til we reach rifle caliber speeds and even then that threshold is kind of indistinct. Some say 2000 fps, others say 2200 fps. I am not sure that anyone can say for sure.


With pistols, it's penetration, then expansion, and in that order.
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Old 08-06-2012, 19:04   #14
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My only carry caliber is 9mm, so that's what I'd use. But FMJ ammo would the very LAST bullet style I'd use.
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Old 08-06-2012, 20:34   #15
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I'd go .38spl +P LSWC
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Old 08-06-2012, 20:40   #16
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Your test seems to point out that either bullet will penetrate deep enough to hit a vital organ or bone, if the shot placement is appropriate.
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Old 08-06-2012, 21:21   #17
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The markings you see in the gel outside the width of the projectile is the temporary cavity. It is caused by the higher velocity of the 9mm and is basically meaningless.
I agree, but a 9mm projectile traveling sideways, then traveling base forward (essentially a wadcutter) will not only produce a larger TC but also a larger PC.
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Old 08-06-2012, 21:22   #18
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lets see, a small bullet or a big bullet... Hmmm.... this is a tough one. we need volunteers!
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Old 08-06-2012, 21:25   #19
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lets see, a small bullet or a big bullet... Hmmm.... this is a tough one. we need volunteers!
.45 ACP doesn't make a big hole.

Rifles and shotguns make big holes.
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Old 08-06-2012, 21:37   #20
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.45 ACP doesn't make a big hole.

Rifles and shotguns make big holes.
why stop there? this is makes a bigger hole

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Old 08-06-2012, 21:41   #21
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why stop there?
Because that's generally where your local gun shop stops, and where legal ownership by a private citizen stops.

Duh.
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Old 08-06-2012, 21:47   #22
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I been using FMJ 230gr in M1911 For a very loooong time. Got no problem with it and never have, and NO it does NOT pass through two and three people !!

It is my EDC "in town gun". I also like and use at times WW PDX1 230gr, and 230gr XTP's.

This is the 'only caliber' I would use FMJ in, under 'normal every day situations...'






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Old 08-06-2012, 22:11   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock19Fan View Post
This was my own test. Both bullets fully penetrated the 17 inches of gelatin, with the .45ACP penetrating 2 water jugs compared to the 9mm being stopped in the first.

The 9mm bullet yawed roughly 6 inches into the path and exited base first.
The yaw may have more to do with twist rate than anything... barely stabilized in flight? Can't say.

Folks nowadays make fun of us old caliber tards, but they forget that for a long time, there wasn't fancy hollow points or +P loads for the 9mm. IMHO, it's only been a viable choice for the last 15 years or so... before that, nobody seriously considered 9mm ball in a defensive gun. It was really .45 auto or .357 mag. If you were shooting in the late 80's or before, you know what I'm talking about.

Lot of guys like to site Mas Ayoob here... well, read his book In the Gravest Extreme. It comes from that era. He voted .45 ball over other fmj cartridges, and in my opinion, for good reason. The hardware in the book is out of date, but the software is spot on... I don't always agree with Mr. Ayoob on these pages, but I think that was a great book and still worth reading.

.45 ball ammo has over 100 uncontroversial years behind it. 9mm has been around longer, but has a dubious reputation in fmj with any bullet weight.

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Old 08-06-2012, 22:35   #24
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Quote:
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lets see, a small bullet or a big bullet... Hmmm.... this is a tough one. we need volunteers!
Lets see 16rds of ammo or 9rds. ill take 16.


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Old 08-06-2012, 23:15   #25
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If forced to make small holes, then I want the biggest small holes I can get. 45acp all day everyday for FMJ. Thre is a reason for double stack 9mm in the military, you will likely need more rounds.
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