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Old 07-26-2012, 13:59   #51
alank2
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Hi,

Well...I'm starting to get frustrated and beginning to question the brass...

I loaded up 20 more rounds:
10 of Blue Dot 10gr for 180gr GDHP, CCI 300, 1.250 oal, new starline nickel
10 of Accurate #7 9.6gr for 200gr XTP, CCI 300, 1.250 oal, new starline nickel

Only fired 2 rounds before STOPPING:

The 10 Ring

First round 1116 fps, stopped, picked up case, looked pretty good other than the ballooning which didn't even seem to bad.

Second case 1136 fps, stopped picked up case, noticed the large vertical split in it and decided not to shoot the remaining 18 rounds...

Not a hot load, it chrono'd at 1136 fps, but split nasty. I am really starting to wonder about Starline Nickel brass. I had this happen once a few years ago with Starline Nickel and 38 special - sent the brass to Starline and they said the brass was bad.

What do you guys think??? I gotta go and see if I can polish out the burn mark in my G20 chamber.... :(

Thanks,

Alan
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Last edited by alank2; 07-26-2012 at 14:52..
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Old 07-26-2012, 14:34   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alank2 View Post
Hi,

Well...I'm starting to get frustrated and beginning to question the brass...

I loaded up 20 more rounds:
10 of Blue Dot 10gr for 180gr GDHP, CCI 300, 1.250 oal, new starline nickel
10 of Accurate #5 9.6gr for 200gr XTP, CCI 300, 1.250 oal, new starline nickel

Only fired 2 rounds before STOPPING:



First round 1116 fps, stopped, picked up case, looked pretty good other than the ballooning which didn't even seem to bad.

Second case 1136 fps, stopped picked up case, noticed the large vertical split in it and decided not to shoot the remaining 18 rounds...

Not a hot load, it chrono'd at 1136 fps, but split nasty. I am really starting to wonder about Starline Nickel brass. I had this happen once a few years ago with Starline Nickel and 38 special - sent the brass to Starline and they said the brass was bad.

What do you guys think??? I gotta go and see if I can polish out the burn mark in my G20 chamber.... :(

Thanks,

Alan
Considering what you've seen so far, the serious case crease during sizing, what appears to be excessive case bulge, and the actual case failure, I would STRONGLY recommend having a VERY close look at your barrel/chamber. Measure it, and check it for cracks, visually, then magnaflux if necessary. Inside and out.

Also, consider the possibility the pressure signs aren't occurring while in the chamber. Try to fit one of the fired cases (before sizing, and not a ruptured case) back into the chamber. It should fit, even if it takes a little force to push it in. Match the orientation it was fired. If it doesn't fit, you have an issue with timing, or the chamber is cracked (expanding during firing).

Bad brass is certainly a possibility (happened to me this year). However, what you are seeing isn't all that can/does happen with a weak alloy and the charges you are using. If the primers are staying in, the pressure isn't great enough to cause the head to fail, and this should also apply to the case wall.
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Old 07-26-2012, 14:45   #53
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Bad piece of brass is always a possibility especially when split long ways like that pictured...

Your Blue Dot load should be Good to go but the Acurate #5 is a little too fast for the heavy 200XTP in my opinion! The same load of Blue Dot would be a better loading for the 200 grain bullet! It is what I use and have gone to 10.5 grains of BD @ 1180-1200 fps from the S&W1006
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Old 07-26-2012, 14:58   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dm1906 View Post
Considering what you've seen so far, the serious case crease during sizing, what appears to be excessive case bulge, and the actual case failure, I would STRONGLY recommend having a VERY close look at your barrel/chamber. Measure it, and check it for cracks, visually, then magnaflux if necessary. Inside and out.
Do you mean for a hairline crack or something? The chamber looks solid (at least to my eye) inside and out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dm1906 View Post
Try to fit one of the fired cases (before sizing, and not a ruptured case) back into the chamber. It should fit, even if it takes a little force to push it in. Match the orientation it was fired.
It fits and freely rotates. I used the fired case in the picture above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _The_Shadow View Post
Your Blue Dot load should be Good to go but the Acurate #5 is a little too fast for the heavy 200XTP in my opinion!
You are absolutely right, that was a typo, I am using #7. The BD load is the one that split the case!

When I pinged Starline about my earlier issues with the resize crease they mentioned:

Quote:
From past experience I would say that the radius on the die is not properly blended into the land of the die. Where the radius and the land meet you should not be able to see a sharp corner. This coupled with the fact that you are sizing it down to about .003 below the SAAMI minimum of .420, and that it is being fired from a Glock are what is causing your problems. We make the brass to a diameter of .421 which works perfectly, so I would try to find a sizing die that is closer to that.
Shouldn't it tolerate going to 0.4165" to 0.417"? 0.420 wouldn't seem to offer much neck tension...

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-26-2012, 15:34   #55
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Hi,

By the way, the fired case that didn't rupture measures 0.424" at the case mouth, 0.428" in the middle, and 0.433" at the most ballooned part. It doesn't seem to be bulged on any one particular side or another, it is concentric.

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-26-2012, 15:39   #56
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Originally Posted by alank2 View Post
Do you mean for a hairline crack or something? The chamber looks solid (at least to my eye) inside and out.
Yes. That is why I suggest magnaflux. If it were obvious enough to see easily, it would likely be too late (KB!).

Quote:
It fits and freely rotates. I used the fired case in the picture above.
It should fit, and sounds normal. Timing is probably OK, too. If it were overpressure or weak brass, the chamber ramp area should bulge greater, preventing rotation.

Quote:
You are absolutely right, that was a typo, I am using #7. The BD load is the one that split the case!
Whew! I saw that and started digging through load data (then saw you edited it). Your AA7 load is OK, and shouldn't be an issue.

Quote:
When I pinged Starline about my earlier issues with the resize crease they mentioned:

Shouldn't it tolerate going to 0.4165" to 0.417"? 0.420 wouldn't seem to offer much neck tension...

Thanks,

Alan
Starline is correct. Just seating the bullet (.400") will expand the case mouth to .422-.423", minimum. More than enough neck tension.

Even if your die is undersized, you are still blowing up NEW brass, and the brass isn't showing other telltale signs of overpressure. Something is very wrong here, and I think it may be your barrel. Either cracked, or oversize chamber.
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Old 07-26-2012, 16:00   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alank2 View Post
Hi,

I moved your reply from the other thread to this one...

Here is what they look like after resizing.

The 10 Ring

Thanks,

Alan


alank2


I have a set of Lee dies that are undersized, and they are the EXACT twin to the brass in your picture with the big wide band around the bottom. Also when seating a bullet, I get a really pronouned buldge at the base of the bullet in the brass as well...

Put those dies on the shelf and said "heck with this.." That is a mess looking to happen.

I then talked with RCBS (which is about all I use any way) and they sent me a die .1K under sized and that problem went away, meaning the Lee die was a tad to undersized, and also the RCBS allowed for a better 'base" at the bottom of the die to go a bit further down.

All this will probably be sticks to swallow with folks, but all this taking the huge buldge out, and shooting, and taking it out, and shooting, one day, WILL have a pay day. Like putting ammo in and out of a mag all the time and weakening the spring. One day the place the "buldge was ironed out several times" is going to land at the six 'oclock area in the OEM barrel, and blow !

I promise you !


You can't place that type strain even on brass with out making it weaker in that spot each time.

The pics you have shown above here, withe the reall under sized squeezed down brass with the wide belt at bottom, begins to weaken the brass around the top part of that wide band at the bottom web area, and it 'will crack open'.

I don't know how you got a die so undersized with out ordering it, but that is what makes that band at the bottom, and ALSO will give you a REAL tight friction fit on the bullet and a decent buldge usually at the base of the seated bullet.

I shoot my hottest loads through the Stock G20 barrel, and use the RCBS .1k undersize to iron that out, and fire it 'once more', and then they get loaded down to 'popper' play time stuff. (when in the OEM barrel).

If I want to save brass life a bit, I use the LW barrel in the G20..

Some Guys say they get dozens of loadings, and even more some of them, with their hot loaded OEM barrels. Folks can get away at times for years of doing this and that, but one day..... !


I know a nut case that never checked his oil in his truck, I looked at it one day caused the motor smelled like it was burning... The dipstick was BONE dry . I ask how long it had been since he added/changed oil, he hung his head and said about a year or so.... (older truck btw). Well then it one day freezes up or blows up. Point made.

Point is: "One day." !


So, I also saw on page 3 here I think it was, your split case...

For many years I been shooting 11.0grs BD and 10.7grs BD, and 10.5grs BD With different cast bullets and XTP's and never a problem, at all in the stock OEM Glock barrel in G20/and G29. But again, I only shoot my hottest loads in them 2X, and then their loaded down. Use the AM barrel with ya want a "tad" more case life.


I had a split case (new case) the other day exactly like yours with WW new outta the sack. But was due to 'over pressure' in a load I fired.

The loads you describe are real common around here and else where in 180/200gr loadings in 10mm and They really aren't case spliters. "In this 'case' of yours, (haha) I can't tell ya cause I was not there. maybe a boo boo at the bench a flicker in the powder scale, Got one seated waaaay to short, a bad case.... You may never know.

OR... It may be that extremely squeezed down case (looks like to me at least in the pics on page 1) "bulding pressure", along with some other factors, especially IF you are having a tremendously tight friction fit and then a fairly tight taper crimp, and or if you are also seating a tad to deep, all this plus about one dozen other factors can cause problems.

If it were me, I would at least try another die, say RCBS carbide, and see if that doesn't stop the problem/s. I tell ya man, mine in that Lee, look to the nth degree just like those pictured on page one, and they were bad news...


Good luck !








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Old 07-26-2012, 16:26   #58
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OK amigo, I went in the gun room and ran two OEM fired cases from my G20 through the Lee undersized die..

Here they are:


The 10 Ring


Look familiar ?? haha They look EXACTLY like yours if I would have held the cell phone better i the low light I had the BELT would have been identical ! (pic was not that good)

i tell you, these cased just enough over pressure from such a tight fitting bullet (crazy sounding or not) they gave problems, and man will they roll around inside a stock Glock barrel ! PLUS the belt, as I said, (the magnum belt looking area) is a great place for blow outs.

Yes you can reload your brass from the oem... But get a better die arrangement and watch them "fit" better and work better....



Good luck






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Old 07-26-2012, 16:59   #59
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by dm1906 View Post
Even if your die is undersized, you are still blowing up NEW brass, and the brass isn't showing other telltale signs of overpressure. Something is very wrong here, and I think it may be your barrel. Either cracked, or oversize chamber.
Indeed, I would be very surprised that a little bit of undersizing (0.4165 vs 0.420" on NEW brass (0.0035) could be responsible for a case rip, but I suppose it is possible. Wouldn't the brass just expand until it hits the chamber wall and stop?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanyonMan View Post
All this will probably be sticks to swallow with folks, but all this taking the huge buldge out, and shooting, and taking it out, and shooting, one day, WILL have a pay day. Like putting ammo in and out of a mag all the time and weakening the spring. One day the place the "buldge was ironed out several times" is going to land at the six 'oclock area in the OEM barrel, and blow !

I promise you !

You can't place that type strain even on brass with out making it weaker in that spot each time.
I couldn't agree more and I certainly don't want to remove the bulge or guppy from a piece of brass and keep using it again and again. Still, it sounds like people around here are getting a few reloads at least using the factory barrel with reasonable loads and that is what I am hoping to accomplish before considering an aftermarket barrel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanyonMan View Post
The loads you describe are real common around here and else where in 180/200gr loadings in 10mm and They really aren't case spliters. "In this 'case' of yours, (haha) I can't tell ya cause I was not there. maybe a boo boo at the bench a flicker in the powder scale, Got one seated waaaay to short, a bad case.... You may never know.
They were loaded this morning. I am used to powders that meter more uniformly than blue dot, I noticed that it is about +/- 0.1 grains compared to others I use which are a bit more uniform. My usual test is to operate the press in the way I normally would and measure 5 successive chargers, if I am going for 5.1 grains for example, then I want to see 5.1, 10.2, 15.3, 20.4, and finally 20.5. This method should ensure that I am within 0.02 of the charge weight I am going for and I can also see how consistent it is. With Blue dot this morning, it was like 10.0, 20.1, 30.0, 39.9, 50.0. The velocity was right on par with the first round and what I would have expected so I don't think it was an overcharge situation. I also checked each round with calipers and they were all 1.250 to 1.254.

So we have so far:

1. Sizing dies are sizing brass too small at 0.4165 to 0.417" and the vertical split is caused by it being undersized. I still wonder 0.003 is enough to cause a split like this.

2. Barrel issue of some sort. It looks good to me to look at, it really looks solid. The first case is uniformly expanded and fits and can easily rotate...

3. Brass issue. This one I am still wondering about. Especially since this happened to me one time a few years ago with some other Starline Nickel in 38 special. Could the nickel process do something to affect the brass?

Any ideas how I can test or eliminate any of these 3? I want to take baby steps now to figure this out...

One more thing I want to mention in case I didn't above - I have only used NEW cases so far.

Thanks,

Alan
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Last edited by alank2; 07-26-2012 at 17:22..
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Old 07-26-2012, 18:19   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alank2 View Post
Hi,

By the way, the fired case that didn't rupture measures 0.424" at the case mouth, 0.428" in the middle, and 0.433" at the most ballooned part. It doesn't seem to be bulged on any one particular side or another, it is concentric.

Thanks,

Alan
OK, then. I didn't have any similar rounds fired from my G20, with OEM barrel and spring (long time since I've used them), so I fired a couple I had loaded. 180 gr. LTCHC (.401"), 11 gr. BD, new DT brass, CCI 350, 1.260" COL. The components aren't the same, but pressure measurement is the goal, and this should provide that. It's my typical target round. I took a 2L pop bottle with me, filled with water and frozen (2 weeks @ -20F...very HARD). Had to shoot something, and I was feeling like a snowcone.

Anyhoo.....The measurements....
Mouth = .424"
Middle = .429/.430"
Bulge = .433"
Head = .420"
Snug going back into the barrel, but fits.

For comparison:
Same round through LWD barrel, 24# spring......
Mouth = .423"
Middle = .425"
Bulge = .427"
Head = .420"

Same round through Blackhawk....
Mouth = .423"
Middle = .425"
Bulge (area) = .426"
Head = .420"

After Lee sizer (not BB) = .417" (mouth to bulge area). There was no indication of a "step", or plowing like shown in your pics. Very smooth transition to the .420" web area.

Sound familiar?
Your chamber isn't your problem, unless both of ours are broken, near exactly the same.

Back to square one, sort of.

I hit the bottle about 1.5" from the bottom, and it went through-through (from about 30'). Bottom 1/2 of the bottle/ice entered the upper atmosphere (just followed the case). The remaining upper 1/2 turned to "snow", and remained in the bottle. That was the plan (just flip it over). Damn....Forgot the syrup!
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Old 07-26-2012, 18:26   #61
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Originally Posted by alank2 View Post
Hi,



Indeed, I would be very surprised that a little bit of undersizing (0.4165 vs 0.420" on NEW brass (0.0035) could be responsible for a case rip, but I suppose it is possible. Wouldn't the brass just expand until it hits the chamber wall and stop?



I couldn't agree more and I certainly don't want to remove the bulge or guppy from a piece of brass and keep using it again and again. Still, it sounds like people around here are getting a few reloads at least using the factory barrel with reasonable loads and that is what I am hoping to accomplish before considering an aftermarket barrel.



They were loaded this morning. I am used to powders that meter more uniformly than blue dot, I noticed that it is about +/- 0.1 grains compared to others I use which are a bit more uniform. My usual test is to operate the press in the way I normally would and measure 5 successive chargers, if I am going for 5.1 grains for example, then I want to see 5.1, 10.2, 15.3, 20.4, and finally 20.5. This method should ensure that I am within 0.02 of the charge weight I am going for and I can also see how consistent it is. With Blue dot this morning, it was like 10.0, 20.1, 30.0, 39.9, 50.0. The velocity was right on par with the first round and what I would have expected so I don't think it was an overcharge situation. I also checked each round with calipers and they were all 1.250 to 1.254.

So we have so far:

1. Sizing dies are sizing brass too small at 0.4165 to 0.417" and the vertical split is caused by it being undersized. I still wonder 0.003 is enough to cause a split like this.

2. Barrel issue of some sort. It looks good to me to look at, it really looks solid. The first case is uniformly expanded and fits and can easily rotate...

3. Brass issue. This one I am still wondering about. Especially since this happened to me one time a few years ago with some other Starline Nickel in 38 special. Could the nickel process do something to affect the brass?

Any ideas how I can test or eliminate any of these 3? I want to take baby steps now to figure this out...

One more thing I want to mention in case I didn't above - I have only used NEW cases so far.

Thanks,

Alan





Alan, you may very well have had an over charged load.

Let's look at you list of number 1-3:


1).
Quote:
Sizing dies are sizing brass too small at 0.4165 to 0.417" and the vertical split is caused by it being undersized. I still wonder 0.003 is enough to cause a split like this.
Alan, it most certainly can cause that split. More than likely an over charge though or a bad piece of brass... (I will be repeating myself later).

Unless I am waaay wrong here, you are experiencing some 'really tight' friction fit in those cases, (tight is great, but not when it takes 50 whacks to pull the bullet, "seriously" mine is that way, the Lee I dumped) looking at the major buldge you have at the bottom of the bullet in the pics way up top post of yours here, right ?. Yes, that buldge is NOT abnormal in hand loading as you know. But looking at those pics with the split case the loaded rounds look just like mine did with that lousy lee (way to much) undersized die. Tight as heck seating aren't they ?

Try to pull one with a 'Kinetic bullet puller', it will either break the puller, or take (seriously) 40/50 whacks on the floor to get that bullet out, even before you crimp it !

So, yes "pressure."



2).
Quote:
Barrel issue of some sort. It looks good to me to look at, it really looks solid. The first case is uniformly expanded and fits and can easily rotate...
Alan, the barrel fit will be really loose and sloppy with those cases we're talking about (before firing) squeezed way down the way they are, I know ! haha. Do this. Take a piece of unfired new brass, and see how it fits into your chamber, as compared to the one you "sized down" with that die of yours.

Like dm1906 told ya, "i agree with him" I doubt it is your barrel... BUT.

If your gun was made within the last three years and the chamber is really bad sloppy, call Glock and demand a new barrel... 'I did." I called and got the general manager on the phone and gave him all the saami specs for the camber in every detail and he told the telephone tech, 'that was trying to blow me off, 'that I was right' , and send me a new barrel. This was a couple years ago with a G30... Shoots like a champ and 'tighter chamber'.

BUT, for now, what your dies are doing to the brass is my first concern. Play with that first, by (sorry) getting another brand die, ( I strongly suggest an RCBS carbide) and see how that works in the chamber you now have compared to the die you are NOW using.. A tad costly at 40.00 but amigo, I can tell ya, looking at your 'magnum belt appearance' on the brass web, you need to dump that sizer die man.

If even in that, your brass wallows around like a straw in a drain pipe, then deal with the barrel !



3)..
Quote:
Brass issue. This one I am still wondering about. Especially since this happened to me one time a few years ago with some other Starline Nickel in 38 special. Could the nickel process do something to affect the brass?

Well, as I believe it was 'Shadow' who told you, "brass can some times do this, even new brass.." ( I "paraphrased" Shadow's statement) But any brand brass, like anything else, can just have a 'weak spot', manufacture defect !

But I am still standing on two things going by both your pictures of 'empty and loaded' and the split.. The way to under size die, and or you boo booed and dumed to much powder there.. (which i doubt), and or a bad piece of brass... I am still standing on the waay to undersized die problem, NO matter "what blew the brass" that die is bad news and one day those cases are going to blow at the top rim of that belt....


One way to settle it. New die. If that ain't it (and I think it is) then get with Glock for a new barrel. If it comes to that ( and i do NOT think it will) PM me and I wil get you real detailed sammi specs from a friend of mine that works for the saami industry. That is where i get my good info, is from him


Quote:
I couldn't agree more and I certainly don't want to remove the bulge or guppy from a piece of brass and keep using it again and again. Still, it sounds like people around here are getting a few reloads at least using the factory barrel with reasonable loads and that is what I am hoping to accomplish before considering an aftermarket barrel.


Right. It is not a revolver it is a GLOCK barrel semi-auto !

This especially in 10mm, with a few different things happening like we are talking about with you here, can by sizing and resizing stouter loads working that brass so much it's going to , as I said before, end up at the six o clock area again in that oem barrel and bam !

I am NOT trying to be a wize butt, but I been to TWO different schools for "Metallurgy," in the past years. One for training to find weak spots and, (long story) in oil field drill pipe/stems and other oil field related components.

The other was Oklahoma City Horse shoeing school. I had to learn almost more there than the other to make corrective shoes, and aluminum race plates for race horses, etc, plus the drag cars we have run in the past. Man we had to understand STRESS in metal on this one in every aspect.

Said all that humbly to say... Stress in metal or humans will cause an explosion, when all things line up just right. As in life, we can run around in great stress for a loooong time, but finally POW. There goes the heart or an organ etc..

Same with the drill pipe, horse shoes, drag car frames and engine componets etc, or BRASS cases haha.

Work it back and forth enough and I assure you, even if we've gotten by with it a good while, it is a dangerous bad habit.

Revolvers work on a different principle and ya got far more room to last your brass...



Well, this is my take and suggestion from what I hear and see, FWIW. Hope this helps some way for you amigo. I don't know it all... For sure, but I picked up a thing or two every now and then. Let's see , what were they now ! ha.


(i do not spell check.. ha)



Let us know pard !













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Old 07-26-2012, 18:45   #62
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by dm1906 View Post
Anyhoo.....The measurements....
Mouth = .424"
Middle = .429/.430"
Bulge = .433"
Head = .420"
Snug going back into the barrel, but fits.

Your chamber isn't your problem, unless both of ours are broken, near exactly the same.
Our fired brass size is near identical. I could be wrong, but I just don't think it is the barrel. It looks absolutely solid on the inside and out other than the mark from the case rupture.

Your sizer is also sizing back to right near mine too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanyonMan View Post
Tight as heck seating aren't they ?
They actually don't feel too bad on seating, but I agree with you, sometimes you end up with so much case bullet tension that you can forget about pulling. I guess I never though you can have too much case neck tension and that it would affect pressure in a serious way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanyonMan View Post
Alan, the barrel fit will be really loose and sloppy with those cases we're talking about (before firing) squeezed way down the way they are, I know ! haha. Do this. Take a piece of unfired new brass, and see how it fits into your chamber, as compared to the one you "sized down" with that die of yours.
The cases do seem like they are swimming in there. You can freely move it in all directions, sized or unsized.

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call Glock and demand a new barrel... 'I did." I called and got the general manager on the phone and gave him all the saami specs for the camber in every detail and he told the telephone tech, 'that was trying to blow me off, 'that I was right' , and send me a new barrel. This was a couple years ago with a G30... Shoots like a champ and 'tighter chamber'.
I really like this idea - I've emailed Glock and they told me the measurements I provided them were in spec.

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BUT, for now, what your dies are doing to the brass is my first concern. Play with that first, by (sorry) getting another brand die,
I ordered a Lee Deluxe set to see how I like it compared the Redding I have. I can return the Redding set and it may come to that. Out of curiosity, what does your RCBS size a case to?

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Well, as I believe it was 'Shadow' who told you, "brass can some times do this, even new brass.." ( I "paraphrased" Shadow's statement) But any brand brass, like anything else, can just have a 'weak spot', manufacture defect !
At first I wasn't thinking about the brass, but I had the same thing happen to me in a revolver with 38 special starline nickel brass and it was an odd experience that Starline said the brass wasn't right. I keep thinking of other expanded brass I've seen including 9mm stuff shot it subguns and how it balloons to an insane look but yet doesn't burst open and it really makes me question the brass. If the brass were more plyable, would it have creased in my early pictures or reformed?

Thanks the help and advice everyone!!

Alan
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Old 07-26-2012, 19:02   #63
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Hi,



Our fired brass size is near identical. I could be wrong, but I just don't think it is the barrel. It looks absolutely solid on the inside and out other than the mark from the case rupture.

Your sizer is also sizing back to right near mine too.



They actually don't feel too bad on seating, but I agree with you, sometimes you end up with so much case bullet tension that you can forget about pulling. I guess I never though you can have too much case neck tension and that it would affect pressure in a serious way.



The cases do seem like they are swimming in there. You can freely move it in all directions, sized or unsized.



I really like this idea - I've emailed Glock and they told me the measurements I provided them were in spec.



I ordered a Lee Deluxe set to see how I like it compared the Redding I have. I can return the Redding set and it may come to that. Out of curiosity, what does your RCBS size a case to?



At first I wasn't thinking about the brass, but I had the same thing happen to me in a revolver with 38 special starline nickel brass and it was an odd experience that Starline said the brass wasn't right. I keep thinking of other expanded brass I've seen including 9mm stuff shot it subguns and how it balloons to an insane look but yet doesn't burst open and it really makes me question the brass. If the brass were more plyable, would it have creased in my early pictures or reformed?

Thanks the help and advice everyone!!

Alan

Amigo, I got to hurry here as we actually have a storm with real RAIN coming !!!!! Man the ranch is dry as a bone, and this may help.

I don't have time to run figures at present, (as I just explained) But the LEE dies are what gave me the problem amigo, truy an RCBS, I don't care how dumb this sounds, It took me over a year to work all this out whith those two sizer dies... You may luckmout, I hope so. I have just shared with ya what I truly believe is the issue at this point. I stand to be very corrected.



dm1906 Is agood friend, and a good hombre, and he has good wisdom as well... Gave ya some good stuff.



But Do try the RCBS, as i said the LEE I tossed on the shelf to use no longer, uit gave me the bands at the bottom, perhaps you will be blessed with one that works right..


More later maybe, got to run fast here before the storm hits...


Bless ya



Good luck






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Old 07-26-2012, 19:10   #64
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Hi,

Hope you get some good rain!

I found this thread from just a couple of months ago - that talks about case splits being COMMON especially in starline brass with heavy or medium loads:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1423459

Are other brands known for this? What about Winchester?

We'll see how the Lee die works when it gets here - I may have to try a RCBS die...

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-26-2012, 19:32   #65
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Hi,

Hope you get some good rain!

I found this thread from just a couple of months ago - that talks about case splits being COMMON especially in starline brass with heavy or medium loads:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1423459

Are other brands known for this? What about Winchester?

We'll see how the Lee die works when it gets here - I may have to try a RCBS die...

Thanks,

Alan

Thanks ! Got to run again.. Just thought of something..

you said..

Quote:
They actually don't feel too bad on seating, but I agree with you, sometimes you end up with so much case bullet tension that you can forget about pulling. I guess I never though you can have too much case neck tension and that it would affect pressure in a serious way.
As i said it is good to have a nice snug fit, BUT when they are like 'your brass' (with the band at bottom) I am tellin ya bro, you seat them deeper than 1.260 with your "particular" squeezed down brass from that die, and you got "pressure"



Wish I could stay, had a thought and popped in a sec and did not want to forget... Gotta run here before storm hits ! Things to be done !







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Old 07-26-2012, 20:25   #66
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Alan,

Have you backed off the seating die as we discussed?

I havent seen you mention that yet. Your die set came with instructions, and in there is a white card with green lettering that explains the caution to take with the combo die sets.

I still think this is your issue, especially now after you talking about how tight the bullets are in there and the puller not getting them out.

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Old 07-26-2012, 20:27   #67
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Hope your Lee die set treats you better, mine have been great. I used mine a lot as well as Dillon dies. I also got one of those Lee Bulge Buster kits, and it works very well...although I shot many 10mm and .40 rounds through the years without one, it does a great job de-bulging the rest of the brass the Lee resizer can't reach.

I have some Top Brass that I've found to split like yours above (too brittle?). I would guess here that your issue is two fold, your dies and your brass. I've not used Starline nickle plated, but have had no issues with the Starline brass, so you might want to look into switching.
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Old 07-26-2012, 21:01   #68
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Have you backed off the seating die as we discussed?
I was going to do that, but I forgot until the rounds were already done this morning. I haven't tried to pull any yet, but I've 18 to pull. We'll see if I have enough bullet to grab with the collet puller or if I'll have to use the kinetic one.

Please tell me how you think raising the seating die will affect things - I checked for an instruction card, but all I found was a rifle and handgun die set and also a taper crimp and profile crimp instructions. I read through them but didn't see any warning (unless I missed it).

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Hope your Lee die set treats you better, mine have been great. I used mine a lot as well as Dillon dies. I also got one of those Lee Bulge Buster kits, and it works very well...although I shot many 10mm and .40 rounds through the years without one, it does a great job de-bulging the rest of the brass the Lee resizer can't reach.

I have some Top Brass that I've found to split like yours above (too brittle?). I would guess here that your issue is two fold, your dies and your brass. I've not used Starline nickle plated, but have had no issues with the Starline brass, so you might want to look into switching.
I could be wrong, but from the thread I posted in #64, it looks like this type of split is pretty common with Starline brass and OEM barrels. I'm not trying to pick on Starline here, but I'm getting the feeling that it is more brittle than other brands given that I don't see as many posts about other brands splitting as often. One post mentioned 10 out of 1000. With a better supported barrel, the brass isn't pushed as hard and Starline may be every bit as good as other brands and much better in price.

I am very tempted to pick up some Winchester brass and load it using my existing Redding dies as a simple test to see if it differs...

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-26-2012, 21:02   #69
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Originally Posted by CanyonMan View Post

dm1906 Is agood friend, and a good hombre, and he has good wisdom as well... Gave ya some good stuff.



But Do try the RCBS, as i said the LEE I tossed on the shelf to use no longer, uit gave me the bands at the bottom, perhaps you will be blessed with one that works right..


More later maybe, got to run fast here before the storm hits...


Bless ya



Good luck






CM
Thanks for the kind words, CM. I didn't suggest he not try an RCBS die. He has a replacement Lee die coming, and the one he was using is obviously flawed, in some way. If his condition doesn't change, then I would suggest another brand, as well. I use RCBS, Lee, and all rest, depending on the caliber. The RCBS die, unless it's a "custom grind", will be the same size as the Lee, or should be (they claim the same spec, off the shelf). I've had some bad RCBS dies over the years, and some bad Lees (more bad Lyman than any, but Lyman are good, when they're not bad). I'm just now retiring a Lee .45ACP die I've used for near 25 years, and about 60K through it (best guess, probably closer to 100K). I'm not pitching Lee, just saying one bad die by one individual isn't remarkable.

Anyway, I think he's working two problems here. The case split was with new brass. That's a problem in and of itself, and the die hadn't touched it yet. It's looking more and more like he got a load of bad brass. At the same time, there's no way anyone (in his right mind) would try to use brass looking like what he sized. My brass, measured to be nearly identical to his, come out of the die with just the slightest hint of a transition from bottom of the die stroke to the web. Nothing remotely resembling a magnum rifle band. I have seen this with other calibers, but for different reasons. You may have had a bad die, as well. That's only a few I've heard of, not including mine. I'm sure there a lot more, but this is a large community and the statistics say so. It can happen, just like with RCBS or any of the other big names. The Lee pistol dies I've used have generally been excellent, and at least on par with the other brand-name dies (not including specialties), and better than some. I have a bunch of Lee rifle dies and they're OK, but prefer others for most. RCBS does make excellent neck sizers, though.

Take care, friend.
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Old 07-26-2012, 21:03   #70
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Hi,

I moved your reply from the other thread to this one...

Here is what they look like after resizing.

The 10 Ring

Thanks,

Alan


Alan,

Guys , got to call it a night here for me... But a picture is worth a thousand words ... Alan, your brass is sized way to tight. The bullets are seated to deep and to tightly. the bands on the bottom of the cases will bust I assure you.

My Lee sizer die did this as I showed you in my (poor cell pic I did for ya).


MINE...

The 10 Ring

Because of this, pressures went up. This and seating to deep with these BD loads are a mess looking to happen my amigo.

Plus the re-working of the brass in a semi auto "especially" and in a Glock OEM "especially, running hot loads is putting a really weak stress spot on that buldged area every time you resize it down. Because of the nature of the size of the buldge it makes the sizing, re-sizing even worse in these type guns, with these type loads..... One day !

Don't make it complicated.. It is a matter of a new die, watch your COAL, "go by the load data book" for the bullet and powder charge being used and the COAL they say to use with that bullet and primer and powder charge... It is the book for a reason !

No reason you should not be great, if ya follow these simple steps.


Hope the new die works for ya my friend. I feel for ya. I been there and done that.. Not being smart. I still reccomend the RCBS sizer die for the 10mm. You try these things and then decide. I'm sure you'll be fine. These are meant to be suggestions based on my experience with the same issue.

Unless you use an AM barrel, no matter what others may do, I do encourage you to only use your hottest loads a couple times in that OEM barrel, per piece of brass, then go down in the loading of them if your going to stay with the stock barrel. Again amigo, this ain't a revolver, and it ain't even a greatly supported semi auto to begin with so use sense and stay safe with it all..



Bless ya!

I'm confident you will do well... Be encouraged !



P>S> We did not get the rain at all... AS usual, it went around us. About 10/12 years with hardly a rain, and over a year now with none at all. The ranch could be called "gone with the wind." Now if we just get through summer with no fires !!







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Old 07-26-2012, 21:15   #71
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Thanks for the kind words, CM. I didn't suggest he not try an RCBS die. He has a replacement Lee die coming, and the one he was using is obviously flawed, in some way. If his condition doesn't change, then I would suggest another brand, as well. I use RCBS, Lee, and all rest, depending on the caliber. The RCBS die, unless it's a "custom grind", will be the same size as the Lee, or should be (they claim the same spec, off the shelf). I've had some bad RCBS dies over the years, and some bad Lees (more bad Lyman than any, but Lyman are good, when they're not bad). I'm just now retiring a Lee .45ACP die I've used for near 25 years, and about 60K through it (best guess, probably closer to 100K). I'm not pitching Lee, just saying one bad die by one individual isn't remarkable.

Anyway, I think he's working two problems here. The case split was with new brass. That's a problem in and of itself, and the die hadn't touched it yet. It's looking more and more like he got a load of bad brass. At the same time, there's no way anyone (in his right mind) would try to use brass looking like what he sized. My brass, measured to be nearly identical to his, come out of the die with just the slightest hint of a transition from bottom of the die stroke to the web. Nothing remotely resembling a magnum rifle band. I have seen this with other calibers, but for different reasons. You may have had a bad die, as well. That's only a few I've heard of, not including mine. I'm sure there a lot more, but this is a large community and the statistics say so. It can happen, just like with RCBS or any of the other big names. The Lee pistol dies I've used have generally been excellent, and at least on par with the other brand-name dies (not including specialties), and better than some. I have a bunch of Lee rifle dies and they're OK, but prefer others for most. RCBS does make excellent neck sizers, though.

Take care, friend.


Hey pard,

Well trouble with all the posting is some times we're all posting at the same time, so we don't see what the other guy says until it is to late as you and I and fire medic and I have done a couple times here tonight. PLUS, I am so tired I'm about to drop ! ha

I truly inderstand anything can go bad.. Not picking on LEE at all. Not at all.. I have a few lee dies , work great. Just talking about my lee vs his whatever, that was doing the same thing and causing this problem.. a new die will change all this and him stretching out the COAL with those powder charges...

I even failed to mention in my post/s that I (after trashin a for sure BAD Lee sizer die) had RCBS make my die .1K under size.

Now if you think about that for a moment and take into account my brass looks el perfecto NOW, and my die is .1K undersize... And the Lee I had, and the die this boy (OP) is using put the magnum looking bands on the brass and squeezed it down so tight, can you imagine how BAD his is, If I am FINE with mine now at .1k undersize ?

Well I hear ya amigo.
I am just noddin off here.


Good stuff !
Please stay safe !











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Old 07-26-2012, 21:26   #72
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I just recently had a box of Federal AE brass that had several split on the first firing, and several split on the second. The ones that didn't split seem to be fine. A few would look good, but then would split in the size die. It didn't matter much, just meant that I didn't get full use out of the brass. At this point I chalk the vertical splits up to bad lots of brass. Other brass going through the same load, dies, and barrel have no problem.
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Old 07-26-2012, 21:30   #73
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Hi,

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Originally Posted by dm1906 View Post
Anyway, I think he's working two problems here. The case split was with new brass. That's a problem in and of itself, and the die hadn't touched it yet.
Actually it had, I always resize brass (even new). See the picture in post #51 and look at the base of the two unshot rounds - no banding in the bottom of them and that was resized with the Redding die.

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It's looking more and more like he got a load of bad brass. At the same time, there's no way anyone (in his right mind) would try to use brass looking like what he sized.
I agree completely; I sure can't see anyone trying to use brass with a crease like that on it.

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My brass, measured to be nearly identical to his, come out of the die with just the slightest hint of a transition from bottom of the die stroke to the web.
This is what makes me question the brass. The crease, the side split in a new case with a medium level commonly used load. I'm not saying the Redding isn't sizing a bit aggressively, or that the OEM barrel doesn't allow a bit of bulge, but others have used the OEM barrel and others have had their brass sized to 0.417 and they have not seen these issues that I know of.

I also don't think there is an overpressure situation either because there are no other factors. Velocity isn't higher. CCI 300 Primer isn't flattened at all. It didn't feel hot. I've shot a lot of ammo with a similar tight look around the bullet without any issues.

I'm going to try some Winchester 10mm brass and I'm debating whether to load them the SAME way to see if I get similar results or not.

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-26-2012, 21:44   #74
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I apologize if this was brought up, but I am a little short on time tonight and some of the posts above are really long...

I have had regular Starline brass split after the first loading. Not often but it does happen.
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Old 07-27-2012, 06:03   #75
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Hi,

Well...I'm starting to get frustrated and beginning to question the brass...

I loaded up 20 more rounds:
10 of Blue Dot 10gr for 180gr GDHP, CCI 300, 1.250 oal, new starline nickel
10 of Accurate #7 9.6gr for 200gr XTP, CCI 300, 1.250 oal, new starline nickel

Only fired 2 rounds before STOPPING:

The 10 Ring

First round 1116 fps, stopped, picked up case, looked pretty good other than the ballooning which didn't even seem to bad.

Second case 1136 fps, stopped picked up case, noticed the large vertical split in it and decided not to shoot the remaining 18 rounds...

Not a hot load, it chrono'd at 1136 fps, but split nasty. I am really starting to wonder about Starline Nickel brass. I had this happen once a few years ago with Starline Nickel and 38 special - sent the brass to Starline and they said the brass was bad.

What do you guys think??? I gotta go and see if I can polish out the burn mark in my G20 chamber.... :(

Thanks,

Alan
Alank2, your rounds seem to be overcrimped at least what I see on these pictures. Take an electronic digital caliper and measure a loaded round at the upper edge where case ends. If it's less than 0.419 I suppose it's overcrimped and you should adjust your crimping die to 0.420 (+ - 0.001). Worth a try IMO.
Or better said, the number you get at the middle of bullet seated should be the same at the end of case. Don't go under it, you'll get nothing but overpressure and bullet jackets scratched, maybe damaged.
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