[t-shooter]

Sir,

I would like your opinion and rationale for selecting between two excellent defensive handguns, the Glock 19 and the Glock 30SF.
Specifically, the effectiveness of the 9MM is generally accepted as being dependent upon using one of several high tech bullets with perhaps a few minor exceptions. I carry one of three rounds p, the Ranger 127 gr +p+, the Ranger 115 gr +p+ or Corbon's +p 115. The 30SF is new to me and I am trying to come to grips with ammo selection. I purchased the 45 after the last ammo shortage. I wanted a caliber that is less dependent on the availability of boutique ammo.

My question is presuming that all else is equal which pistol would you carry if the 19 was loaded with the 127 +p+ and the 30 was loaded with an old school inexpensive and readily available bullet like Winchester's USA White box 230 gr JHP?

Is the 45 loaded with comparitively cheap old school hollow points more effective or just more confidence inspiring than 9MM loaded with the latest greatest. Your input is greatly appreciated.

[Mas Ayoob]

I'd actually be expecting more tissue damage from a 127 grain +P+ 9mm Ranger-T than from an old school 230 grain .45 JHP. I prefer .45 in very cold weather because enough heavy clothing can plug darn near any bullet and turn it into ball. The rest of the time, given the two choices you present, I'd go with the G19 and the 127 grain 9mm load. The G30 with hi-tech 230 grain JHP (The same Winchester Ranger-T brand is fine, or HST) will be distinctly more dynamic than the older .45 ACPbullet designs which preceded them.

best,
Mas

[t-shooter]

From a layman's perspective I completely agree. Could you identify some 45 loads on both side of the equation?

Winchester USA 230 JHP. Versus. Ranger T 230 JHP
Remington UMC 230 JHP. Speer Gold Dots 230 JHP

These are some obvious examples (I think.)

Are there loads in 45 that parallel the 9MM 127 +P+ closely enough to create a draw?

This is more than an intellectual exercise for me. I need to stretch my ammunition dollars as far as possible. I would also like to quantify the often stated theory that the 45 is less ammunition dependent for personal defense than the 9.

[Mas Ayoob]

The massive expansion of the HST and Ranger-T 230 grain .45 ACP, coupled with adequate penetration, make them top choices in the same ballpark as 127 grain +P+ 9mm insofar as my own needs, but again, in winter I favor the larger bullet. Same would be true if one had to fire through sheetrock or some other intermediate barrier likely to plug a hollow cavity and prevent bullet expansion.

In the high tech .45 loads you mention, I personally like the Winchester Ranger-T over the Gold Dot simply because it's a later design with greater expansion yet still sufficient penetration. Both are good loads.

In the low price JHP 230 grain .45s, I'd go with the Winchester because when it was sold as a top line deep penetrator duty load it did well in police shootings, and I don't know of any agency that used that type of Remington sufficiently to develop a track record. The agencies I know of that used to carry the standard Winchester 230 JHP have, in later years, gone to more modern loads such as the Ranger.

Tom, you didn't mention where you live. If cold weather and attendant high likelihood of having to shoot through very heavy clothing is NOT a concern, that's a point in favor of 9mm., at least from this writer's perspective.

On the budgetary side, the real crunch is gonna come in practice and training ammo. Once your carry gun has proven itself reliable with duty loads, you can "build your reps" with training FMJ, which is a HELLUVA lot cheaper in 9mm than in .45 ACP. Skill trumps hardware, and even in a frozen wasteland I'd rather be armed with a 9mm with which I was reflexively familiar, than with a .45 I couldn't afford to train with adequately.

I know it's confusing, but it's a more complicated topic than it appears to be at first glance. Hope this has been of help.

Best,
Mas

[t-shooter]

This is a complex subject and I appreciate the clarity you bring to the subject. I am in Texas. Heavy clothing comes out of the closet about 8 weeks a year. What other 9mm loads are on the same level of effectiveness as the Ranger 127 +p+? Where do the old school 45 185 JHP fit into this discussion? Would the higher velocity of +p ammo in the older 185 make a significant difference in how they stack up against the premium 9?

[Mas Ayoob]

The Speer 124 grain +P 9mm comes awfully close to the 127 grain +P+ and is my own second choice in that caliber.

The standard pressure 185 grain .45 JHP was once the police standard, and did pretty good but had occasional stopping failures. The great majority of police have gone to the 230 grain high tech JHP as their .45 load of choice.

The +P 185 grain worked quite well, and makes sense if you're in a situation where long shots are likely, since it has a distinctly flatter trajectory than 230 grain .45.

One big advantage of 230 grain standard pressure loads in .45 ACP is that once you've determined your pistol is reliable with the expensive high-tech hollow points, standard reasonably-priced 230 grain hardball gives you the same recoil impulse and point of aim/point of impact as the carry load.

Best,
Mas

[t-shooter]

Thank you Mas for your insights. It seems to me, based on our discussion here that the 45 is as dependent on ammunition selection as the 9mm is. More to the point, all cartridges require bullets designed for the task at hand and must be launched at sufficient velocity to strike the target within it's performance envelope. No round is so overwhelmingly effective that you can get by with stuffing it with whatever ammo falls to hand for serious defensive purposes. Based on the availability of economical high performance defense ammunition I am going to look at expanding my 40 caliber collection beyond the one Glock 23 I currently own.

Many of the popular on line ammunition retailers have first quality rounds in 40 cal available $5 to $10 per box cheaper than either the 9 or 45. That includes Ranger T, Hydroshock LE and HST ammo. The perfect scenario would then be to practice with cheap FMJ 9mm in my 19, carry which ever of the top line 40 my 23 likes best, and breakout the 45 during the cold months or when I travel to colder climates. I understand that is very simplistic but it does clear up a few things for me. The 45 is not a magic caliber that will perform at the height of its capability without feeding it the best ammunition available. The 9mm has benefited greatly from technological improvements in powder and bullet construction. When loaded with top quality rounds like the Ranger 127 +p+ it is near the pinnacle of performance available to any handgun cartridge. This would suggest that with the overwhelming majority of law enforcement adopting the 40 cal a huge amount of excellent defensive rounds are widely available both in quantity and variety. With the law of supply and demand this naturally drives the price down particularly on surplus department and government contract ammo.

Thank you Mas. I have a much clearer understanding of this very complex subject. I hope to attend one of your classes next time you are in North Texas.

[Mas Ayoob]

t, just to clarify a couple of points:

I do think the larger calibers are somewhat more forgiving in terms of effective ammo selection.

Also, I'd rethink using the 9mm for practice and the .40 and .45 for carry. A key element of making your shooting time into self-training instead of just practice is duplicating as much as possible the recoil of your carry load.

Best,
Mas

[t-shooter]

Excellent point. Thank you again.