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Old 07-19-2012, 09:14   #121
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Originally Posted by SARDG View Post
Personally, I am NOT a nodder as I don't like bobbing my head around after I'm set. And the rules and RO Guides say "do not tell the shooter to nod...".
I just looked at The Glock Report ("the rules"), and I don't find the word NOD in there anywhere. So the statement of yours I bolded is far from correct. Perhaps the GSSF RO Guides, but that's not anything (as a shooter) I've ever bothered to read as they don't pertain to my actions as a shooter. I don't even remember seeing them anywhere either, except maybe you posted them once/twice here. Regardless... not being an RO, I imagine most competitors wouldn't bother with reading them as well.

Also, The Glock Report does not even (clearly) explain to a shooter what commands the R.O. will even give. The only place the word "Standby" is mentioned, is in the Shooter Lingo section. So only if you thoroughly read that section will you see references to "Ready?" and "Standby", and they're not even discussed together, as in "Here's how you will be instructed to shoot". Both IDPA and USPSA books do a better job of explaining the commands the R.O. will supply during the start phase of a string. Section 130 (Stage Procedures) simply says "Listen to the commands the R.O. gives" and that's it. That section could certainly be written better, to describe the commands and the sequence they will be given.

Anyway, in that post of mine I was comparing the difference between GSSF and what I shoot way more often... USPSA. I shoot at most 5 GSSFs per year, whereas I shoot 1-3 USPS matches a month. So that is where my comfort zone comes from, how I am run in those matches.

For me... I try to have GSSF fit my preferred style of shooting, and that's pretty much worked so far. That might seem selfish (ignoring what the rules *say* versus what I prefer), but in my mind, the competitions are held FOR THE SHOOTERS, and not so an R.O. can R.O. Therefore I think some flexibility is acceptable.
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Old 07-19-2012, 09:41   #122
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I have never been an RO at a GSSF match as I usually don't have the time to commit to doing it, and I want one facet of my life where I am more Indian than chief. I am a certified SO for IDPA and have worked both club and championship level matches.

"shooter ready" is a question and not a statement. The RO/SO should not continue until the shooter has indicated ready be it a nod or verbally.
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Old 07-19-2012, 10:02   #123
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I have never been an RO at a GSSF match as I usually don't have the time to commit to doing it, and I want one facet of my life where I am more Indian than chief. I am a certified SO for IDPA and have worked both club and championship level matches.

"shooter ready" is a question and not a statement. The RO/SO should not continue until the shooter has indicated ready be it a nod or verbally.
Not true for GSSF, though allowed and used in IDPA. (I'm an IDPA SO as well. )
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Old 07-19-2012, 10:08   #124
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I have never been an RO at a GSSF match as I usually don't have the time to commit to doing it, and I want one facet of my life where I am more Indian than chief. I am a certified SO for IDPA and have worked both club and championship level matches.

"shooter ready" is a question and not a statement. The RO/SO should not continue until the shooter has indicated ready be it a nod or verbally.
The only problem I have, is the bolded statement. That does not appear in any rulebook that I see. At least, that the shooter should nod or verbally assent to the question.

In the IDPA book, it is "Shooter Ready". It is a question, but nowhere in the IDPA rules do I see where the shooter is actually instructed how he must respond (if at all) to that question. Nothing about "if not ready what the shooter does", or "if ready, nod or assent verbally".

In the USPSA book it is 8.3.2. "are you Ready?", the lack of any negative response indicates readiness, and if NOT ready the shooter is to say "not ready". That is a the total opposite from what you stated. NOT SAYING ANYTHING would mean you're ready. But at least the USPSA rule book makes it very clear how the shooter should react to the question. The IDPA and GSSF rule books do neither.


They might have taught you that in your R.O. class, but it is not verified/confirmed in any rule book to be run that way.

The simple inconsistencies there is why it is done so many different ways. Which is why.... I want to indicate to the R.O. that I'm ready and THEN he can start his commands.

Going back to the IDPA rule book... you can certainly say, "It's common sense that you should show assent via a nod or verbal statement you are ready". My rebuttal is that the USPSA rule book doesn't treat the same question in that way, in fact the direct opposite. Therefore, "it's not common sense". Nor specifically spelled out in the rule book issues to the competitors. Therefore, your process and assumptions therein are flawed.
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Old 07-19-2012, 10:34   #125
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The only problem I have, is the bolded statement. That does not appear in any rulebook that I see. At least, that the shooter should nod or verbally assent to the question.

In the IDPA book, it is "Shooter Ready". It is a question, but nowhere in the IDPA rules do I see where the shooter is actually instructed how he must respond (if at all) to that question. Nothing about "if not ready what the shooter does", or "if ready, nod or assent verbally"...
It's in the IDPA SO Syllabus.

Shooter Ready: Question asked by SO to make sure the shooter is ready to engage the CoF.
At this point, if you notice that the shooter has forgotten something important (such as loading the gun), remind the shooter. The shooter may have questions at this point. If he does, be patient with him. When the shooter indicates he is ready (normally by nodding his head);
Standby: Command given to the shooter to freeze in the start position before the audible start signal...

It's somewhat like GSSF where ROs must gather correct procedures from the rule book, the RO Guides, the Shooter's Lingo, the RO Notes of each stage, and from decisions made by GSSF Officials.

Last edited by SARDG; 07-19-2012 at 10:35..
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Old 07-19-2012, 11:33   #126
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Originally Posted by SARDG View Post
It's in the IDPA SO Syllabus.

[edited....]

It's somewhat like GSSF where ROs must gather correct procedures from the rule book, the RO Guides, the Shooter's Lingo, the RO Notes of each stage, and from decisions made by GSSF Officials
.
With both IDPA and GSSF, one would think an obligation of the shooter would be in the rule book the shooter is given. That is the IDPA rule book as on their site, and the Glock Report in the case of GSSF. Not in a book that is issued to ROs or SOs.

Shame on them both for contributing towards non-clarity.
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Old 07-19-2012, 11:40   #127
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With both IDPA and GSSF, one would think an obligation of the shooter would be in the rule book the shooter is given. That is the IDPA rule book as on their site, and the Glock Report in the case of GSSF. Not in a book that is issued to ROs or SOs.

Shame on them both for contributing towards non-clarity.
Agree... but who reads the rules anyway?

As for range commands in general, IDPA is the closest thing to GSSF that I've found - and yet, most GSSF Officials are heavily vested in USPSA.
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Old 07-19-2012, 11:52   #128
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I personally find the bickering about specific verbage of range commands amusing (not here of course, just at IDPA ).

Legacy and I shoot monthly IDPA and our squad is pretty much the same group of guys every month. Occasionally, a member of the local organization of USPSA Nazis will arrive late (thus making him miss his spot on his regular squad) and shoot with us. These guys usually get pretty tweaked if you don't "say it right" so we make a practice of using nearly everything BUT the "proper" command to see if we can make their heads explode.

Unless we are talking about a truly competitive, championship level match I honestly don't care if you say "load & make ready" or "gas it up" or "make it hot". Who cares? You know what you mean. I know what you mean. The guys standing behind us with pasters at the ready know what you mean.

The exact verbage doesn't compromise the shooter's understanding of the stage nor does it compromise the shooter's understanding of the range command. Most of all, it doesn't compromise safety.

WRT "shooter ready" ... I too believe that's a question and not a statement. If it's a question then the ROs response of "standby" should not occur until he/she receives a response. If it was a statement then what prescribes how long the RO waits before moving to "standby"? Does he wait 3 seconds? Does he wait 3 minutes? Does he change it up from one shooter to the next?

I think the point of wether or not "shooter ready" is a question or a statement is more about courtesy than rules. As a courtesy to the shooter the RO should wait for a response. Is it in the rules? Don't know, don't care. I'd afford the RO the same courtesy.
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Old 07-19-2012, 12:08   #129
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Originally Posted by VOLGRAD View Post
I personally find the bickering about specific verbage of range commands amusing (not here of course, just at IDPA ).

Legacy and I shoot monthly IDPA and our squad is pretty much the same group of guys every month. Occasionally, a member of the local organization of USPSA Nazis will arrive late (thus making him miss his spot on his regular squad) and shoot with us. These guys usually get pretty tweaked if you don't "say it right" so we make a practice of using nearly everything BUT the "proper" command to see if we can make their heads explode.

Unless we are talking about a truly competitive, championship level match I honestly don't care if you say "load & make ready" or "gas it up" or "make it hot". Who cares? You know what you mean. I know what you mean. The guys standing behind us with pasters at the ready know what you mean.

The exact verbage doesn't compromise the shooter's understanding of the stage nor does it compromise the shooter's understanding of the range command. Most of all, it doesn't compromise safety.

WRT "shooter ready" ... I too believe that's a question and not a statement. If it's a question then the ROs response of "standby" should not occur until he/she receives a response. If it was a statement then what prescribes how long the RO waits before moving to "standby"? Does he wait 3 seconds? Does he wait 3 minutes? Does he change it up from one shooter to the next?

I think the point of wether or not "shooter ready" is a question or a statement is more about courtesy than rules. As a courtesy to the shooter the RO should wait for a response. Is it in the rules? Don't know, don't care. I'd afford the RO the same courtesy.
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Old 07-19-2012, 12:12   #130
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...WRT "shooter ready" ... I too believe that's a question and not a statement. If it's a question then the ROs response of "standby" should not occur until he/she receives a response. If it was a statement then what prescribes how long the RO waits before moving to "standby"? Does he wait 3 seconds? Does he wait 3 minutes? Does he change it up from one shooter to the next?

I think the point of wether or not "shooter ready" is a question or a statement is more about courtesy than rules. As a courtesy to the shooter the RO should wait for a response. Is it in the rules? Don't know, don't care. I'd afford the RO the same courtesy.
It is a question - a rhetorical question not requiring a direct answer. (In GSSF and apparently USPSA.)

Left to my own devices, I follow the GSSF rules and RO Guides and don't wait for a response. NOW... if the shooter comes to the line and tells me he will nod or otherwise indicate 'ready', I will oblige.

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Old 07-19-2012, 12:16   #131
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SAFETY first...but as there are many different clubs, shooters and courses of fire, you can expect a little variation.

In my opinion, the shooter should know, and the RO should reinforce, not to handle a weapon unless told they can and not to break the safety plane.

Other than that, let me know how you are going to call commands and I will do it that way. I don't need to be a pain in the ass, nor does the RO because "you ain't doin' it right!"ETA as long as we are safe and not cheating.

Anyone that has shot a GSSF match should know
1- dry sight picture (optional)
2- load and make ready
3- shooter ready...beep
4- Bang (between 6 and 11 times)
5- repeat 2-4 as required by CoF
6- Bag or Holster
7- Score and Go
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Old 07-19-2012, 12:20   #132
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Darn Bama;

You make that so simple even "Ron White" could follow it.

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Old 07-19-2012, 12:21   #133
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Originally Posted by BamaTrooper View Post
SAFETY first...

Anyone that has shot a GSSF match should know
1- dry sight picture (optional)
2- load and make ready
3- shooter ready...beep
4- Bang (between 6 and 11 times)
5- repeat 2-4 as required by CoF
6- Bag or Holster
7- Score and Go
They should also know the 'commands':
8- Finger
9- Muzzle
10- Stop

ETA: Each of those last 3 have a true meaning in the scheme of things.

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Old 07-19-2012, 12:24   #134
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Whew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Shooter ready? Or Not!

This needs to be its own thread......
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Old 07-19-2012, 12:25   #135
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Originally Posted by BamaTrooper View Post
Anyone that has shot a GSSF match should know
1- dry sight picture (optional)
2- load and make ready
3- shooter ready...beep
4- Bang (between 6 and 11 times)
5- repeat 2-4 as required by CoF
6- Bag or Holster
7- Score and Go
You forgot STANDBY!
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Old 07-19-2012, 12:26   #136
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I think I have a Headache.

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Old 07-19-2012, 12:26   #137
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Whew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Shooter ready? Or Not!

This needs to be its own thread......
Agreed...let's move the RO command issue to another thread.
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Old 07-19-2012, 12:28   #138
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It is a question - a rhetorical question not requiring a direct answer. (In GSSF and apparently USPSA.)

Left to my own devices, I follow the GSSF rules and RO Guides and don't wait for a response. NOW... if the shooter comes to the line and tells me he will nod or otherwise indicate 'ready', I will oblige.
So what happens when you don't get a response and proceed to "standby" or whatever the correct next verbage is but the shooter isn't ready? Suppose you give the standby command, then hit the button and the buzzer goes off. The shooter is taken off guard because he never indicated he was ready.

Does he get to start over? Suppose the buzzer goes off and he freaks and starts blasting. At the end of the string he says, "M'am I wasn't ready. I never said I was. I know I shouldn't have shot that string if I wasn't ready but I sort of freaked out when the buzzer went off."

Does he get a re-shoot? It's not like he is asking for one because he shot poorly. He's asking for a re-shoot because he (as many of us do) thinks "shooter ready" is a question he should answer before hearing "standby" and "BEEP". Not everyone even knows the exact "verbage" and clearly many of us with a good bit of experience disagree on both the vergabe and how it's to be delivered and received.

I have had it happen to me a few times at GSSF matches. I suspect it happens because the RO is fatigued by going through the same motions over and over a million times for 2-3 days in a row. I get that. However, I don't think it's fair to the shooters to push them along. You might have been there for 10 hours for 2 days in a row but this guy/gal might be there for their first match. They are only on the line for 10 strings of fire (per division, of course) and are trying to make the most of it and perform at their peak. They don't need to be pushed or surprised just because they don't know how the RO interprets the question (rhetorical vs real).

I recall when the buzzer went off unexpectedly in a GSSF match I paused for a good second thinking, "WTF just happened? Was that timer for me?" I recall looking at the RO and getting a, "Hey dumb@$$ start shooting", look in return. So, I start shooting (poorly I might add due to trying to make up for lost time). I don't recall asking for a re-shoot but do recall having to tell the same RO after EACH string, "Wait until I say OK next time to proceed." I think I might have even discussed it with the MD afterward.
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Old 07-19-2012, 12:31   #139
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Anyone that has shot a GSSF match should know .....
Keep in mind GSSF is sort of geared for beginner shooters. Many will be shooting their first GSSF match or their first match of ANY kind. They can't be expected to know the RO thinks "shooter ready" is a rhetorical question.
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Old 07-19-2012, 12:39   #140
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Keep in mind GSSF is sort of geared for beginner shooters. Many will be shooting their first GSSF match or their first match of ANY kind. They can't be expected to know the RO thinks "shooter ready" is a rhetorical question.
In my defense, I did say that has shot a GSSF match.
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