GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-15-2012, 17:48   #26
countrygun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 17,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
Uh no, the main advantage of a rifle over a pistol is stopping power.

I hate to disagree, but I will anyway. Since we all know that placement is an important part of the equation there isn't much difference between a well placed round from any of several handgun/load combinations, and a rifle round at indoor ranges and there is also very little difference between a badly placed round with either. a rifle indoors will not turn a bad shot into a good one nor will it make the bad guy any "deader" with a good shot. A rifle or appropriately, a carbine just makes the placement more precise, in the right hands.

The long gun extends the range at which you can effectively apply the energy over a handgun.
countrygun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2012, 18:02   #27
Warp
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
 
Warp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NE of Atlanta
Posts: 29,847
Quote:
Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
I hate to disagree, but I will anyway. Since we all know that placement is an important part of the equation there isn't much difference between a well placed round from any of several handgun/load combinations, and a rifle round at indoor ranges and there is also very little difference between a badly placed round with either. a rifle indoors will not turn a bad shot into a good one nor will it make the bad guy any "deader" with a good shot. A rifle or appropriately, a carbine just makes the placement more precise, in the right hands.

The long gun extends the range at which you can effectively apply the energy over a handgun.
Ohhh yes there is.
__________________
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

I HIGHLY recommend Google Chrome and Adblock to all world wide web users. (I would have left GT a long time ago without these extensions!)

Last edited by Warp; 08-15-2012 at 18:03..
Warp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2012, 18:04   #28
Travclem
Lifetime Membership
Badass Member
 
Travclem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Lubbock, TX
Posts: 6,443
Quote:
Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
I hate to disagree, but I will anyway. Since we all know that placement is an important part of the equation there isn't much difference between a well placed round from any of several handgun/load combinations, and a rifle round at indoor ranges and there is also very little difference between a badly placed round with either. a rifle indoors will not turn a bad shot into a good one nor will it make the bad guy any "deader" with a good shot. A rifle or appropriately, a carbine just makes the placement more precise, in the right hands.

The long gun extends the range at which you can effectively apply the energy over a handgun.
If this is the case, why does every SWAT team/military unit use rifles to clear buildings instead of pistols? A rifle round to the chest is more devastating than a pistol round to the chest to to the greater hydrostatic shock. I will agree that a CNS shot is a CNS shot regardless of round used but a rifle does a better job everywhere else. Even in the case of a poor shot, a rifle round to the leg is more devastating than a pistol round to the leg.
__________________
Sent from a payphone in a whorehouse in Mexico.
__________________

Last edited by Travclem; 08-15-2012 at 18:06..
Travclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2012, 18:14   #29
countrygun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 17,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travclem View Post
If this is the case, why does every SWAT team/military unit use rifles to clear buildings instead of pistols? A rifle round to the chest is more devastating than a pistol round to the chest to to the greater hydrostatic shock. I will agree that a CNS shot is a CNS shot regardless of round used but a rifle does a better job everywhere else. Even in the case of a poor shot, a rifle round to the leg is more devastating than a pistol round to the leg.

Because, AS I SAID,

" A rifle or appropriately, a carbine just makes the placement more precise, in the right hands."

It is easier to shoot a shoulder arm well, but there are a number of handgun rounds that will yeild the desired result at close quarters with identical placement.
countrygun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2012, 18:18   #30
Travclem
Lifetime Membership
Badass Member
 
Travclem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Lubbock, TX
Posts: 6,443
Quote:
Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
Because, AS I SAID,

" A rifle or appropriately, a carbine just makes the placement more precise, in the right hands."

It is easier to shoot a shoulder arm well, but there are a number of handgun rounds that will yeild the desired result at close quarters with identical placement.
So let me get this straight, according to you, a 9mm to the chest does just as much damage as a 5.56 to the chest in CQB/HD distances. Is that what you are trying to say? If so, you are completely wrong.
__________________
Sent from a payphone in a whorehouse in Mexico.
__________________

Last edited by Travclem; 08-15-2012 at 18:18..
Travclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2012, 21:13   #31
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 20,768
Quote:
Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
Because, AS I SAID,

" A rifle or appropriately, a carbine just makes the placement more precise, in the right hands."

It is easier to shoot a shoulder arm well, but there are a number of handgun rounds that will yeild the desired result at close quarters with identical placement.
Except that many teams have traded MP5s for ARs. No change to accuracy or portability, but a significant step up in power from the 9/40 to the 5.56.
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2012, 21:58   #32
countrygun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 17,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travclem View Post
So let me get this straight, according to you, a 9mm to the chest does just as much damage as a 5.56 to the chest in CQB/HD distances. Is that what you are trying to say? If so, you are completely wrong.

No, you don't have it "straight" where did I mention the 9mm? C'mon, show me. YOU are bringing the 9mm into the conversation not me. Why are you trying to stick me with the 9mm?

Oh, and to the other poster who mentioned the swith from MP-5s to ,223s, I do believe that has to do with the penetration/over penetration characteristics as much as anything, or don't you read the threads about how the 9mm over penetrates more than the .223?

The charge was put forth that the purpose of the rifle was "more stopping power than a handgun at interior distances"

I simply disagree with that statement.
countrygun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2012, 21:59   #33
Warp
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
 
Warp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NE of Atlanta
Posts: 29,847
Quote:
Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
No, you don't have it "straight" where did I mention the 9mm? C'mon, show me. YOU are bringing the 9mm into the conversation not me. Why are you trying to stick me with the 9mm?
Then perhaps you need to specify exactly what you are referring to with this statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
I hate to disagree, but I will anyway. Since we all know that placement is an important part of the equation there isn't much difference between a well placed round from any of several handgun/load combinations, and a rifle round at indoor ranges and there is also very little difference between a badly placed round with either. a rifle indoors will not turn a bad shot into a good one nor will it make the bad guy any "deader" with a good shot. A rifle or appropriately, a carbine just makes the placement more precise, in the right hands.

The long gun extends the range at which you can effectively apply the energy over a handgun.
I am quite interested in seeing what handgun/load combinations you believe are as effective as a rifle.
__________________
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

I HIGHLY recommend Google Chrome and Adblock to all world wide web users. (I would have left GT a long time ago without these extensions!)

Last edited by Warp; 08-15-2012 at 22:01..
Warp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2012, 22:19   #34
countrygun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 17,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Then perhaps you need to specify exactly what you are referring to with this statement:



I am quite interested in seeing what handgun/load combinations you believe are as effective as a rifle.

Well since I am dealing with a blanket statement, I will even give the benefit of the doubt to the rifle side and use the .223 as a "rifle baseline."

I have seen the effects of a .223 from a rifle and a .44 mag from a pistol on 100+# deer @ under 50 yds. from that I would say the .44 is swifter on the traditional heart/lung shot.

I will however invite you to open your minds, ad look at the statement I was responding to,

"Uh no, the main advantage of a rifle over a pistol is stopping power."

Now tell me how, my statement,

"I hate to disagree, but I will anyway. Since we all know that placement is an important part of the equation there isn't much difference between a well placed round from any of several handgun/load combinations, and a rifle round at indoor ranges and there is also very little difference between a badly placed round with either. a rifle indoors will not turn a bad shot into a good one nor will it make the bad guy any "deader" with a good shot. A rifle or appropriately, a carbine just makes the placement more precise, in the right hands."



is incorrect?

Remember look at both statements without bringing your own assumptions in to it.
countrygun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2012, 22:33   #35
Warp
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
 
Warp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NE of Atlanta
Posts: 29,847
Quote:
Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
Well since I am dealing with a blanket statement, I will even give the benefit of the doubt to the rifle side and use the .223 as a "rifle baseline."

I have seen the effects of a .223 from a rifle and a .44 mag from a pistol on 100+# deer @ under 50 yds. from that I would say the .44 is swifter on the traditional heart/lung shot.

I will however invite you to open your minds, ad look at the statement I was responding to,

"Uh no, the main advantage of a rifle over a pistol is stopping power."

Now tell me how, my statement,

"I hate to disagree, but I will anyway. Since we all know that placement is an important part of the equation there isn't much difference between a well placed round from any of several handgun/load combinations, and a rifle round at indoor ranges and there is also very little difference between a badly placed round with either. a rifle indoors will not turn a bad shot into a good one nor will it make the bad guy any "deader" with a good shot. A rifle or appropriately, a carbine just makes the placement more precise, in the right hands."



is incorrect?

Remember look at both statements without bringing your own assumptions in to it.
Because the part in bold is fundamental to the entirety of what you are saying and is incorrect.

PS: You have a comment about the bad buy being any "deader". Death/killing has absolutely nothing to do with this. The idea is to make the threat cease being a threat as quickly as possible. The fact that you seem to be making judgments based upon killing, alone, indicates that you are going about this the wrong way.
__________________
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

I HIGHLY recommend Google Chrome and Adblock to all world wide web users. (I would have left GT a long time ago without these extensions!)
Warp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2012, 23:32   #36
countrygun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 17,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Because the part in bold is fundamental to the entirety of what you are saying and is incorrect.

PS: You have a comment about the bad buy being any "deader". Death/killing has absolutely nothing to do with this. The idea is to make the threat cease being a threat as quickly as possible. The fact that you seem to be making judgments based upon killing, alone, indicates that you are going about this the wrong way.
Well again, my hunting experiences have shown my that a .223 doesn't stop movement any faster than a .44 magnum. Of course my experiences are of the "terminal" variety.

If it makes you feel better though I could sustitute Incapacitate for dead.


I can make the case that , the .41 mag has a record of one shot stops on the street that rivals the .223.

While I don't use the load, it would be very hard to prove that a COM hit with a .223 would have any greater effect than some of the light bullet high velocity 10mm or similar .41 mag load.



And, in as much as the debates is subjective I can still make the claim that the greatest benefit is increased accuracy in placement. How do you objectively prove that is wrong?
countrygun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2012, 07:14   #37
Sam Spade
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
Sam Spade's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 20,768
Geez....

If nothing else, the latest drift is a perfect example of why technical choices shouldn't be made by non-technicians.
__________________
"To spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary." Pournelle
Sam Spade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2012, 07:30   #38
Travclem
Lifetime Membership
Badass Member
 
Travclem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Lubbock, TX
Posts: 6,443
Quote:
Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
Well again, my hunting experiences have shown my that a .223 doesn't stop movement any faster than a .44 magnum. Of course my experiences are of the "terminal" variety.

If it makes you feel better though I could sustitute Incapacitate for dead.


I can make the case that , the .41 mag has a record of one shot stops on the street that rivals the .223.

While I don't use the load, it would be very hard to prove that a COM hit with a .223 would have any greater effect than some of the light bullet high velocity 10mm or similar .41 mag load.



And, in as much as the debates is subjective I can still make the claim that the greatest benefit is increased accuracy in placement. How do you objectively prove that is wrong?
I don't think your idea of an HD handgun(.44/.41 mag) is the same as most people's(9,40,45,38,357,10mm).
__________________
Sent from a payphone in a whorehouse in Mexico.
__________________
Travclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2012, 17:28   #39
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 14,392
Deleted

Last edited by cowboy1964; 08-16-2012 at 17:30..
cowboy1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2012, 18:44   #40
Ballisticism
Spray & Pray
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by APERS View Post
This thread really makes me stop and think. I could see where 5.56 could be a good thing(bad guy shooting at me from around a doorway for example).. we have a newer house and 55gr FMJ would penetrate one wall like it wasnt there. And still have enough energy to deal with the bag guy on the other side. And would the home invader(s) take any cover they may find; fridge, freezer or whatever? As for the OP, my go to gun is my 870, 21"bbl full choke. 100% reliable always. May be time to save up for a .357 or .44magnum lever action.
On what evidence do you base this assumption? I have seen empirical evidence that a .223 55gr FMJ would fragment after passing through a single layer of drywall, and .223 V-max bullets fragment violently when they hit drywall. The .223 bullet has a lot of speed but not a lot of momentum, so it will be significantly slowed and/or deflected by the first object it hits. Pistol rounds go straight through interior walls like the walls aren't even there, while retaining enough momentum to be effective on the other side of the wall, as has been mentioned before. The same cannot be said for a .223 round, even though (because) it is going 3 times as fast.
Ballisticism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 15:26   #41
glock_collector
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 851
the 50 bmg covers the 1000 yrd perimeter around my house, the Ar with opposing mags will do the 100 yrd and less work, shotgun down the stairway as they enter and the handguns finish at room length distances. Quit yer squabbling and get some range time!!
glock_collector is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 19:18   #42
JuneyBooney
Senior Member
 
JuneyBooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 15,384
If you are being invaded and kill them with a machine gun it is their own darned fault. In your own home is different than on the street.
JuneyBooney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2012, 00:53   #43
GermanyBound
One Bad Monkey
 
GermanyBound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: South Carolina/Louisiana/Afghan
Posts: 511
Send a message via AIM to GermanyBound Send a message via Yahoo to GermanyBound
Quote:
Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
Well since I am dealing with a blanket statement, I will even give the benefit of the doubt to the rifle side and use the .223 as a "rifle baseline."

I have seen the effects of a .223 from a rifle and a .44 mag from a pistol on 100+# deer @ under 50 yds. from that I would say the .44 is swifter on the traditional heart/lung shot.

I will however invite you to open your minds, ad look at the statement I was responding to,

"Uh no, the main advantage of a rifle over a pistol is stopping power."

Now tell me how, my statement,

"I hate to disagree, but I will anyway. Since we all know that placement is an important part of the equation there isn't much difference between a well placed round from any of several handgun/load combinations, and a rifle round at indoor ranges and there is also very little difference between a badly placed round with either. a rifle indoors will not turn a bad shot into a good one nor will it make the bad guy any "deader" with a good shot. A rifle or appropriately, a carbine just makes the placement more precise, in the right hands."



is incorrect?

Remember look at both statements without bringing your own assumptions in to it.
People aren't deer. Have you ever shot someone at room distance with a carbine? Trust me, the carbine does a hell of a lot more damage than a pistol at close range.
__________________
Originally Posted by TimP
I'm a fan of face-shooting. Man or beast, if you shoot it in the face, it WILL leave you alone.
GermanyBound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2012, 04:25   #44
GlockMonk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
Posts: 422
Use what you're most comfortable, and proficient with. In my case, it would be a handgun, as that's what I'm most proficient with.

GlockMonk
GlockMonk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2012, 23:38   #45
mick travis
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 67
I would suggest you fire many rounds of those softpoints through your M-1 Carbine with the mags you intend to use before trusting it.

Many M-1 Carbines are not reliable with anything other than FMJ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHaze View Post
I think the M1 you have right now is perfectly suited to home defense. Just opt for one of the JSP loads rather than the standard FMJ of course.
Tactics and Training

I'm all for shooting more with something you have that will get the job done just as well as a new gun, over buying a new gun. Besides, it's cheaper. And I'm poor.
There are a number of manufactures that carry JSP ammo for the .30 Carbine.
Tactics and Training
Tactics and Training
mick travis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2012, 20:25   #46
roberev
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 42
.300 blackout AR pistol with 10" barrel, equipped with EOTech, light, laser, and using Hornady 300 Whisper SAAMI-spec ammo with 110gr VMax bullet for in-house defense.
roberev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2012, 20:50   #47
mj9mm
Senior Member
 
mj9mm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: WI, looking better since Walker
Posts: 2,544
Quote:
Originally Posted by roberev View Post
.300 blackout AR pistol with 10" barrel, equipped with EOTech, light, laser, and using Hornady 300 Whisper SAAMI-spec ammo with 110gr VMax bullet for in-house defense.
that not only stops an intruder, but thread arguments too
mj9mm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2012, 20:55   #48
Dogbite
DNT TREAD ON ME
 
Dogbite's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Atlanta.
Posts: 5,083
I go with a 12 ga shotgun indoors, it is truly devastating. 00 buck, #4 buck, whatever.
I have one thing to add to the 5.56 talk indoors. I have personally seen 5.56 ball go through 3 walls in a structure, one had heavy hardwood board on it. I am not saying I would never use a rifle indoors, just saying it does penetrate.
__________________
Nemo me impune lacessit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9IfHDi-2EA
Dogbite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2012, 05:55   #49
Travclem
Lifetime Membership
Badass Member
 
Travclem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Lubbock, TX
Posts: 6,443
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbite View Post
i go with a 12 ga shotgun indoors, it is truly devastating. 00 buck, #4 buck, whatever.
I have one thing to add to the 5.56 talk indoors. I have personally seen 5.56 ball go through 3 walls in a structure, one had heavy hardwood board on it. I am not saying i would never use a rifle indoors, just saying it does penetrate.
m855?
__________________
Sent from a payphone in a whorehouse in Mexico.
__________________
Travclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 02:49   #50
JuneyBooney
Senior Member
 
JuneyBooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 15,384
I would recommend the FN 5.7 with some darn good ear plugs. If it is an invasion shoot them all. A SSAR 15 AR would be good too but the house will be quite messy. I alos recommend some dogs for alarm purposes...
JuneyBooney is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:57.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,031
343 Members
688 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42