Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-14-2012, 09:42   #1
esh325
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 310
pre cocked striker fired pistols with safeties?

I'm seeing this trend of M&P shield,FNS-9 with manual safeties. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole point of glock type pre cocked trigger that it doesn't need a manual safety to be safely carried? Having a manual safety defeats the whole purpose of it.
esh325 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2012, 10:18   #2
ChicagoZman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Indiana
Posts: 985
Some people and some departments prefer having the option of a manual safety with the thought that should someone disarm you of your firearm, they may not be able to use it against you if they are unfamiliar with the safety on your gun.

I think it is more prevalent among police departments than civilians as LEO carry openly, whilst civilians generally (not always) carry concealed. You may wish to ask Mas Ayoob over on the GATE Self Defense Forum about this.
__________________
Glock and M&P Armorer
NRA Pistol Instructor
Illinois Concealed Carry Instructor
Glocks: 17, 17L, 22, 22C, 23, 24C, 27, 34
ChicagoZman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2012, 10:19   #3
fnfalman
Chicks Dig It
 
fnfalman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: California & New Mexico, US
Posts: 57,725


Having a manual safety defeats a lot of purposes.

Take the current M1911A1 from Colt for example. It has both a grip safety AND a firing pin block safety. What exactly does the thumb safety do to improve the overall "safeness"?

Or the Beretta M92FS with the safety detent on the decocker. What's the point? You already dropped the hammer down AND it also has a firing pin safety.
__________________
Can you dig it?
fnfalman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2012, 10:21   #4
maxpower220
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 222
I trained for years on weapons with safeties, it is a natural transition to use one on a striker fire. Also, that is the way I train with that weapon (Shield in this case).
maxpower220 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2012, 10:43   #5
esh325
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 310
I may not have explained it very well. I'm talking about manual safeties that apply to only Glock pre cocked striker fired pistols. My understanding is that the whole point of these mechanisms is that they suppose to be safe to carry without the need for a manual safety, yet many arms makers these days put them on. You might as well be carrying a SAO only pistol with a better trigger. For example, the M&P pistol has the strange two piece trigger safety. That's totally pointless if you have version with the thumb safety.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoZman View Post
Some people and some departments prefer having the option of a manual safety with the thought that should someone disarm you of your firearm, they may not be able to use it against you if they are unfamiliar with the safety on your gun.

I think it is more prevalent among police departments than civilians as LEO carry openly, whilst civilians generally (not always) carry concealed. You may wish to ask Mas Ayoob over on the GATE Self Defense Forum about this.
What's funny is a lot of those people deem it necessary to have a manual safety on a DA/SA pistol, but carry revolvers with no safeties.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
Having a manual safety defeats a lot of purposes.

Take the current M1911A1 from Colt for example. It has both a grip safety AND a firing pin block safety. What exactly does the thumb safety do to improve the overall "safeness"?

Or the Beretta M92FS with the safety detent on the decocker. What's the point? You already dropped the hammer down AND it also has a firing pin safety.
If I were to redesign the 1911, I would take away all the safeties on it and replace them with just a decocker, and firing pin block if necessary.

Last edited by esh325; 06-14-2012 at 10:51..
esh325 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2012, 10:50   #6
ChicagoZman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Indiana
Posts: 985
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh325 View Post
If I were to redesign the 1911, I would take away all the safeties on it and replace them with just a decocker, and firing pin block if necessary.
That would make it very difficult to shoot as you would then need to manually cock the gun before firing.
__________________
Glock and M&P Armorer
NRA Pistol Instructor
Illinois Concealed Carry Instructor
Glocks: 17, 17L, 22, 22C, 23, 24C, 27, 34
ChicagoZman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2012, 10:53   #7
M&P15T
Beard One
 
M&P15T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Arlington, VA.
Posts: 11,432
There's no better answer than "it's what the market is demanding". It's all about sales numbers.

Honestly, you're over thinking this.
__________________
Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus (519 BC 430 BC) Power should only be given to those that want it least.
M&P15T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2012, 10:57   #8
esh325
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
There's no better answer than "it's what the market is demanding". It's all about sales numbers.

Honestly, you're over thinking this.
Yes, you're probably right.





Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoZman View Post
That would make it very difficult to shoot as you would then need to manually cock the gun before firing.
They didn't really complain about that back in the days of the Single action Army. Perhaps it might be slower, but I think the extra safety it adds is well worth it.

Last edited by esh325; 06-14-2012 at 11:04..
esh325 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2012, 11:46   #9
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
fastbolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Within the lightning (Northern CA)
Posts: 9,997
A closer examination of the nature of the safeties built within the design of the newer plastic pistols ... such as the Glock, M&P and different 99 series models ... would probably help some folks better understand the thinking behind the designers.

The addition of an external manual safety, such as the thumb safety on the M&P, is usually driven by the perceived needs of LE/Mil/Gov users.

The M&P's thumb safety was originally created for the M&P 45, to satisfy the anticipated specifications for such in the canceled military pistol trials. It wasn't until S&W released the .45 thumb safety model to the public that a demand for a thumb safety option in the rest of the model line became strong enough for them to decide to include it as a commercial option.

The G21SF was redesigned for the anticipated military pistol trials to include a cross-bolt type thumb safety for the same reason, but it wasn't added to the regular production models when the trials were canceled.

Glocks have been available with a thumb safety in Europe for gov sales for some time.

Engineers include features in their designs for reasons, even if those reasons aren't necessarily apparent, or desired, by prospective private person buyers..

When it comes right down to it, the proper manipulation and use of any pistol design is a training issue.
__________________
Sub Club #9; .40 S&W Club #1953; S&W Club #3913
Retired LE - firearms instructor/armorer
fastbolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2012, 12:47   #10
esh325
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 310
That's a very good explanation. I suppose some features are more out of demand than for practical purposes. Wouldn't buy it myself, but if Glock was smart, they would offer a thumb safety version of the Glock in the US. I have no doubt that would make more people buy Glocks.
esh325 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2012, 14:26   #11
Nakanokalronin
JMB & MTK
 
Nakanokalronin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,428
Only thing stopping the trigger from getting pulled on a Glock or M&P is a tiny trigger tab in the middle of the trigger. I'm not relying on that if something were to get caught in the trigger guard no matter how remote that possibility is. Those striker fired triggers aren't as heavy or hard to pull as people claim and if you want to modify it to make it lighter/ a better trigger, a thumb safety is even more prevalent.

The XD can be had with a thumb safety but the grip safety already does the job in a passive way. It's trigger pull is much less than a stock Glock or M&P, almost SA.

Grant it, many of the thumb safeties on striker guns are available for LE agencies that require them. For private use, get them set-up any way you want. I also like riding thumb safeties like on 1911s and now the M&P since it gives me a nice high hold. Riding the thumb safety when firing and training makes flicking them off (extended or not) second nature 100% of the time.

If some people had their way, they'd walk around with no safeties and a 3# trigger pull because you know....your finger will be the only thing possible to make the trigger go back.

Funny how nobody complains much about manual safeties on a rifle but foams at the mouth if a handgun has one.

Wait a minute....General Firearms Forum....okay go.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by Nakanokalronin; 06-14-2012 at 14:29..
Nakanokalronin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2012, 14:31   #12
Metal Angel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh325 View Post
If I were to redesign the 1911, I would take away all the safeties on it and replace them with just a decocker, and firing pin block if necessary.
that's pretty much how it was originally designed. It didn't have a decocker, but it was meant to be manually decocked for carry. The safety was added later because dudes couldn't decock it safely to reholster while riding a horse. Then people just stopped decocking it altogether, and now common practice is to carry cocked and locked. Personally I see nothing wrong with that. The safety works great and is much faster to use than cocking a hammer. I think my only wish would be ambi safeties, just in case you have to grab it with your left hand for whatever reason (oh, and for southpaws too I guess)

Also, I don't like manually cocking an SA. Can't tell you how many times the hammer has slipped from my sweaty thumb on my .22 revolver. Yup, it goes bang when that happens, just as of I had pulled the trigger.

Last edited by Metal Angel; 06-14-2012 at 14:36..
Metal Angel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2012, 14:48   #13
Nakanokalronin
JMB & MTK
 
Nakanokalronin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,428
People also forget the 1903 which pre-dates the 1911 with a grip safety, manual thumb safety and internal cocked hammer. None of those feature were added at the request of LE or military. Train with a manual safety and it's not a problem. Don't want to train or can't put in the time, then buy a gun without it. It's no so much an argument on why a gun would have one but more along the lines of how and how much someone trains with their firearms.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Nakanokalronin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2012, 18:05   #14
esh325
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakanokalronin View Post
Only thing stopping the trigger from getting pulled on a Glock or M&P is a tiny trigger tab in the middle of the trigger. I'm not relying on that if something were to get caught in the trigger guard no matter how remote that possibility is. Those striker fired triggers aren't as heavy or hard to pull as people claim and if you want to modify it to make it lighter/ a better trigger, a thumb safety is even more prevalent.

The XD can be had with a thumb safety but the grip safety already does the job in a passive way. It's trigger pull is much less than a stock Glock or M&P, almost SA.

Grant it, many of the thumb safeties on striker guns are available for LE agencies that require them. For private use, get them set-up any way you want. I also like riding thumb safeties like on 1911s and now the M&P since it gives me a nice high hold. Riding the thumb safety when firing and training makes flicking them off (extended or not) second nature 100% of the time.

If some people had their way, they'd walk around with no safeties and a 3# trigger pull because you know....your finger will be the only thing possible to make the trigger go back.

Funny how nobody complains much about manual safeties on a rifle but foams at the mouth if a handgun has one.

Wait a minute....General Firearms Forum....okay go.
The tactics and manual of arms are quite different from a handgun.
esh325 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2012, 18:20   #15
Nakanokalronin
JMB & MTK
 
Nakanokalronin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh325 View Post
The tactics and manual of arms are quite different from a handgun.
The argument of the manual safety is that a trigger block is good enough. It's only about the trigger pull and keeping your finger off the trigger until your ready to fire. This is the same weather it be rifle, handgun or shotgun.

The pistol is the only one that people complain about having a manual safety because it might be hard to disengage, you'll forget to disengage it or you won't disengage it in time which can technically be argued with any other firearm, shoulder fired or not. No doubt a rifle has a different manual of arms, but that safety flicks off one way or the other and still has a trigger to make the gun go boom. If someone thinks a manual safety is a death wish or is to hard to train with, it must be just as hard on a long gun for them as well.

Your hand is on the grip of an AR15, 1911,M&P, etc. and your thumb is in reach of the thumb safety that goes down to disengage and without doing so, none of them will fire. That is why there is no difference in what the topic is about. If we're talking about everything else, then yes the manual of arms are different.

Either way, it's good some companies provide options for those who train one way or the other.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by Nakanokalronin; 06-14-2012 at 18:29.. Reason: because
Nakanokalronin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2012, 18:31   #16
ChicagoZman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Indiana
Posts: 985
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakanokalronin View Post
The XD can be had with a thumb safety but the grip safety already does the job in a passive way. It's trigger pull is much less than a stock Glock or M&P, almost SA.
That's because it (XD) is single action while Glock and M&P are double action/safe action only.
__________________
Glock and M&P Armorer
NRA Pistol Instructor
Illinois Concealed Carry Instructor
Glocks: 17, 17L, 22, 22C, 23, 24C, 27, 34
ChicagoZman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2012, 18:32   #17
Metal Angel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 790
I'm thinking more and more about getting a carry gun with a manual safety. As long as its quick, positive and ambi, I shouldn't have any trouble with it. Not that I'm having any trouble with my Glock, but when I'm playing with my kids (3 and 1) I think about it. One more thing to keep the trigger from being actuated should it fall out of my holster. Again, I haven't had trouble with it and it doesn't ever fall out, but it's just something I think about. It definitely wouldn't hurt anyway. I would have no trouble training with it.
Metal Angel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2012, 19:15   #18
Nakanokalronin
JMB & MTK
 
Nakanokalronin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoZman View Post
That's because it (XD) is single action while Glock and M&P are double action/safe action only.
Yep it sure is and the grip safety is complained about to no end as well. The triggers on the Glocks and M&Ps are not exactly long DA pulls though since they're partially cocked strikers.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by Nakanokalronin; 06-14-2012 at 19:18..
Nakanokalronin is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:30.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 826
220 Members
606 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31