[G17 Zombie Blaster]

Looking for a budget dot scope. Aimpoint and Eotech just are not in the near future. Kinda kickin' around the idea of a Primary Arms.What is the general thoughts on these? Include models please with your experience.
Thanks!

[WoodenPlank]

Originally Posted by G17 Zombie Blaster

Looking for a budget dot scope. Aimpoint and Eotech just are not in the near future. Kinda kickin' around the idea of a Primary Arms.What is the general thoughts on these? Include models please with your experience.
Thanks!

For a range/fun gun? Sure, why not. Plenty of people have had great luck with the PA optics(including my father), and Marshall goes out of his way to take care of his customers.

However, I wouldn't use one on a defensive rifle. Save up until you can afford the $400 cost of an Aimpoint pro.

[K. Foster]

With optics, you really do get what you pay for. I would recommend saving up for an Aimpoint or Eotech. That said, Primary Arms isn’t bad and Marshall is a good guy to do business with.

[MrMurphy]

What they said.

A PA is nice to practice with and get used to the idea, but it will not hold up to serious use.

Irons aren't quite as quick and in the dark, you're basically screwed, but they still work till you have the $$.

[Fwdftw]

Primary Arms micro works great. That being said , even marshal will tell you to go aimpoint or eotech on a serious gun.

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[raven11]

I have the


https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_..._p/pam4g2m.htm

Good sight, a little big. Muti reticle has a nice sound to it but most find the one they like and stick to it. It's a little big but you can choose your reticle and brightness and it takes AA batteries

https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_...h_p/md-08.html

It's small , lightweight , and has a decent battery life. I owned this sight the longest and It has been on a few AR and .22. For me I prefer this sight because it isn't as bulky and easy to zero . If I had to say a con the it would be the battery itself is a tad expensive at the store local to me but primary arms sells a pack of them for a good price.

Good luck on your search. I brought primary arms because my Eotech sits on my FN2000 and I just use my AR as my range gun. Maybe one day I'll save for a aimpoint but till then the PA is good practice

[BudMan5]

I am a retieed Army (Infantry) 1SG.

Some of the not so familiar brands of RDs are actually pretty good.

I am always somewhat confused by people who say things like "not for serious use".

What is meant by that? My days of dropping out of a C-17 or landing in an LZ in a Blackhawk or rappelling from...whatever are pretty much done.

I consider 'serious use' as the mere fact of pointing a gun at someone.

There are a lot of decent RDs out there besides Airmpoit, Trijicon and EOTech. All three of those companies have huge expenditures making their RDs to meet or exec mil-dot specs and then having to bid for government contracts at the lowerst possible price to still make a profit.

They make up some of that money by charging as much as possible to their civilian customers who, being Americans, are fashion concious and want only what is considered the best.

I had a chance to tyry and use a Lucid HD7 that is being used by my local Sheriff's department and I have to tell you, it's a really, really good RD. And it's just over $200.00 and comes with an optional 2x-5x magnifier.

By all means buty a cheaper RD and use the crap out of it and if at the end of the shooting season if you're happy with it, keep using it.

If you find something wrong and have some extera bucks by all means move up. Buty if not, take the extra bucks and attend a weekend tactical carbine class and learn how to get the most out of your rifle/carbine.

[copenhagen2001]

Serious use??? What is considered "serious use" I'm not teaching carbine classes 5 days a week, last time I checked...Aliens are not turning my world into "falling skies" I don't have gang bangers kicking in my doors.
Like 1Sgt. said my days of rappeling, or jumping out of a huey on a lz are over. That being said...I've got a handful of buddies, all shoot different R.D, bushnell, Vortex, barska, Aimpoint, P.A, etc, etc. Not 1 has the same set up. Buy what you can afford, don't let society dictate to you what to buy. Just
I.M.O

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[WoodenPlank]

Originally Posted by copenhagen2001

Serious use??? What is considered "serious use" I'm not teaching carbine classes 5 days a week, last time I checked...Aliens are not turning my world into "falling skies" I don't have gang bangers kicking in my doors.
Like 1Sgt. said my days of rappeling, or jumping out of a huey on a lz are over. That being said...I've got a handful of buddies, all shoot different R.D, bushnell, Vortex, barska, Aimpoint, P.A, etc, etc. Not 1 has the same set up. Buy what you can afford, don't let society dictate to you what to buy. Just
I.M.O

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Any weapon or device you are willing to stake your life behind - be it as a CCW piece or for HD use - is a "serious use" item.

[raven11]

Originally Posted by WoodenPlank

Any weapon or device you are willing to stake your life behind - be it as a CCW piece or for HD use - is a "serious use" item.

and if I wanted a "serious use" item I wouldn't write that I was "Looking for a budget dot scope. Aimpoint and Eotech just are not in the near future."

[WoodenPlank]

Originally Posted by raven11

and if I wanted a "serious use" item I wouldn't write that I was "Looking for a budget dot scope. Aimpoint and Eotech just are not in the near future."

You might not, but plenty of other people have asked the same question in the past, then revealed it would be for their main HD rifle.

[TangoFoxtrot]

Originally Posted by BudMan5

I am a retieed Army (Infantry) 1SG.

Some of the not so familiar brands of RDs are actually pretty good.

I am always somewhat confused by people who say things like "not for serious use".

What is meant by that? My days of dropping out of a C-17 or landing in an LZ in a Blackhawk or rappelling from...whatever are pretty much done.

I consider 'serious use' as the mere fact of pointing a gun at someone.

There are a lot of decent RDs out there besides Airmpoit, Trijicon and EOTech. All three of those companies have huge expenditures making their RDs to meet or exec mil-dot specs and then having to bid for government contracts at the lowerst possible price to still make a profit.

They make up some of that money by charging as much as possible to their civilian customers who, being Americans, are fashion concious and want only what is considered the best.

I had a chance to tyry and use a Lucid HD7 that is being used by my local Sheriff's department and I have to tell you, it's a really, really good RD. And it's just over $200.00 and comes with an optional 2x-5x magnifier.

By all means buty a cheaper RD and use the crap out of it and if at the end of the shooting season if you're happy with it, keep using it.

If you find something wrong and have some extera bucks by all means move up. Buty if not, take the extra bucks and attend a weekend tactical carbine class and learn how to get the most out of your rifle/carbine.

Well said Top!

[copenhagen2001]

Originally Posted by WoodenPlank

Any weapon or device you are willing to stake your life behind - be it as a CCW piece or for HD use - is a "serious use" item.

Thanks Again for the clarification, I know what "Serious Use Means" take a step back, realize the humor.
But then again...when I was in, they were allowing us to mount Tasco scopes to ours. Today...Tasco wouldn't be considered as an option. Some of us on here, to include me just shoot, I go to the range, place my stands up, practice.
Original poster, asked for budget...all of a sudden it turns to serious use.


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[K. Foster]

For the record, no one has said Primary Arms was bad.
I have never seen so many people get upset over the recommendation of quality equipment.

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by K. Foster

For the record, no one has said Primary Arms was bad.
I have never seen so many people get upset over the recommendation of quality equipment.

THe frustration with this topic runs pretty deep, and some of the replies here highlight the reasons why many AR owners post a few times in this forum, and then leave.

The repeated cries of "serious fighting gun" and "serious use" are a joke. Most people here, even retired militar folks, own an AR for pleasure and entertainment, and HD/SD is a secondary concern.

What would be the problem of using a PA RDS for SD/HD? If it works, and never has any problems, what are the concerns? It's like too many people envision HD/SD as some sort of battle field where they will be engaged by hostile forces for hours, instead of a quick one or two shots, and it's over. No one is jumping out of helicopters, banging their optic around. These rifles get used at the range, and then placed in a safe, under a bed, or in a closet. There is no need for an optic to be super rugged, as they don't get used in such a fashion by 99% of civilians.

This crapola just gets tiring. There's no reason to not use a $200 RDS for HD/SD, other than a burning self-esteem based need to own what SpecOpsReconForceCommandos use. Hell, if you think about it logically, it is better to suggest a higher-quality optic like an Eotech for range use, because they're going to give you a more accurate 1MOA dot, rather than being concerned about it's use for HD/SD.

I'd use a PA RDS for HD/SD with more confidence in a SD/HD situation, than I would at the range. HD/SD shooting distances are stupidly short for an AR, so it's not important that it have an accurate, 1MOA dot. You just need something that is nice and bright, nothing more than a dot you place center of mass.

[BudMan5]

When I fought in Vietnam, waaaaaay back when, we seemed to do just fine without optics. (at least we were winning when I left)

Then I came home and was a cop for eighteen years 9worked my way up to chief of a small department) and I made it rthrough with no optics (or even an AR15 but we did have M1 carbines)

Then,becoming bored, i retired early and went back into the Army on active duty. Now i had an M16A2 but still no optics.

Some of my 'kids' went oiut and bought the old 4x Colt rifle scope and other than for annual qualification, we let them use them.

Desert Shield/Desert Storm, Panama, and Somalia and we still didn't have optics.

The M16 semed to do just fine.

But, now we have optics and truthfully, they make the weapon even better than it already was but also truthfully, all they really do is make the rifle better. You can still use the rifle just fine without optics and when the optics do fail you still need to be able to use the iron sights.

I love the "show your carbine" threads and see folks with all of these really neat things strapped onto their shooters and every time I see it i can't help but think, "I sure wouldn't want to hump that thing". I learned a long time ago that weight is everything when you're taking a long stroll.

Iron sights are just fine for "serious shooting" and have proved their worth over and over again.

And the same thing for optics. Cheap optics are better than just iron sights and expensive optics are better than cheap optics but the real bottom line is, learn to shopot and use your rifle/carbine first, and then worry about enhancing it.

[K. Foster]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

The repeated cries of "serious fighting gun" and "serious use" are a joke. Most people here, even retired militar folks, own an AR for pleasure and entertainment, and HD/SD is a secondary concern.

If home and self defense is joke or secondary concern to you, that’s fine. I take it seriously.
When somebody asks a question, I take that seriously as well and try to give them the best advise I can. If you or anyone else thinks my advise isn’t good.... Don’t take it.

[Warp]

Originally Posted by WoodenPlank

Any weapon or device you are willing to stake your life behind - be it as a CCW piece or for HD use - is a "serious use" item.

I concur

[BudMan5]

LIGHTEN UP FRANCIS SGT. HULKA STRIPES - YouTube

LIGHTEN UP FRANCIS SGT. HULKA STRIPES - YouTube

[G17 Zombie Blaster]

Thank you all for your opinions. As with most posts on here people spend more time arguing with eachother rather than providing personal experience to the OP.

These two ARs that may eventually get optics are my 5y.o. son and I's father/son builds. They will be primarily range guns. They could be pressed into the HD/SD role if circumstances and contact range dictate (glocks and 870s work inside for me). But for now will be shot in our backyard range and stored for SHTF when their not eating ammo. I would imagine we will stick to irons for a while, as that is how I learned and carried them during my LEO tour. But as with most kids, the little man has already got his eye on the future. I personally want to keep mine as KISS(light) as possible. But I love mine youngin's, we shoot together weekly(Mommy, Daddy, 5y.o. son, and 7y.o. daughter) and it is a right that they LOVE to enjoy!

This is us last week visiting Red Jacket on vacation. Son told Flem that he wasn't buying their AR, but was looking at them for ideas for his build. PRICELESS!

[mjkeat]

Anyone who has owned both, an H1/T1 and a PA Micro knows there's a huge difference in every aspect. I own multiples of both. PAs have their place no doubt but even the owner of PA says "not for serious use." In a world of immoral salesmen that should speak volumes.

There's a difference b/w quality in budget optics like PA's Micro or Lucids H7 and Aimpoints H1/T1. Even on the static range it's obvious.

When researching parts many use Google. It's always to clarify recommendations as to avoid confusion. Not everyone reading the posts here know each posters experience level.

The guys crying about the recommendations for quality are usually doing nothing but defending their purchase. It's sad that so many have such a resistance to quality. It's even funnier when guys talk down on individuals who desire the knowledge to be able to actually run their equipment properly.

Irons have been surpassed. The optics of today such as the RDS we are discussing represent a vast improvement in speed and accuracy. In todays environment running irons only places you behind the curve out of the gate.

[K. Foster]

Originally Posted by G17 Zombie Blaster

This is us last week visiting Red Jacket on vacation. Son told Flem that he wasn't buying their AR, but was looking at them for ideas for his build. PRICELESS!

That is priceless, glad you had a good time.

[delinder]

Burris FastFire. About $200.

[BudMan5]

"Irons have been surpassed"

Even when there is a CME or EMP event and your optics fry?? even when when your batteries get wet and short out or just go dead? Even when your optic takes a really hard hit and busts? Even when you come out of an outdoor temp of 32 degrees into a heated building where a sniper is hiding? Or from an outdoor temp of 100 degrees into an air condoitioned room?

I actually mean no offense by this but my experience is real world in real combat on multiple continents. I have been shot and I have shot people. I am a graduate of the Small Arms Instructor Training Course at Fort Benning (the long course known as SAITS)and either directly or as a supervising instructor, trained thousands of people on the M16.

Red Dots are nice as are CQB 'scopes but they are not the be all in combat.

I was a soldier but I would gladly bet on any USMC 0311 using an iron sighted rifle over anyone else using a red dot at small arm engagement range. They are trained that well.

Argue your point all you want but be before you claim with absolute certainty that you are right, you need stop and think about what you are writing.

Again, I mean no personal offense but you are not going to win an arguement based on "because I said so"

[mjkeat]

I think you said it best, "Argue your point all you want but be before you claim with absolute certainty that you are right, you need stop and think about what you are writing."

Research the extreme temps of Ft. Drum and the specs of Aimpoint optics. -21 was our cut-off for PT and training was allowed to continue at much colder temps. and often did. Burried in snow or in the marshy forests of Drum caused no issues. Being slammed against trees and rocks a non issue as well. Going from -21 or as cold as -41 to a blazing hot arms room or barracks, again no issues. Rugged terrain and mountains of Afghanistan, non issue. Elcan M145s, ACOGs, Aimpoints, never an issue. Batteries? I can't recall a single person changing their batteries during deployment.

This is why people recommend quality optics over others. It has nothing to do w/ what the cool guys w/ blurred out faces are using.

Modern sighting devices such as red dots are an improvement over irons. "Just fine" shouldn't be good enough when human life is at stake.

Because I said so? How about because I've experienced it first hand?

I want to add that soldiers of wars past, from what I know, most deffinately had a rougher time than we did. I harbor a lot of respect for the men who blazed the path for us.