[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by fastbolt

I can understand your use of "ignoring a worst case scenario might make you more eligible for it" ... in some situations. Health issues come to mind. Driving. Over-filling the bathtub. Not checking hot cookware before grabbing it.

Asteroids slamming into us? Not so much.

Gotta be a middle ground where it benefits us to pay attention to possibilities, but doesn't create unnecessary fear & stress or stops us from functioning normally in the rest of our lives, right?

I'm not suggesting this treaty project effort be ignored. Just not becoming the "gun legislation" equivalent of a hypochondriac about such things. It's not going to happen "overnight". We can slow our roll a bit, and make sure we pay attention to any other potential hazards along the way.

Keeping informed isn't the same thing as reacting to every rumor, hyperbole and "ratings" grabbing, newspaper or magazine selling distortions and innuendo about something which hasn't even reached the meeting stage and produced some working language. Details will become available as (if) it advances and starts to take form. How's our participation in the Kyoto Accords doing?

The US sells a lot of arms.

Waiting, watching, remaining informed ... but neither running around dodging imaginary things someone shouts are falling from the sky, nor buying our heads in the sand, are probably reasonable courses of action.



Not even in the slightest.

Would you recommend sitting in your living room with a loaded gun, waiting for an armed intruder that may come along and select your house, just because some tabloid or "news source" said that you could be the next victim of some armed robber? Of course not (I'd hope not, anyway).

Remaining aware and informed of world (and local) events which might have an effect on your life is a different thing than over-reacting before there's reason to react, or something to react to.

Thee are any number of asteroids which pass close to our planet, you know.

I remember being scared they were going to come and take my guns back in the 70's. Everybody was saying so (but the hue & cry couldn't spread at the speed of the internet back then).

40 years later, I'm still waiting ...

NO!NO!NO! This is the internet. Things simply must be black and white. You have two choices my friend: You can build a below grade bunker in Montana and fill it with canned beans and spam cans of ammo, or you can be a sheep who not only goes to slaughter willingly, but is a collaborationist who brings others with him.

The idea that you could vote pro 2A, keep abreast of the affairs, belong to a 2A group, and have a reasonable approach to such things and not be a "sheeple" is simply not viable.

[janice6]

Right, always excuses to put off any action till you can't do anything about it. Good plan.

I spent my life in Physics Research for Military Defense Systems. We always looked for a possible solution to potential problems. In the event they happened, we would have an option, not panic after the fact.

A plan for action is always better than a plan for reaction.


Asteroids? This has nothing to do with the discussion.

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by janice6

Right, always excuses to put off any action till you can't do anything about it. Good plan.

I spent my life in Physics Research for Military Defense Systems. We always looked for a possible solution to potential problems. In the event they happened, we would have an option, not panic after the fact.

A plan for action is always better than a plan for reaction.


Asteroids? This has nothing to do with the discussion.

Who said he isn't taking ANY action? That's what I mean about black and white. Somehow I think Fastbolt is taking SOME action regarding the 2A generally. But because he isn't burying MRE's in the side of some mountain, or a bit skeptical of online "news" blogs, he might just as well turn his guns over to Libyans or whoever runs the un these days. In fact, I heard Fastbolt has got himself one of dem dar blue helmets under his bed.

[Bruce M]

Not specifically related to anything from the U.N. but from my view in the last twenty-five years here in the U.S. more people are allowed to carry concealed firearms. My guess is also that the people who own guns own more guns individually than gun owners did a couple decades ago. I suspect more than a small part of that is overall economic gains. My guess is that the most serious threats to our Second Amendment rights do not come from the United Nations.

[WoodenPlank]

Originally Posted by janice6

So nothing can happen until the Obama and the Democrat Senate approve it.

You don't see any problem with this possibility do you.

it takes a two-thirds majority of the senate to ratify a treaty. Democratic majority or not, there's no way they get 67 senators to go for this.

Originally Posted by poodleplumber

(1) The US has not signed the treaty.
(2) The treaty regulates international shipment of firearms, not possession of arms by private parties.
(3) Even a signed treaty has to be ratified, which will generate a huge amount of public debate.
(4) Treaties cannot supersede the US Constitution even if ratified. The Supreme Court has spoken clearly on this in Reid v Covert.

Try snopes.com?

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

Originally Posted by HexHead

Treaties only have to be ratified by the Senate, and don't be so cocky about what a lame duck Senate filled with bitter defeated Dems might do after the election.

Doesn't matter. Again, a two-thirds majority is required, and no number of lame duck Democrats is going to change the fact that they just wouldn't have the 67 votes.

[fnfalman]

I have a pre-ban Colt AR15 SP1 for sales for ONE MILLION DOLLARS!!!

Get it before Obama and the UN get it.

[panzer1]

Originally Posted by WoodenPlank

Obama can sign a UN gun ban treaty all he wants - it has zero legal weight until ratified by congress, which will not happen.

Really? That scumbag bypass congress all the time!!

[NEOH212]

Originally Posted by poodleplumber

(1) The US has not signed the treaty.
(2) The treaty regulates international shipment of firearms, not possession of arms by private parties.
(3) Even a signed treaty has to be ratified, which will generate a huge amount of public debate.
(4) Treaties cannot supersede the US Constitution even if ratified. The Supreme Court has spoken clearly on this in Reid v Covert.

Try snopes.com?

That's all fine and dandy assuming that the people that pass it into law actually care about the Constitution and the system for that matter.

For some reason, I don't think they do nor do I think they give a rat's arse about what we think.

It's just a thought.

[WiskyT]

While I'm no fan of demorats, and it's certainly not something I would take for granted, at this time, even demorats are supporting the 2A. Do you thing Sen Manchin is going to ratify a un treaty to take your guns? What about Sens Tester and Baucus, both dems, who stopped the DOD from shredding fired military brass? Even my dem gov, who is no Conservative by any means, signed improvements to our CHP and use of force laws.

[jb1911]

That could never happen.

[jb1911]

Originally Posted by panzer1

Really? That scumbag bypass congress all the time!!

Here's just one example:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...or-unemployed/

[janice6]

I'm not a "Prepper". I do believe we should be aware of the political irresponsibilities occurring every day, and watch the politicians with a magnifying glass, to make sure that whatever policies they're implementing, are what we want, not something to just line their pockets or make them "Kings".

Bury your head in the sand, It may make your world simpler for you. Awareness is a fundamental precept of Freedom.

I'm sure that the people here, speaking from inside knowledge of what the Dems and Liberals are going to do for us, are capable of forecasting the actions of all individuals.

This obvious knowledge of what the rest of the population doesn't know, is quite an assurance that we have no problems with our future if we just leave it to strangers and politicians without regard to any oversight.

Your message is "Trust the Liberals and Politicians" they will only do what they (and you) believe is good for us, the rest of the ignorant masses.

Must be nice for you to know what everyone thinks and is going to do in advance.

don't try to convince us that everything is good, if you think so you have already lost.

[Aeroscoper]

Originally Posted by fastbolt

I didn't consider my response to be anything remotely resembling an "emotionally driven dismissive". I have neither an "emotional investment" in the topic, nor did I dismiss the topic itself.





How do you decide whether there's "something to be gained" from any particular source? Some "news sources" might not have the veracity of the supermarket tabloids, you know.

Also, how do you determine the "discernment level" of anonymous folks who participate in internet forums? Sometimes shared hysteria, paranoia & promoting rumor-mongering may be less than helpful. Rumors fly faster than the speed of reason.

If you take the time to do some online research, you can find some info which might quell some of your anxieties. You might start with the NRA's info ...
http://www.nraila.org/legislation/fe...de-treaty.aspx

Notice the part about the "prepares to draft" for later this year?




I've heard any number of folks stridently predicting "they're coming for our guns!!!" since I was a teenager after the gun control act in '68. After 40 years, it's palled a bit.

Granted, some of the fear-mongering being bandied about may provide some folks with a vicarious thrill (as can detailed discussions about preparing to repel an invasion by hostile non-terrestrial alien forces), but until some proposed treaty is finalized and the details are released, it's just another uptick in the last 40 years of periodic "the sky is falling" episodes.

I spent a career in LE, working in CA, but talking with cops from all over the US, and from some foreign countries.

Maybe we ought to wait and see if there's anything to get excited about before running to the bunkers?

Your initial responce was nothing if not dismissive and emotionally driven, we can agree to disagree here.

Wasn't John Edwards' misuse of campaign funds broken in a tabloid magazine. If you know anything about the use of government run propaganda tactics in history, you'd know not to rely solely on the big sources of information if you don't want to fall in the "sheeple' category. Where do you get your info? Fox news?

How do I determine the discernment level of anonymous internet folks? Logic, reason, lack of emotionally driven dismissives. Ability to separate talking points by the machine from real life observations. Janice6's posts might give you some examples of what I look for in one with a certain level of discernment and wisdom. By the way, don't know Janice6 from Adam, only thing I know about him is that he's' got a cute dog, but don't need to, one's pedigree means little to me compared to logical thinking and clear headed rationale.

So am I following your logic correctly? That since it hasn't happened yet we shouldn't pay attention to it? So do you not carry a gun because you've yet to be robbed? Do you not own a fire extinguisher because your house hasn't burned down?

And your attempts to associate this topic with aliens comes across as both intellectually dishonest and as well as desparate.

If you want to start throwing around marginalizing terms such as "fear monger' and such, you might want to start your finger pointing at our founding fathers and our constitution. By your definition and logic, our constitution is nothing but a collection of 'fear mongerings" about predispositions of governments and the tyrants they invariably produce. There have been many in history with your type mentality, Chamberlain comes to mind.

This type of legislation isn't in a "chicken little", fear mongering category to many that have an understanding of history and governments, it's a natural progression that many have seen coming for decades. The reason I like to keep it on everyone's radar is because laws and regulations are much harder to remove and repeal than it is to prevent.

By the time this piece of legistation gets to a point where it may start to worry people such as yourself, I fear it may be too late, thus my attempts to keep this in everyone's conciousness as much as possible, even if it means having to deal with the mudslinging.

[Aeroscoper]

Originally Posted by WoodenPlank

it takes a two-thirds majority of the senate to ratify a treaty. Democratic majority or not, there's no way they get 67 senators to go for this.



Ding ding ding, we have a winner.



Doesn't matter. Again, a two-thirds majority is required, and no number of lame duck Democrats is going to change the fact that they just wouldn't have the 67 votes.

Do you know much about NDAA? If I recall correctly there were only 6 politicians that voted agaisnt this horrendous piece of legislation that completely goes against the principles of our constitution. You give our politicians WAYYYY too much credit for reasons I know not.

Would you have believed if someone mentioned operation Fast and Furious before it happend? Would have seemed something so far fetched and unconstitutional to believe it would ever occur in our country, and yet it has. Would anyone believe ACORN would have had such power in our republic? Would anyone believe Posse Comitatus would be undermined Would anyone believe drones will soon be flying overhead monitoring U.S. citizens?

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by janice6

Bury your head in the sand, It may make your world simpler for you. Awareness is a fundamental precept of Freedom.

Who? Who is burying their head in the sand in this thread?

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by Aeroscoper

Your initial responce was nothing if not dismissive and emotionally driven, we can agree to disagree here.

Wasn't John Edwards' misuse of campaign funds broken in a tabloid magazine. If you know anything about the use of government run propaganda tactics in history, you'd know not to rely solely on the big sources of information if you don't want to fall in the "sheeple' category. Where do you get your info? Fox news?

How do I determine the discernment level of anonymous internet folks? Logic, reason, lack of emotionally driven dismissives. Ability to separate talking points by the machine from real life observations. Janice6's posts might give you some examples of what I look for in one with a certain level of discernment and wisdom. By the way, don't know Janice6 from Adam, only thing I know about him is that he's' got a cute dog, but don't need to, one's pedigree means little to me compared to logical thinking and clear headed rationale.

So am I following your logic correctly? That since it hasn't happened yet we shouldn't pay attention to it? So do you not carry a gun because you've yet to be robbed? Do you not own a fire extinguisher because your house hasn't burned down?

And your attempts to associate this topic with aliens comes across as both intellectually dishonest and as well as desparate.

If you want to start throwing around marginalizing terms such as "fear monger' and such, you might want to start your finger pointing at our founding fathers and our constitution. By your definition and logic, our constitution is nothing but a collection of 'fear mongerings" about predispositions of governments and the tyrants they invariably produce. There have been many in history with your type mentality, Chamberlain comes to mind.

This type of legislation isn't in a "chicken little", fear mongering category to many that have an understanding of history and governments, it's a natural progression that many have seen coming for decades. The reason I like to keep it on everyone's radar is because laws and regulations are much harder to remove and repeal than it is to prevent.

By the time this piece of legistation gets to a point where it may start to worry people such as yourself, I fear it may be too late, thus my attempts to keep this in everyone's conciousness as much as possible, even if it means having to deal with the mudslinging.

And people who claim the sky is falling, and it doesn't, never can say when it will. If they are so sure of things, why aren't they able to give some kind of time frame?

I don't know that it's ever been cheaper, and easier in this country to by and carry guns. I can buy 30 round mags for my smei-automatic rifle for $10.00. The rifle is a near duplicate of what our military uses and can be bought for less than a week's pay.

So, when is all this going to happen?

[Chris Brines]

Alex Jones is biased he's anti Republican, and Anti Democrat, and many of his stories are compiled with a biased sentiment. However, I have not personally read anything he reported on that has turned out to be false. Even his suggestions that 911 was an inside job are accompanied by some pretty compelling facts that really make ya wonder sometimes.

But the UN Arms Trade Treaty is nothing to ignore, it is very serious and potentially devastating. Why do you think Louisiana is in the process of passing a law that basically says, "our 2nd Amendment rights are not to be stepped on by anyone, foreign or domestic".

See Jindal Speaking on that very subject here. He even mentions that part of the reason for him passing this law is that he doesn't trust the fed to uphold the 2nd Amendment, and it goes hand in hand with the fact that the President and Secretary of State are PUSHING for this deal with the UN, a Constitutional violation in itself. It's like saying, "my country's people won't let me take their guns away and control them! They keep whining about their 'Bill of Rights'! Will you please make them stop?"

CPAC Chicago: NRA News Interview with Gov. Bobby Jindal - YouTube

CPAC Chicago: NRA News Interview with Gov. Bobby Jindal - YouTube

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by Chris Brines

Alex Jones is biased he's anti Republican, and Anti Democrat, and many of his stories are compiled with a biased sentiment. However, I have not personally read anything he reported on that has turned out to be false. Even his suggestions that 911 was an inside job are accompanied by some pretty compelling facts that really make ya wonder sometimes.

But the UN Arms Trade Treaty is nothing to ignore, it is very serious and potentially devastating. Why do you think Louisiana is in the process of passing a law that basically says, "our 2nd Amendment rights are not to be stepped on by anyone, foreign or domestic".

See Jindal Speaking on that very subject here. He even mentions that part of the reason for him passing this law is that he doesn't trust the fed to uphold the 2nd Amendment, and it goes hand in hand with the fact that the President and Secretary of State are PUSHING for this deal with the UN, a Constitutional violation in itself. It's like saying, "my country's people won't let me take their guns away and control them! They keep whining about their 'Bill of Rights'! Will you please make them stop?"


CPAC Chicago: NRA News Interview with Gov. Bobby Jindal - YouTube

Alex Jones is complete raving lunatic. If you are going to align yourself with him, you are going off the deep end. Do you really think the Bilderberg group eats gold plated babies? He does.

[Chris Brines]

Originally Posted by WiskyT

Alex Jones is complete raving lunatic. If you are going to align yourself with him, you are going off the deep end. Do you really think the Bilderberg group eats gold plated babies? He does.

Well I don't know enough of the Bilderberg group to begin with, much less if they eat gold plated babies, and I don't really align myself with Jones, but anything he has reported on that he said was DEFINITELY true, has not been discredited to my knowledge. That thing about the babies does sound like something a raving lunatic would say, I'll give you that.

Still, I wouldn't take the UN's anti gun agenda lightly. Did you watch the videos in the article?

[jb1911]

The Wall Street Journal and Fox News are the only remaining news sources I trust. Everything else is bullsh.

[janice6]

Originally Posted by WiskyT

Who? Who is burying their head in the sand in this thread?

There are people that claim that since this has not come to pass it therefore, is not possible.

Tell that to many of the oppressed peoples of this world. After they have lost everything blindingly trusting others.

I have no interest in initiating a revolution, but, I have considerable interest in keeping this Republic good for all US citizens, not just the ones that believe politicians have only good in their hearts.

If this is true of politicians, why are we all not happy and content with our good fortune?

Good fortune is received by perpetual caution and concern. it is not something that we receive from a group that has personal interests other than our own.

You argue for doing nothing, since things are not possible, in your opinion.

This is the "Head in the sand" I speak of. When your head is in the sand you don't see what others are taking away from you. You don't miss it until it's gone. Then it's too late.

I said before, action is better than reaction. Action of actively watching and protecting the freedoms we have and not losing more is my concern, and it should be the concern everyone that is free.

I see that you are trying to convince me that the Democrats and liberals will care for me and I should not worry. Look at what this did for the minorities of our society. They are dependent on handouts from the gracious Socialists who need them dependant for their political reasons.

Is this why are you taking issue with me voicing my opinion and concerns? where you are uncomfortable with oversight and want to be able to "do your own thing"?

You can do "your own thing", but only as long as it doesn't take away my options and freedoms.

Everyones concerns are important here, not just yours.

Believe Obama, he only has your best interests at heart........or maybe not.

[Three-Five-Seven]

Rove and the boys are doing a good job of circulating this fear as the election approaches.

The Supreme Court of the United States ruled, over half a century ago, that any treaty signed by the executive branch is non-binding on the American population.

This rumor is total drivel and aimed at confusing and scaring the electorate.

I live in Arizona and I can assure you there is no gun control coming to any town near me any time in my life time. The people here will not stand for it! And, the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States assures them they won't have to.

[Aeroscoper]

Originally Posted by WiskyT

And people who claim the sky is falling, and it doesn't, never can say when it will. If they are so sure of things, why aren't they able to give some kind of time frame?

I don't know that it's ever been cheaper, and easier in this country to by and carry guns. I can buy 30 round mags for my smei-automatic rifle for $10.00. The rifle is a near duplicate of what our military uses and can be bought for less than a week's pay.

So, when is all this going to happen?

I'm a bit confused by your logic. If you're saying that since it hasn't happened yet, or that I can't predict to the day when it will, it's likely not going to?

Or since the mags for your gun and guns in general are cheaper than it's ever been, there won't be a push for other ways to infringe on the 2nd amendment? Have you been following the price of ammo btw?

Let me try to make myself a bit more specific, I don't think the world is coming to an end any time soon. I don't believe in aliens or meteors destroying the earth. I don't believe in Halebop or Mayan prophesies or even Nostradamus.

What I do beileve is that any government, especially a "super" government, such as the UN, will always look for ways to control the populace. Why? Not because the voices in my head tell me so, because every government in the existence of man-kind has always gone that way. If you believe this is the one time in history that it's not the case I have to ask, why not?

Is it because of our selfless leader Obama? Is it because of the our uncorruptable justice department behind Holder keeping us safe? Is it because the world is so much more ethical than it's ever been? Or is it because you're alive now and haven't experienced it before?

Not many saw Hitler coming, nor Mao, nor Mussolini, nor Chavez. Some saw it, but I guarantee they were met with jeers and doubters.

I say we all come back in 2 years and compare notes...

[Aeroscoper]

Originally Posted by Three-Five-Seven

Rove and the boys are doing a good job of circulating this fear as the election approaches.

The Supreme Court of the United States ruled, over half a century ago, that any treaty signed by the executive branch is non-binding on the American population.

This rumor is total drivel and aimed at confusing and scaring the electorate.

I live in Arizona and I can assure you there is no gun control coming to any town near me any time in my life time. The people here will not stand for it! And, the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States assures them they won't have to.

Isn't the Justice Dept. coming after AZ for attempting to secure your own borders and prosecuting illegals?

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by Aeroscoper

I'm a bit confused by your logic. If you're saying that since it hasn't happened yet, or that I can't predict to the day when it will, it's likely not going to?

Or since the mags for your gun and guns in general are cheaper than it's ever been, there won't be a push for other ways to infringe on the 2nd amendment? Have you been following the price of ammo btw?

Let me try to make myself a bit more specific, I don't think the world is coming to an end any time soon. I don't believe in aliens or meteors destroying the earth. I don't believe in Halebop or Mayan prophesies or even Nostradamus.

What I do beileve is that any government, especially a "super" government, such as the UN, will always look for ways to control the populace. Why? Not because the voices in my head tell me so, because every government in the existence of man-kind has always gone that way. If you believe this is the one time in history that it's not the case I have to ask, why not?

Is it because of our selfless leader Obama? Is it because of the our uncorruptable justice department behind Holder keeping us safe? Is it because the world is so much more ethical than it's ever been? Or is it because you're alive now and haven't experienced it before?

Not many saw Hitler coming, nor Mao, nor Mussolini, nor Chavez. Some saw it, but I guarantee they were met with jeers and doubters.

I say we all come back in 2 years and compare notes...

I couldn't read you're whole post, and this will be the last one of mine in this thread. But, you really need to know all of the history of something. People did see hitler coming, they agreed with him. They voted him in after he was a public figure in one form or another for decades. He told everybody who would listen what he wanted to do.

As for the price of ammo, again, you have to look back more than five years. 25 years ago it cost more than it does now, and the dollar was worth much more. Ammo has gone from dirt cheap, to just cheap. It is not expensive. Expensive ammo was 1985.