[okie]

Originally Posted by bac1023

Why would you even want to?

Cocked and locked is easier and much safer.

This

[4Rules]

The C&S SFS (Safety Fast Shooting System) kit was made for situations like this.

<http://www.cylinder-slide.com/cond5.shtml>
<http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=SFSkits>

[Jim Watson]

I suggest that what Mr Browning and Colt management "intended" was to come up with a design they could sell thousands and thousands of guns to the army with.

As to use of the safety catch, who cares if it was intended for the convenience of the cavalry? Surely we have learned a few things since then. After all, the 1903 Springfield has a magazine cutoff so you can fire it single shot until the enemy charges and not waste ammunition in the meanwhile. Does that still sound like a good idea, too?

Does anybody here say that the gun is as READY TO SHOOT when carried other than "cocked and locked?"

Note, I used to do it. I still have the Commander with spur hammer installed for the purpose of Condition 2 carry. I never shot myself in the foot when lowering the hammer, or dropped the gun while thumb cocking it. But I finally realized the guy who advocated the technique was lefthanded in a day before ambidextrous safeties. And sure enough, when I tried using the safety catch as it can be operated (notice I do not say "intended") I found it faster and more secure than all that manipulation of the hammer down and up.

[sentinel208]

I have carried mine cocked and locked many many times and have yet to shoot myself. No worries here either...To each his own I guess.

[Shark1007]

I think it was Cooper who said regarding condition two (hammer down live round) that it should be done in a freshly plowed field with no rocks to cause riccochets from bullets hitting the ground every time you re-holster your gun.

Condition one and only for me.

[nastytrigger]

On carrying Condition 2, any concern of the hammer getting hit with enough force to fire the chambered round?

[Snaps]

Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348

I do it all the time, no worries.

same here. I trust myself to not slip on the hammer as much as I trust myself to not accidentally pull the trigger on my glocks.

Being said.....if you don't trust yourself, don't do what you're afraid you can't.

[bac1023]

I don't recommend ever lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber.

That being said, the 1911 was basically designed to do it. The half cock position is there to prevent the gun from firing should your thumb slip off the hammer while cocking it on a loaded chamber.

Of course, times have changed and cocked and locked is certainly the safest and most widely accepted way to carry a 1911.

[Jim Watson]

I think it was Cooper who said regarding condition two (hammer down live round) that it should be done in a freshly plowed field with no rocks to cause riccochets from bullets hitting the ground every time you re-holster your gun.

I recall Col Cooper saying that Condition 2 was suitable for a gun to be stored loaded but off the body.

On carrying Condition 2, any concern of the hammer getting hit with enough force to fire the chambered round?

No, that is the purpose of the inertial firing pin, shorter than its tunnel, sprung backwards, and not protruding into the primer unless struck with some force. With the hammer down, the firing pin is held in the middle of the tunnel with nothing to drive it forward.

[Shark1007]

Yes, there is a huge drop fire concern with condition two.

[CDR_Glock]

Originally Posted by nastytrigger

It's weird. Anytime this friend see's my 1911, he becomes weirded-out by my cocked and locked 1911. I've explained the design, the safeties, etc., numerous times.

He's been wanting a 1911, but even more so, he's wanting a Sig P938 (nearly same manual of arms, minus grip safety). He has two Glock's and a Taurus .38Spc, so 1911's are a different design to him.

He's afraid that the hammer will fall inadvertently, from what I gather. Says he'd feel more comfortable chambering a round, and then lowering the hammer (on that live round) for carry... Ugh.

Is this an old revolver mind-set? What's so scary about cocked and locked?

So does your friend actually carry? I'm guessing "No."

I have a P938. I also carry a 1911 Ed Brown Special Forces. I feel safer with the 1911 because the grip safety needs to be depressed to fire. I'm also significantly more accurate with it.

[1911Tuner]

Originally Posted by Shark1007

Yes, there is a huge drop fire concern with condition two.

No more than with condition One, and probably a bit less.

Although the firing pin is about .050 inch closer to the primer, the extra bit of compression of the spring offsets it. Momentum robbed at the beginning of the acceleration is more effective at reducing impact than after it's established. In any event, any difference is negligible.

Anyway, it's gone a little wide of the mark. Getting fumble-fingered and dropping the gun aside, the 1911 is safe to carry in Condition One. The sear would have to instantaneously disappear before it could go off in a holster, and the sear just isn't that fragile.

It can even be carried in Condition Zero, but that's not the question here.

It's as safe to carry in Condition Two or at half-cock as it is in Condition One. The safest way is Condition Three as no loaded gun can ever be completely "safe."

It's a little risky getting it into Condition Two or half-cocked, but once it's there, the danger is over. Be careful. Go slow. Do it properly.

Browning had no intent as to the mode of carry. He provided multiple options and left it to Army protocol to decide. In short, Browning...along with a team of Colt's engineers...delivered what was asked of them. No more and no less.

[rich52us]

Originally Posted by Shark1007

Yes, there is a huge drop fire concern with condition two.

I thought the grip safety was there in an attempt to prevent drop fire.

[1911Tuner]

Originally Posted by rich52us

I thought the grip safety was there in an attempt to prevent drop fire.

It is, but not in the way that many think. If the pistol is dropped straight down onto the muzzle from a height of 6-8 feet, the grip safety won't do a thing to prevent a discharge.

The grip safety prevents drop-fire if it's dropped from a height of 6-8 feet and lands muzzle up without actually hitting straight onto the cocked hammer.

Remember that the pistol was designed primarily for mounted cavalry. In the event of a detached lanyard...either intentionally or not...dropping the gun from the back of a horse during an action could result in it inverting and striking the ground with the gun pointed at the horse and/or the rider.

The gun comes to an abrupt halt, and the heavy steel trigger obeys Newton 2 and remains in motion...overcoming the sear spring and bumping the disconnect...rolling the sear out of the hammer hooks, possibly with enough force to prevent the sear from resetting and grabbing the half-cock notch. Bang. Horse or rider is shot.

This is actually a pretty unlikely scenario even without the grip safety. The grip safety just eliminates it completely.

So many people today hate the grip safety, saying that it serves no purpose...and some of them have expressed puzzlement at just what Browning was thinking...but there was a reason for it being there. It had an important function in 1912, and it still does today. If you drop a pistol...unless you purposely try to drop it straight down onto the muzzle...it's more likely to invert and hit the ground muzzle up than muzzle down.

[1911Tuner]

I've got a little time on my hands, so let's explore the question of the grip safety a little deeper. Specifically, the feeling that so many have concerning its purpose and its usefulness.

The 1911 pistol was designed for a specific purpose...on request by a military entity. The nature of contracting means that the paying customer pretty much gets what he wants. The US Army decided that it wanted a grip safety clear back in 1905...and they got one.

The pistol was intended primarily for mounted cavalry. It wasn't designed for IDPA and USPA competition, and fast draw from a speed rig was never remotely considered. It was mandated and assumed that the horse soldier would store the pistol with the hammer down on an empty chamber until such time as it was needed for charging an enemy position. The pistol would then be readied by chambering a round, engaging the manual safety, and riding forth to do battle. Just before the point of contact, the manual safety was disengaged, and the fighting commenced.

In the event of the trooper being shot, he would quite naturally drop the pistol. Mass and momentum being what it is, the gun would stand a good chance of striking the ground with the muzzle pointed up...either at the riderless horse or at one of the downed trooper's fellows. Friendly fire being just as dangerous as enemy fire...the grip safety eliminated a round of friendly fire from the storm. Striking with the muzzle down and firing into the ground would be of no consequence...so that wasn't a huge concern except in garrison...and the pistol wasn't supposed to be maintained with a hot chamber in that situation.

[ithaca_deerslayer]

Originally Posted by bac1023

I don't recommend ever lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber.

That being said, the 1911 was basically designed to do it. The half cock position is there to prevent the gun from firing should your thumb slip off the hammer while cocking it on a loaded chamber.

Of course, times have changed and cocked and locked is certainly the safest and most widely accepted way to carry a 1911.

How do you lower the hammer on a loaded revolver you've decided not to shoot? Seems to me the hammer HAS to be lowered on a live chamber.

But with the 1911, you have the choice of putting the safety on and leaving it cocked until you decide to unload by pulling the mag and racking the slide.

[Shark1007]

1911 Drop Testing
The original testing used a 9mm steel firing pin and a 9mm titanium firing pin. The firing pin hole was then reamed for a .45 sized pin and the tests were repeated with .45 sized steel and titanium firing pins. All of the firing pins were weighed prior to testing. A Wolff XP firing pin return spring was used for all of the testing. All of the cases used for testing used Winchester large pistol primers. The frame and slide were donated by Gary Smith at Caspian. The pistol was built using techniques learned from Larry Vickers and Bruce Gray. The pistol was tied to a section of 550 cord, looped over a pulley, and dropped onto common floor materials. The magazine was loaded with 8 dummy rounds to bring the pistol up to proper weight. Four floor types were selected. Concrete, Pergo, 5/8 plywood, and shag type carpeting. The thumb safety was left OFF as preliminary testing with the safety ON indicated that damage to the thumb safety, slide, and plunger tube would occur with only a few drops. The hammer frequently dropped to the half cock notch during testing.
Firing Pin Weights:
9mm STI titanium pin--- 2.17 grams
9mm Caspian steel pin --- 4.45 grams
.45 STI titanium pin --- 2.36 grams
.45 Colt steel pin --- 4.30 grams
I was amazed at how easily a Series 70 1911 could be drop fired. Steel firing pins and concrete are a bad combination. 9mm sized pins and titanium construction will add several feet to your safe drop distance. I will be running Wolff XP springs and a Ti pin in all of my Series 70 type 1911’s.
I have attached an Excel spread sheet with the results. You will notice a lot of “Did Not Drop” entries. I saw no reason to drop test a particular combination of firing pin and flooring if it was not firing at higher distances or on harder flooring. I did several drops at various distances to get an idea of safe drop distances. This was to account for hard or sensitive primers. Each primed case was dropped only once. Just in case you were wondering, the pistol sustained significant damage. The muzzle is distorted from being dropped. I had to turn down the outside diameter of the barrel three times just to keep the slide from locking up. The muzzle, magwell, and grip safety have some serious blending in their future. Nothing sounds worse than a 1911 hitting the concrete from 10 feet!

[Jim Watson]

It was mandated and assumed that the horse soldier would store the pistol with the hammer down on an empty chamber until such time as it was needed for charging an enemy position.

And there is the big difference between an early military use and modern personal and police use. You describe an offensive application for the pistol, we now mostly use the handgun for defense and do not have the luxury of loading our weapon only when a known enemy is in plain sight.

Times change, let's just enjoy the versatility of a well thought out design.

[Fairshake]

I have been a fan of the 1911 all my life and as a former Army 4th ID soldier and a cop of 15 years I've carried this gun.
In 1965 when I signed up to the ARMY life they carried the 1911 in it's holster with a full magazine, hammer down on a empty chamber. You were instructed to draw the weapon from the holster and while doing so move the slide to the rear to put a round into full battery and ready to fire. At no time did you carry the weapon with the cocked and locked of Cooper fame.
After the service and while a Deputy Sheriff in Baton Rouge, La. I carried the 1911 again except in the cocked and locked position.
I was stopped by several civilians every day so they could inform me that my gun was cocked and subject to go off any second. It was so bad that I began to carry the gun in the position of hammer down on safety notch.
If you search for any early nomenclature of the 1911, you will find this position noted in the notes as being the safety notch position.
I never had a problem drawing the 1911 and doing the same thing I do with any SAA revolver and that is cocking the hammer as it comes from the holster.
It's my experience that both ways work and if you practice with either or both styles, they will work for you.

[cdog533]

Originally Posted by Deriffe

I am seriously flabbergasted that anyone would actually suggest there is a safe way to lower the hammer on a live round of a 1911. If the weapon is not equipped with a hammer drop mechanism (Sig Sauer), the only time that hammer should drop on a live round is when it is pointed at something (someone) that you intend to shoot. To suggest anything else would be the same as saying it's safe to play russian roulette 5/6 of the time. Naysayers and internet experts can beat their chests all they want. Your protests are as ridiculous as the very idea. There are only two safe ways to carry a loaded 1911. Locked and cocked or cold. Anything else is a ticking time bomb. Posting it on a public message board very well could bite one in the rear end some day.

I agree. Anything other than this is pure misinformation and NOT taught by instructors...

It's either condition one or condition 3 for a 1911. With multiple safeties, Condition 1 seems fine. Maybe for a Hi-power or something, Cond 3 is safer.

[FLIPPER 348]

Originally Posted by cdog533

I agree. Anything other than this is pure misinformation and NOT taught by instructors...

Actually it's pure fact as the way the 1911 was designed.

[cdog533]

Originally Posted by countrygun

I can tell you the hammer on a 1911 is not as easy to "work with" under stress as is a SAA. I have seen more fumbles cocking a 1911 than I have taking the safety off. In an SD pistol the fewer the fumble possibilities the more I like it.

Agreed. With a revolver, it's an easier movement, and one I pay FULL attention to when I do it on my SA guns. Like FULL attention, like handling a loaded gun or something kind of attention...

[cdog533]

Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348

Actually it's pure fact as the way the 1911 was designed.

Aren't you just begging for an accidental discharge? Cooper thought so.

I'd rather pull the mag, rack it, drop hammer, and then reinsert mag, and just leave it in 3. Decocking seems more dangerous.

Would you hand decock Beretta 92 under the same circumstance (not using the decocker lever I mean)??? A 92 really is not a Cond 1 gun unless you are wacky, so it has to go down. A Beretta hammer is NOT designed for hand decocking.

(All respect to Flipper348, a knowledgeable senior member, in these posts. We are just getting opinions out for discussion, which is good!...)

[1911Tuner]

And there is the big difference between an early military use and modern personal and police use.

Understood and acknowledged, Jim. My point was simply to explain the original intent, and why these features are there...and that they are all viable options. And...as I've noted before...whenever I carry a 1911, it's cocked and locked. I'm not arguing against C-1 any more than I'm arguing for C-2 or 3.

When I was spending a lot of time knockin' around in the boondocks...if I carried a 1911 instead of a heavy revolver...I carried in Condition Two in a full flap holster in order to offer the pistol maximum protection from hard knocks and the elements while still having the option of one-hand operation if needed. Any other scenario, it's in Condition One. Has been for nearly 40 years.

[Shark1007]

Tuner

I did the same, condition two, when I was duty carrying one and it always gave me the creeps to lower the hammer with the muzzle in the dirt barrel by the door.

I was appropriately schooled and went to C1 ever after.

I'm involved with a drop fire case (not a 1911) coming up soon where the diabetic fellow will be having a leg amputation pretty soon and am conversant with the issue.