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Old 08-14-2012, 21:12   #21
Warp
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Indeed I can. There aren't any.

I like Mas. I like most, almost all, of what he puts out. But you aren't giving a true rendition of things. We aren't talking some dope deal gone bad or some mistaken identity shooting. In this thread, you specifically chose to address self-defense in a home invasion. If you really think that you're going to be sued, let alone found at fault, because you used an unattractive or overly powerful rifle in repelling boarders, you're operating in an unwarranted state of paranoia. You made the claim, please back it up. Show us a single example of a resident being sued by the home invasion crew because of the use of a rifle, either because it wasn't PC, or because it was too powerful.

Don't give something a power that it doesn't have.
I'm with Sam.

I have an AR sitting loaded in the bedroom as we speak. I have no qualms about using whatever legal small arm I believe is most effective within my own home.
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Old 08-14-2012, 21:30   #22
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This thread really makes me stop and think. I could see where 5.56 could be a good thing(bad guy shooting at me from around a doorway for example).. we have a newer house and 55gr FMJ would penetrate one wall like it wasnt there. And still have enough energy to deal with the bag guy on the other side. And would the home invader(s) take any cover they may find; fridge, freezer or whatever? As for the OP, my go to gun is my 870, 21"bbl full choke. 100% reliable always. May be time to save up for a .357 or .44magnum lever action.
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Old 08-14-2012, 21:53   #23
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This thread really makes me stop and think. I could see where 5.56 could be a good thing(bad guy shooting at me from around a doorway for example).. we have a newer house and 55gr FMJ would penetrate one wall like it wasnt there. And still have enough energy to deal with the bag guy on the other side. And would the home invader(s) take any cover they may find; fridge, freezer or whatever? As for the OP, my go to gun is my 870, 21"bbl full choke. 100% reliable always. May be time to save up for a .357 or .44magnum lever action.

Pistols and shotguns are both likely to penetrate more interior walls than 5.56.
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Old 08-15-2012, 17:12   #24
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Missouri is a castle doctrine state, so home intruders are fair game. If the DA determines that your actions were justifiable, you are also protected from civil action.

I totally agree with you on the Mini-14! Shoots the same round as the AR without the "scary gun" appearance. When making firearms-related decisions, I like to put it through the "court of law" test. How would this look in a court of law? For example, I don't buy anything with "Zombie" written on it, I don't keep my used shooting targets, and I'm trying to keep myself from buying an AK. You know what they say: the AK is the Glock of rifles! I think that's how the saying goes.
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Old 08-15-2012, 17:20   #25
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Missouri is a castle doctrine state, so home intruders are fair game.
I don't think you understand what the "castle doctrine" laws did.
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Old 08-15-2012, 17:48   #26
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Uh no, the main advantage of a rifle over a pistol is stopping power.

I hate to disagree, but I will anyway. Since we all know that placement is an important part of the equation there isn't much difference between a well placed round from any of several handgun/load combinations, and a rifle round at indoor ranges and there is also very little difference between a badly placed round with either. a rifle indoors will not turn a bad shot into a good one nor will it make the bad guy any "deader" with a good shot. A rifle or appropriately, a carbine just makes the placement more precise, in the right hands.

The long gun extends the range at which you can effectively apply the energy over a handgun.
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Old 08-15-2012, 18:02   #27
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I hate to disagree, but I will anyway. Since we all know that placement is an important part of the equation there isn't much difference between a well placed round from any of several handgun/load combinations, and a rifle round at indoor ranges and there is also very little difference between a badly placed round with either. a rifle indoors will not turn a bad shot into a good one nor will it make the bad guy any "deader" with a good shot. A rifle or appropriately, a carbine just makes the placement more precise, in the right hands.

The long gun extends the range at which you can effectively apply the energy over a handgun.
Ohhh yes there is.
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Old 08-15-2012, 18:04   #28
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I hate to disagree, but I will anyway. Since we all know that placement is an important part of the equation there isn't much difference between a well placed round from any of several handgun/load combinations, and a rifle round at indoor ranges and there is also very little difference between a badly placed round with either. a rifle indoors will not turn a bad shot into a good one nor will it make the bad guy any "deader" with a good shot. A rifle or appropriately, a carbine just makes the placement more precise, in the right hands.

The long gun extends the range at which you can effectively apply the energy over a handgun.
If this is the case, why does every SWAT team/military unit use rifles to clear buildings instead of pistols? A rifle round to the chest is more devastating than a pistol round to the chest to to the greater hydrostatic shock. I will agree that a CNS shot is a CNS shot regardless of round used but a rifle does a better job everywhere else. Even in the case of a poor shot, a rifle round to the leg is more devastating than a pistol round to the leg.
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Old 08-15-2012, 18:14   #29
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If this is the case, why does every SWAT team/military unit use rifles to clear buildings instead of pistols? A rifle round to the chest is more devastating than a pistol round to the chest to to the greater hydrostatic shock. I will agree that a CNS shot is a CNS shot regardless of round used but a rifle does a better job everywhere else. Even in the case of a poor shot, a rifle round to the leg is more devastating than a pistol round to the leg.

Because, AS I SAID,

" A rifle or appropriately, a carbine just makes the placement more precise, in the right hands."

It is easier to shoot a shoulder arm well, but there are a number of handgun rounds that will yeild the desired result at close quarters with identical placement.
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Old 08-15-2012, 18:18   #30
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Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
Because, AS I SAID,

" A rifle or appropriately, a carbine just makes the placement more precise, in the right hands."

It is easier to shoot a shoulder arm well, but there are a number of handgun rounds that will yeild the desired result at close quarters with identical placement.
So let me get this straight, according to you, a 9mm to the chest does just as much damage as a 5.56 to the chest in CQB/HD distances. Is that what you are trying to say? If so, you are completely wrong.
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Old 08-15-2012, 21:13   #31
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Because, AS I SAID,

" A rifle or appropriately, a carbine just makes the placement more precise, in the right hands."

It is easier to shoot a shoulder arm well, but there are a number of handgun rounds that will yeild the desired result at close quarters with identical placement.
Except that many teams have traded MP5s for ARs. No change to accuracy or portability, but a significant step up in power from the 9/40 to the 5.56.
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Old 08-15-2012, 21:58   #32
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So let me get this straight, according to you, a 9mm to the chest does just as much damage as a 5.56 to the chest in CQB/HD distances. Is that what you are trying to say? If so, you are completely wrong.

No, you don't have it "straight" where did I mention the 9mm? C'mon, show me. YOU are bringing the 9mm into the conversation not me. Why are you trying to stick me with the 9mm?

Oh, and to the other poster who mentioned the swith from MP-5s to ,223s, I do believe that has to do with the penetration/over penetration characteristics as much as anything, or don't you read the threads about how the 9mm over penetrates more than the .223?

The charge was put forth that the purpose of the rifle was "more stopping power than a handgun at interior distances"

I simply disagree with that statement.
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Old 08-15-2012, 21:59   #33
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No, you don't have it "straight" where did I mention the 9mm? C'mon, show me. YOU are bringing the 9mm into the conversation not me. Why are you trying to stick me with the 9mm?
Then perhaps you need to specify exactly what you are referring to with this statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
I hate to disagree, but I will anyway. Since we all know that placement is an important part of the equation there isn't much difference between a well placed round from any of several handgun/load combinations, and a rifle round at indoor ranges and there is also very little difference between a badly placed round with either. a rifle indoors will not turn a bad shot into a good one nor will it make the bad guy any "deader" with a good shot. A rifle or appropriately, a carbine just makes the placement more precise, in the right hands.

The long gun extends the range at which you can effectively apply the energy over a handgun.
I am quite interested in seeing what handgun/load combinations you believe are as effective as a rifle.
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Old 08-15-2012, 22:19   #34
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Then perhaps you need to specify exactly what you are referring to with this statement:



I am quite interested in seeing what handgun/load combinations you believe are as effective as a rifle.

Well since I am dealing with a blanket statement, I will even give the benefit of the doubt to the rifle side and use the .223 as a "rifle baseline."

I have seen the effects of a .223 from a rifle and a .44 mag from a pistol on 100+# deer @ under 50 yds. from that I would say the .44 is swifter on the traditional heart/lung shot.

I will however invite you to open your minds, ad look at the statement I was responding to,

"Uh no, the main advantage of a rifle over a pistol is stopping power."

Now tell me how, my statement,

"I hate to disagree, but I will anyway. Since we all know that placement is an important part of the equation there isn't much difference between a well placed round from any of several handgun/load combinations, and a rifle round at indoor ranges and there is also very little difference between a badly placed round with either. a rifle indoors will not turn a bad shot into a good one nor will it make the bad guy any "deader" with a good shot. A rifle or appropriately, a carbine just makes the placement more precise, in the right hands."



is incorrect?

Remember look at both statements without bringing your own assumptions in to it.
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Old 08-15-2012, 22:33   #35
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Well since I am dealing with a blanket statement, I will even give the benefit of the doubt to the rifle side and use the .223 as a "rifle baseline."

I have seen the effects of a .223 from a rifle and a .44 mag from a pistol on 100+# deer @ under 50 yds. from that I would say the .44 is swifter on the traditional heart/lung shot.

I will however invite you to open your minds, ad look at the statement I was responding to,

"Uh no, the main advantage of a rifle over a pistol is stopping power."

Now tell me how, my statement,

"I hate to disagree, but I will anyway. Since we all know that placement is an important part of the equation there isn't much difference between a well placed round from any of several handgun/load combinations, and a rifle round at indoor ranges and there is also very little difference between a badly placed round with either. a rifle indoors will not turn a bad shot into a good one nor will it make the bad guy any "deader" with a good shot. A rifle or appropriately, a carbine just makes the placement more precise, in the right hands."



is incorrect?

Remember look at both statements without bringing your own assumptions in to it.
Because the part in bold is fundamental to the entirety of what you are saying and is incorrect.

PS: You have a comment about the bad buy being any "deader". Death/killing has absolutely nothing to do with this. The idea is to make the threat cease being a threat as quickly as possible. The fact that you seem to be making judgments based upon killing, alone, indicates that you are going about this the wrong way.
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Old 08-15-2012, 23:32   #36
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Because the part in bold is fundamental to the entirety of what you are saying and is incorrect.

PS: You have a comment about the bad buy being any "deader". Death/killing has absolutely nothing to do with this. The idea is to make the threat cease being a threat as quickly as possible. The fact that you seem to be making judgments based upon killing, alone, indicates that you are going about this the wrong way.
Well again, my hunting experiences have shown my that a .223 doesn't stop movement any faster than a .44 magnum. Of course my experiences are of the "terminal" variety.

If it makes you feel better though I could sustitute Incapacitate for dead.


I can make the case that , the .41 mag has a record of one shot stops on the street that rivals the .223.

While I don't use the load, it would be very hard to prove that a COM hit with a .223 would have any greater effect than some of the light bullet high velocity 10mm or similar .41 mag load.



And, in as much as the debates is subjective I can still make the claim that the greatest benefit is increased accuracy in placement. How do you objectively prove that is wrong?
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Old 08-16-2012, 07:14   #37
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Geez....

If nothing else, the latest drift is a perfect example of why technical choices shouldn't be made by non-technicians.
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Old 08-16-2012, 07:30   #38
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Well again, my hunting experiences have shown my that a .223 doesn't stop movement any faster than a .44 magnum. Of course my experiences are of the "terminal" variety.

If it makes you feel better though I could sustitute Incapacitate for dead.


I can make the case that , the .41 mag has a record of one shot stops on the street that rivals the .223.

While I don't use the load, it would be very hard to prove that a COM hit with a .223 would have any greater effect than some of the light bullet high velocity 10mm or similar .41 mag load.



And, in as much as the debates is subjective I can still make the claim that the greatest benefit is increased accuracy in placement. How do you objectively prove that is wrong?
I don't think your idea of an HD handgun(.44/.41 mag) is the same as most people's(9,40,45,38,357,10mm).
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Old 08-16-2012, 17:28   #39
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Old 09-01-2012, 18:44   #40
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Originally Posted by APERS View Post
This thread really makes me stop and think. I could see where 5.56 could be a good thing(bad guy shooting at me from around a doorway for example).. we have a newer house and 55gr FMJ would penetrate one wall like it wasnt there. And still have enough energy to deal with the bag guy on the other side. And would the home invader(s) take any cover they may find; fridge, freezer or whatever? As for the OP, my go to gun is my 870, 21"bbl full choke. 100% reliable always. May be time to save up for a .357 or .44magnum lever action.
On what evidence do you base this assumption? I have seen empirical evidence that a .223 55gr FMJ would fragment after passing through a single layer of drywall, and .223 V-max bullets fragment violently when they hit drywall. The .223 bullet has a lot of speed but not a lot of momentum, so it will be significantly slowed and/or deflected by the first object it hits. Pistol rounds go straight through interior walls like the walls aren't even there, while retaining enough momentum to be effective on the other side of the wall, as has been mentioned before. The same cannot be said for a .223 round, even though (because) it is going 3 times as fast.
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