[Harper]

So someone my dad works with got a flat tire on the way home from work recently. While he was working to change it a cop pulls up behind him. The guy thinks the cop pulls up to make sure he's ok or help but the cop came up and asked for license and proof of insurance. The cop goes to his car and comes back and asks 'where's the gun?' (he has a permit). The guy says he doesn't have one on him and the cop pushes the issue and asks to search the car. Another patrol car pulls up and they search the entire car and find nothing. They leave but by that time the guy has to change the tire in the dark. This happened in TN.

This of course raised some questions:
What right does LE have to ask for anything in this situation? They have to have a reason to pull someone over but what if they're already stopped like in this case?

What about searching the car for a gun he has the right to carry? Is that an illegal search? What if they found one?

[ReyFufuRulesAll]

Something tells me there's more to this story...

[Harper]

Originally Posted by ReyFufuRulesAll

Something tells me there's more to this story...

Not to my knowledge.

The reason I posted isn't to share an interesting story or accuse anyone of anything. The real question is what is legal and what you should do in a situation like this.

[ReyFufuRulesAll]

Originally Posted by Harper

Not to my knowledge.

The reason I posted isn't to share an interesting story or accuse anyone of anything. The real question is what is legal and what you should do in a situation like this.

Depends on a state by state basis. Here in WI, you do not have to declare a concealed weapon unless the officer asks. In that case, it is worth it to remember that cops deal with BS and liars all day. I find it way easier to be polite.

On the other hand, whether you choose to allow the officer to search your car is completely your call. Regardless, politeness goes a long way torwards how your experience goes. Sometimes, cops are *******s just like everybody else, but that is seldom the case IMHO.

[larry_minn]

Some Officers are PITA. This Officer may have had a reason. We don't know. Maybe a call about a guy in a similar car?

[NEOH212]

If they want to search my car they can get a warrant. While I have nothing to hide, I have nothing to prove either.

It's just like random drug tests. It's ridiculous I have to prove I don't do drugs just because other people do drugs. I'm not a criminal, I don't part take in criminal activity, as such, there is no reason I should have to prove I'm not doing something illegal if I've done nothing illegal nor have been seen doing anything illegal.

I'm not against law enforcement in any way but I just have to get this out.

In reference to this story, assuming there is nothing more to it and it happened exactly the way it's written, it's absolutely ridiculous that someone should have to show ID and all the rest if they are on the side of the road changing a tire on their vehicle.

If there weren't any violations witnessed or any crimes committed/reported, then people should be left alone. Since when is someone a criminal and have to prove their innocence when there is no reason to assume they are guilty of anything?

[Caver 60]

I had a similar, but positive experience a few years ago. My wife, children, and I were returning from a friends wedding, when we experienced a flat rear tire. There was a wide paved highway shoulder, so I pulled off and was in the process of starting to change the tire.

Of course I was still dressed in the suit (minus jacket) that I had worn to the wedding. Highway patrol car pulled in behind me with emergency lights on. The officer got out of the car and finished changing the tire for me. He never asked for anything but to help me change the tire.

I thanked him and we proceeded on our way. That's a nice way to handle things IMO.

[SouthernBoyVA]

The fellow should not have consented to the search for one thing. Hopefully, he got their names and will report this incident to their superiors. Did he record it?

[Patchman]

You mean the cops just stopped for no reason and asked him for license and registration and then asked to search his car? All the while he's standing there with a jack and a lug wrench? They didn't even tell him "oh, we just wanted to make sure you weren't stripping this car or something?"

This is why every car should have a couple of cans of those fix-a-flats. Minimize your exposure time on the side of the road.

[Gallium]

Originally Posted by Harper

So someone my dad works with got a flat tire on the way home from work recently. While he was working to change it a cop pulls up behind him. The guy thinks the cop pulls up to make sure he's ok or help but the cop came up and asked for license and proof of insurance. The cop goes to his car and comes back and asks 'where's the gun?' (he has a permit). The guy says he doesn't have one on him and the cop pushes the issue and asks to search the car. Another patrol car pulls up and they search the entire car and find nothing. They leave but by that time the guy has to change the tire in the dark. This happened in TN.

This of course raised some questions:
What right does LE have to ask for anything in this situation? They have to have a reason to pull someone over but what if they're already stopped like in this case?

What about searching the car for a gun he has the right to carry? Is that an illegal search? What if they found one?

As someone else said, there is more to the story, and to add, you were not there. Did the person who had the encounter relate the incident to you? Or did they relate it to your dad, who in turn told you?

If dude told your dad, and dad told you, you are asking US to provide insight based on a 3rd or 4th hand story.

For starters:

1. State police, or local police?

2. Interstate, county highway or local thorough fare?

3. Did he consent to the search?

4. Was his vehicle obstructing traffic flow, or did it create a potential safety/traffic hazard?

5. Did he indeed have his driver license and proof of insurance?

6. LE (just like you and me) always have the right to ASK anything they want to ask. You need to focus therefore on what is mandated by your state for you to provide in official LE interactions. In some states, having plates on your vehicle means implicit acceptance of specific terms and conditions - one of which might be producing proof of insurance on request from LE.

The points I raised are just some of the things you did not present in your post, surely you can understand when someone says you've painted an incomplete picture.

What state do you live in? Do you have a driver license and a vehicle registered to you?

- G

[RussP]

Gallium's post covered everything, but here's my version...

Originally Posted by Harper

So someone my dad works with got a flat tire on the way home from work recently. While he was working to change it a cop pulls up behind him. The guy thinks the cop pulls up to make sure he's ok or help but the cop came up and asked for license and proof of insurance. The cop goes to his car and comes back and asks 'where's the gun?' (he has a permit). The guy says he doesn't have one on him and the cop pushes the issue and asks to search the car. Another patrol car pulls up and they search the entire car and find nothing. They leave but by that time the guy has to change the tire in the dark. This happened in TN.

It would be helpful if we knew everything said between your dad's friend and the officers. Since we don't have that, everyone here is going to fill in the gaps with what they think might have been said. Don't take it personal, please.

Originally Posted by Harper

This of course raised some questions:

1. What right does LE have to ask for anything in this situation?
   
   
2. They have to have a reason to pull someone over but what if they're already stopped like in this case?
   
   
3. What about searching the car for a gun he has the right to carry?
   
   
4. Is that an illegal search?
   
   
5. What if they found one?

1. It isn't that LE has the right to ask. They can ask anyone anything. "Are you enjoying changing that tire?" "May I see your license and proof of insurance?" It is up to state law and/or the person asked to answer or provide the requested information. You need to check Tennessee code for those requirements.
   
   
2. Stopping behind a vehicle on the side of the road should not be unexpected. They may be checking on whether the driver needs assistance, whether a tow truck is needed, any number of wellness reasons. Seeing someone in the process of changing a tire is a pretty good indicator of the problem. There is also the chance a similar vehicle is one they are interested in for other reasons.
   
   
3. Here is where we get into "unknown information" territory.What did your dad's friend say when asked if the car could be searched? "Yes," "No," "Why," what did he say? If he said "Yes," end of discussion.
   
   As for "searching the car for a gun he has the right to carry," again, we don't know what conversation they had about why he didn't have a gun if he had a license to carry.
   
   But, yes, with his consent they can search.
   
   
4. This all depends on whether he gave consent.
   
   
5. Now, if they had found a firearm, it would depend on where they found it. In the driver's compartment, he could be in serious doo-doo.

[Harper]

Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA

The fellow should not have consented to the search for one thing. Hopefully, he got their names and will report this incident to their superiors. Did he record it?

He didn't record it.

Originally Posted by Patchman

You mean the cops just stopped for no reason and asked him for license and registration and then asked to search his car? All the while he's standing there with a jack and a lug wrench? They didn't even tell him "oh, we just wanted to make sure you weren't stripping this car or something?"

To the best of my knowledge, yes exactly.

Originally Posted by RussP

Gallium's post covered everything, but here's my version...It would be helpful if we knew everything said between your dad's friend and the officers. Since we don't have that, everyone here is going to fill in the gaps with what they think might have been said. Don't take it personal, please.

1. It isn't that LE has the right to ask. They can ask anyone anything. "Are you enjoying changing that tire?" "May I see your license and proof of insurance?" It is up to state law and/or the person asked to answer or provide the requested information. You need to check Tennessee code for those requirements.
   
   
2. Stopping behind a vehicle on the side of the road should not be unexpected. They may be checking on whether the driver needs assistance, whether a tow truck is needed, any number of wellness reasons. Seeing someone in the process of changing a tire is a pretty good indicator of the problem. There is also the chance a similar vehicle is one they are interested in for other reasons.
   
   
3. Here is where we get into "unknown information" territory.What did your dad's friend say when asked if the car could be searched? "Yes," "No," "Why," what did he say? If he said "Yes," end of discussion.
   
   As for "searching the car for a gun he has the right to carry," again, we don't know what conversation they had about why he didn't have a gun if he had a license to carry.
   
   But, yes, with his consent they can search.
   
   
4. This all depends on whether he gave consent.
   
   
5. Now, if they had found a firearm, it would depend on where they found it. In the driver's compartment, he could be in serious doo-doo.

He consented to the search but I wanted to know what would happen if he refused.

Why would he be in serious doo-doo? Just because he didn't notify the cops when they asked?

[Batesmotel]

Something like this happened in Utah. Cops were on were lookout for a silver Chevy truck. They pulled the wrong truck over and asked for documents which were provided including his CCW. Everything was OK to this point.

Then they asked for the gun. He did not have a gun with him but they searched the truck anyway. After they found nothing they left all his crap scattered on the side of the road for him to clean up.

The claim was that showing a CCW was the same as giving permission for the search for a firearm.

[Patchman]

Originally Posted by Harper

He consented to the search but I wanted to know what would happen if he refused.

If he refused, nothing would have happened. Unless the LEO already had probable cause, in which case they would detain the car, request a search warrant from a judge or magistrate and upon getting the warrant, search the car.

Why would he be in serious doo-doo? Just because he didn't notify the cops when they asked?

First, I didn't post the post you're responding to, is so I'm not sure what the poster meant by his statement.

BUT, as you first posted, he already told the cops he didn't have a gun with him. If they suddenly found one inside his car... What happens next would, I guess, depend on that state's CCW law or penal law.

[Patchman]

Off topic, but this post is exactly why in our legal system, hearsay is not allowed as evidence. Second or third hand information is not allowed because the "witness" would just repeat what he/she heard ("hearsay") and when asked to clarify, just answer "that's what I heard..." or "...as far as I know."

[Gallium]

Harper,

I ask again:

What state are you in? Same state as where this occurred?

Also, do you carry a gun? Do you have a permit?

If you are so motivated, you can most likely get information of the stop from the agency that conducted the stop. My hunch is that what is in that report would be a few light years different from what was related to you. If that is the case, how do you, how do we resolve the differences in narrations of what happened?

- G

[RussP]

Originally Posted by russp

Originally Posted by harper

why would he be in serious doo-doo? Just because he didn't notify the cops when they asked?

Thanks, patchman, that is the answer.

Are you asking on behalf of your dad's friend, your dad, or yourself?

[rednoved]

Originally Posted by NEOH212

It's just like random drug tests. It's ridiculous I have to prove I don't do drugs just because other people do drugs. I'm not a criminal, I don't part take in criminal activity, as such, there is no reason I should have to prove I'm not doing something illegal if I've done nothing illegal nor have been seen doing anything illegal.

I've always found that nobody does anything illegal, until they do something illegal.

[Patchman]

Originally Posted by rednoved

I've always found that nobody does anything illegal, until they do something illegal.

No, everything is legal and OK to do until they get caught.

[Harper]

Originally Posted by Patchman

If he refused, nothing would have happened. Unless the LEO already had probable cause, in which case they would detain the car, request a search warrant from a judge or magistrate and upon getting the warrant, search the car.





First, I didn't post the post you're responding to, is so I'm not sure what the poster meant by his statement.

BUT, as you first posted, he already told the cops he didn't have a gun with him. If they suddenly found one inside his car... What happens next would, I guess, depend on that state's CCW law or penal law.

Thanks

Originally Posted by Patchman

Off topic, but this post is exactly why in our legal system, hearsay is not allowed as evidence. Second or third hand information is not allowed because the "witness" would just repeat what he/she heard ("hearsay") and when asked to clarify, just answer "that's what I heard..." or "...as far as I know."

And it's also why glocktalkers shouldn't treat every thread like they are trying a case.

Originally Posted by Gallium

Harper,

I ask again:

What state are you in? Same state as where this occurred?

Also, do you carry a gun? Do you have a permit?

Yeah, I'm in Tennessee. I have a permit but don't(can't) always carry.

[Bren]

Originally Posted by Harper

This of course raised some questions:
What right does LE have to ask for anything in this situation? They have to have a reason to pull someone over but what if they're already stopped like in this case?

Without knowing any more about the guy, what they did seems pretty stupid (but 100% legal). On the other hand, I've never known of that to happen in the real world - I've heard of cops injured and killed trying to help people fix a car on the side of the road, but never one pulling up and randomly asking to search.

However, assuming that's the whole story - they can ask for consent to do anything they want...just like a homeless guy sitting on the guardrail can ask for consent to search his car or a school bus driver can stop by and ask for consent to search his car - asking for consent, without detaining him, requires no law enforcement authority and no legal justification.

What about searching the car for a gun he has the right to carry? Is that an illegal search? What if they found one?

If he consents to the search, they can search for bubble gum and grocery coupons.

[Bren]

Originally Posted by Harper

Not to my knowledge.

The reason I posted isn't to share an interesting story or accuse anyone of anything. The real question is what is legal and what you should do in a situation like this.

Yes, it's legal. What you should do is say, "no" if you don't want them to search. How hard is that?

[Bren]

Originally Posted by Patchman

If he refused, nothing would have happened. Unless the LEO already had probable cause, in which case they would detain the car, request a search warrant from a judge or magistrate and upon getting the warrant, search the car.

Not unless that's your state law - Under federal law and all state law I've heard of, if they have probable cause to search the car, they would not get or need a warrant. Carroll v. United States, 267 U.S. 132 (1925).

here's a whole article on the subject.

[Gallium]

Originally Posted by Harper

Thanks



And it's also why glocktalkers shouldn't treat every thread like they are trying a case.



Yeah, I'm in Tennessee. I have a permit but don't(can't) always carry.

Many of the folks here who respond have seen literally, hundreds of posts that assert one thing, and then upon further examination, a set of facts that do not mirror what was initially posted.

If you are likewise in TN, and you have a permit, it would greatly behoove you to be somewhat familiar with what actions the police can, and do take against you, what actions you can lawfully take in return, and what remedies are available to you (and the police) if things don't unravel the way one or both sides is happy with.

*there is not a trace of malice in my post...it is advice from the heart).

[Patchman]

Originally Posted by Bren

Not unless that's your state law - Under federal law and all state law I've heard of, if they have probable cause to search the car, they would not get or need a warrant. Carroll v. United States, 267 U.S. 132 (1925).

Ooops.

You're right, of course.