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Old 07-23-2012, 21:36   #21
Fire_Medic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alank2 View Post
I'm going to contact Redding
Which Redding dies are you using? No one has asked so I will. Because I also own a Dillon 550B and I use the Redding Pro Series dies which are tungsten/carbide dies and they have been perfect for the 3 years or so I have been using them in 9mm, 40SW, and 45ACP.

Just got the 10MM stuff in, including the dies, so I can provide feedback, but I will tell you this. I started out reloading 40SW, and with the redding dies I have NEVER needed a FCD, or GRX dies, etc, and my 40 SW Glocks all used stock barrels.

If you're die is steel, you need case lube, from your description it would seem you have set the die up properly so that does not concern me.

One more photo that will help the group, is if you could take a picture of one of your loaded up rounds sitting in your barrel with the barrel out of the pistol, so we can see how much case support you do or do not have.

If you want I can try some pics tomorrow comparing the Barsto barrel I just got to my stock barrel from the G20SF.

I have not shot mine yet, but will soon.

FM
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Old 07-23-2012, 22:48   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alank2 View Post
Hi Guys,

When you resize a case, what does it resize to? I was measuring in about the middle of the case. Mine is 0.4165" to 0.417"...

Do you guys think the nickel makes this worse?

Thanks,

Alan
Through my RCBS carbide die, the diameter in the middle of the case is 0.419".
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Old 07-24-2012, 00:01   #23
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Alan,

I also have the Redding Titanium Carbide die. It sizes the brass down to about .418". The carbide part of my die has a shiny mirror finish and a fairly generous radius on it.

I do remember someone having a similar issue with the sizing rings on his brass a while back. I'll see if I can locate the thread. His problem was that he was trying to get full power loads using a powder that was just too fast for the application, so the brass was flowing outward at the case head a bit too much. When the sizer got to the case head, it left a similar ring. It doesn't seem like that is your problem if the largest diameter at your case heads measures .425"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
Do you mean 0.434"? After firing a hot load?
Taterhead,

I'm definitely in the minority here on how I determine pressure limits from fired brass measurements. I know most people measure the case expansion along the thin walls of the case, and that does have some merit. The reason I don't measure there is that part of the brass is constrained by the chamber when it expands, and there is almost always a little bit of spring-back after the pressure drops. So the expansion there approaches a diminishing number as you approach maximum pressure. Instead, I measure expansion at the case head, which is around the thick part of the brass web just above the extraction groove. Even though the expansion there is not as large on a moderately loaded round, the brass isn't constrained by the chamber there, so it is free to increase as the pressure goes up. You get a much more linear measurement, especially at max loadings. I also only measure the first loading with Starline brass. After the first firing, you don't really know what the starting dimension of the case head was, and the brass will start work hardening more after each firing.

I'm not saying one method is right and the other is wrong, I just have found that for me, measuring at the case head gives me what I feel is more useful data.
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:01   #24
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Hi Everyone,

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeWilly View Post
.418" from the case mouth to where the sizer ends with the die mouth a paper's width off the shellplate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
Through my RCBS carbide die, the diameter in the middle of the case is 0.419".
Thanks guys, I was reading last night and I saw a post where someone mentioned that Redding reduced the size to 0.415" to increase case tension. Not sure if that is true or not, but I don't want to see the brass worked more than it needs to be. Mine are 0.4165 to 0.417 which isn't much differnent that 0.418 or 0.419, but I have to wonder if it is just too much after firing expansion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _The_Shadow View Post
The answer is to try the redding GRX "Pass-Thru" or the LEE FCD as a "Pass-Thru die", LEE also sells the Bulge Buster kit. I use the LEE FCD with the guts removed as a "Pass-Thru die". This has reconditiond brass to fit the Cartridge Gauge without any sharp edges. The "SMILE" condition brass can NOT be reconditioned period!
Which leads me to consider trying this. If I were to resize the entire piece (assuming NO smile), would it then survive the resize without the crease...

One other option I am considering is could my press be out of alignment. I had this happen once years ago and the result was a hard pushed edge at the base of brass in 38 special.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire_Medic View Post
Which Redding dies are you using? No one has asked so I will. Because I also own a Dillon 550B and I use the Redding Pro Series dies which are tungsten/carbide dies and they have been perfect for the 3 years or so I have been using them in 9mm, 40SW, and 45ACP.
They are the Pro series carbine TIC dies. I have been using these exclusively because I like them so much. The left is 9mm from 4-5 years ago, the middle is a 44mag from a few months ago, and the 40/10mm is the one of the right just ordered from Midway. I really like the way the radius is on the 9mm and it has a full height carbine ring to taper a 9mm case properly. The other two are straight wall cases and have a shorter carbine ring, but the ring is different. I'm not surprised it is inset for protection these days, but it lacks the type of radius the 9mm one has.

Note that the 40/10mm die is much duller than the other two. You can really see it in the bottom picture with the flash. It has many tiny little pits in it.

The 10 Ring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire_Medic View Post
One more photo that will help the group, is if you could take a picture of one of your loaded up rounds sitting in your barrel with the barrel out of the pistol, so we can see how much case support you do or do not have.
I shot up all my test loads!! I can say that if I put even an unsized Starline case in there that it is free to move all around with tons of wiggle room. Is there a way to measure a chamber?

I am tempted to return the Redding set and try out a Lee Deluxe set with the bulge buster. It is either that or return it for replacement and see if the next resizing die looks normal. FireMedic - how does your sizing die look if you recently bought it?

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:55   #25
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Alan I have not set mine up yet for 10MM, but I will try and snap some pictures from you today. I will say though, that I bought the 10MM set, not the combo 40/10 set, I don't think there would be a difference in the sizing die but maybe there is. The guy who turned me on to these dies some time ago told me if they make a combo set AND they make a set for just the caliber you need, buy the set made just for the caliber you need. I was never given an explanation why but that's how I have done it. Maybe someone can chime in on what the differences would be?

And I only offered up my info on the 40SW because back a few years everyone was saying how dangerous 40 is/was to load, and you HAVE to have a FCD if you shoot from a Glock barrel, blah, blah, blah. And well 40 is a shorter 10MM.

Anyhow, these die sets are top notch and I would really like to see this play out to find the issue, because it would surprise me if it was the sizing die, hence why so many people are after the GRX die, who makes it, Redding, and it's of the same material as the T/C Pro Series die sets.

I will report back a little later, I can snap pics for you, and I will try and see if I can get any clear pics of some of the Underwood ammo I got in my bars to barrel just for chits and giggles.

FM
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:29   #26
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Alan,

I am not the most experienced of the reloaders around these parts, but I do have experience with these die sets. I was doing some thinking and then verified with the instructions. I really think I know what your issue is.

You have a combo set for both 40SW and 10MM. When you switch to reload for the longer case, you need back the seating dies (station 3 for you on your 550) an extra 1/8" or so to compensate for the extra length of the 10MM case VS the 40SW. You cannot simply screw the die down to the shell plate and back off a bit as that would be for the shorter 40SW.

Please give this a try and attempt to resize another case and let me know if this does the trick.

Thanks
Gabe
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:50   #27
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Hi Gabe,

Good idea, but I just checked the bullet seating die and it is 1/8" above the shellplate when the shellplate is up.

I did some measurements on the G20SF chamber using what I have. A 0.420" unsized starline case and some 0.005" masking tape. It would seem that it is 0.425" at the case mouth end of the chamber (as I can snugly fit a case with masking take on one side into it), but the case head end of the chamber is larger. I can fit a case with two sides masking taped (0.430") and spin it. My guess would be the case mouth end of the chamber is near 0.425" and the case head end is near 0.430". This is assuming my crude way of measuring is at all close to being valid...

The same case without masking tape seems to swim around in the chamber, easily rocked from side to side, etc.

I got an email reply from Redding so I pointed them to the pictures in this thread to get their opinion.

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:58   #28
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Needs to be an "extra" 1/8" from where it would already be backed out for 40SW, back it out another 1/4" or so, if you only have 1/8" total it's still not backed out enough.

Then resize another case and see what happens, that should do it.
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:01   #29
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Hi,

Gabe - I'm unfortunately out of fired cases - I need to go back to the range and "make" some more. I'll back it up another 1/8" and see how it does when I get some cases to try. Thanks!

Here a picture of an unsized starline case (0.420) in the chamber:

The 10 Ring

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:23   #30
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Ok Alan, here's some pics. One set with the Barsto Semi Drop-in barrel, and another set with the factory Glock barrel. And one of the gun with the Barsto just as a thanks to Nick for the barrel trade

The 10 Ring

This is a brand new Starline case in the Barsto Barrel:
The 10 Ring

This is new Underwood 180gr FMJ in Barsto barrel:
The 10 Ring

Underwood 180gr Golden Sabre JHP in Barsto Barrel:
The 10 Ring

And this is once fired brass (180gr American Eagle FMJ) shot out of the factory barrel but not resized or anything yet, in the Barsto barrel. Note how it won't even drop in:
The 10 Ring
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:27   #31
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Now the stock barrel:

Brand new Starline case in stock barrel:
The 10 Ring

Underwood 180gr FMJ in Stock barrel:
The 10 Ring

Underwood 180gr Golden Sabre JHP in Stock barrel:
The 10 Ring

And the real shocker, here's that same piece of once fired AE brass that wouldn't drop into the Barsto:
The 10 Ring
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:29   #32
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Hi,

Excellent pictures!!! How much wobble is there in the Glock barrel with the ammo - can you move it left/right/up/down a bit?

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:35   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alank2 View Post
Hi,

Excellent pictures!!! How much wobble is there in the Glock barrel with the ammo - can you move it left/right/up/down a bit?

Thanks,

Alan
Very minimal movement in the Barsto, but yes movement in the Glock barrel.
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:33   #34
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Good stuff Fire Medic, that right there is why I started using a"Pass-Thru sizing system". I have been using the LEE FCD as a"Pass-Thru sizer" with great results reconditioning my brass. Acartridge case gauge is even tighter than the Bar-Sto chamber.
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Old 07-24-2012, 13:50   #35
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Most of this stuff is a non issue. The stock chamber is much bigger. If your dies are right, you don't need a pass thru die. I used Lee dies and sized brass from a factory barrel, and it fit fine in a super tight LoneWolf. The problem is in the dies, most likely the sizing ring. The big problem is that the die is scraping down the brass, rather than squeezing it. There is no need for a different barrel, pass-thru die, etc. You may need your sizer die fixed.

FWIW, I size 10 and 40 brass in the same die position w/ no issues.
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Old 07-24-2012, 14:13   #36
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Most of this stuff is a non issue. The stock chamber is much bigger. If your dies are right, you don't need a pass thru die. I used Lee dies and sized brass from a factory barrel, and it fit fine in a super tight LoneWolf. The problem is in the dies, most likely the sizing ring. The big problem is that the die is scraping down the brass, rather than squeezing it. There is no need for a different barrel, pass-thru die, etc. You may need your sizer die fixed.

FWIW, I size 10 and 40 brass in the same die position w/ no issues.
I agree with this viewpoint. My Dillon sizer has a bigger radius at the mouth than a Lee die and my cases when reloaded fit my KKM barrel fine. Now I do have to say, my KKM barrel is no way as tight or have case support at the ramp like Fire Medic's Barsto. In fact, the difference between my KKM and stock barrel, as it pertains to chamber fit and support around the ramp) is not very great at all (in 10mm, different story on my G21SF).

I get better accuracy out of my stock barrel than my KKM so I rarely use it anyway, so it really isn't an issue for me at all.
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Old 07-24-2012, 14:22   #37
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Hi,

I've been emailing back and forth with Redding a couple of times today and they called me to discuss the issue. He said the pitting look in the picture above is simply because that surface wasn't as polished as my other dies. I did look deeper into the die and the inside of the ring is polished smooth. He also said that it is possible that by sizing the entire case first using their through case sizer might reduce the case ahead of time to a size that the carbide sizer could reduce without the crease. They offered for me to send some cases in that they would run through it and send back so I could see if this would work. He also offered that I could send the die in and they would check it out. They are going to be closed after next week however for their summer vacation at Redding though. I can't complain about Redding support, but I'm still not sure the direction I want to try with this.

What is odd is that I think the side of the case with the bulge is opposite the side of the case with the crease.

I think I'm going to order a Lee Deluxe kit and their bulge buster and do some testing. I'm going to make some more fired cases and try them in the 4 possibilities: Redding sized only, Lee sized only, Lee bulge + Redding sized, Lee bulge + Lee sized...

Thanks,

Alan
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Old 07-24-2012, 20:22   #38
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Whatever is cool, but I have read that Lee dies size to the same size as their bulge buster. If you want to send me a few cases, I can size them in a regular die, and you can see if you want to invest in anything more than just a different sizer. PM me if you want to do that. Regardless, I hope you get it sorted out one way or another!
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Old 07-24-2012, 20:27   #39
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Hi Any Cal,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Any Cal. View Post
Whatever is cool, but I have read that Lee dies size to the same size as their bulge buster. If you want to send me a few cases, I can size them in a regular die, and you can see if you want to invest in anything more than just a different sizer. PM me if you want to do that. Regardless, I hope you get it sorted out one way or another!
I appreciate that - PM me your address and I'll send 5 cases as soon as I get some more fired ones for you to try to size. Thanks for the help!!

Alan
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Old 07-25-2012, 09:17   #40
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Hi,

By the way, I got my caliper out and measured the factory chamber dimensions :

case mouth 0.425"
case head 0.434"

I am wondering if a replacement barrel is really what I need, KKM, Storm Lake, etc..

Thanks,

Alan
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