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Old 06-16-2012, 06:36   #41
TheJ
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My understanding of the M&P has always been that practically speaking the gun is fully cocked without pulling the trigger but technically it is DAO because there is some modicum of cocking action (although Much less than Glocks) that takes place when the trigger is pulled.... As explained here:http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.ph...666&#entry3666
And here: http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.ph...ao#entry318203
Quote:
Originally Posted by David B.
Practically, the striker is fully cocked i.e., single action mode.

Technically, the gun is considered a double action gun because there is a small (like a few thousandths of an inch) rearward movement of the striker as the trigger is pulled all the way.

Explanation, it all lies in the shape of the sear. S&W has machined a little hump into the top of the sear right where it engages with the striker face. This little hump creates a slight caming effect causing the striker to move rearward very slightly when the sear is engaged enough to allow the striker to fall. However, this rearward movement is not necessary for the gun to fire. So why did S&W build this into the sear design? Two reasons:

1. If the striker is moved rearward even as slightly as it is in the M&P design, then the gun can be categorized as a DAO gun. Evidently this is necessary for a number of reasons, not the least of which is allowing the M&P to be more readily accepted by law enforcement agencies.

2. The hump in the sear allows the sear to move back to its full set position if for whatever reason the trigger is released after not being fully engaged. If the sear moved a little bit, but not enough to break the shot, and then the trigger is released, the sear will cam back to is full set position. This allows the trigger weight to not change from shot to shot regardless of how far the sear moved previously.

You can actually see this happen if you look through the back of your gun under the striker cap where the sear and striker engage. Make sure the gun is unloaded, and press the trigger slightly just enough to allow the sear to partially move, and rather than break the shot, release the trigger and you'll see the sear move back to its full seated position ready for a consistent pull the next time the trigger is pressed.

The exception to number 2 is that an extremely rough striker face can prevent the sear from moving back to it full set position if the trigger is released before the striker is dropped. However, this will correct itself over time as the parts smooth out with use.

God Bless,
David
If my understanding is incorrect (as explained above) and the M&P trigger technically only performs one action, then what exactly is the DAO designation based on?
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Old 06-16-2012, 06:39   #42
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When I hear Striker Fired I think of Raven, Davis, Jennings and the other cheap poorly made $125 guns.
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Old 06-16-2012, 06:40   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .38 super View Post
I absolutely agree, I believe I did ask DannyR in his blog about it ( I cannot find the post right now...)


Click-> http://glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=7

Click-> http://glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=426
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Old 06-16-2012, 06:43   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiffums View Post
When I hear Striker Fired I think of Raven, Davis, Jennings and the other cheap poorly made $125 guns.
When I hear 'striker fired' I cringe.....

Guns have firing pins.......'strikers' play soccer, ring bells, and refuse to go to work.

Some firing pins are powered by the impact of a spring loaded hammer, and others, like Glocks, are powered directly by a spring.
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Old 06-16-2012, 06:48   #45
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My observations tell me that the M&P is indeed fully cocked when the slide closes and is single action.

The Glock firing pin is partially cocked when the slide closes and is only fully cocked when the trigger is pulled.....double action.....as designated by the BATFE. The beauty of the Glock safe action is that it is up to the user to decide how he wants to use it.
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Old 06-16-2012, 07:02   #46
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I stand corrected.
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Old 06-16-2012, 08:54   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJ View Post
If my understanding is incorrect (as explained above) and the M&P trigger technically only performs one action, then what exactly is the DAO designation based on?
It's all in the lingo and marketing the gun, I believe this is the case with Glock too...

Quote:
1. If the striker is moved rearward even as slightly as it is in the M&P design, then the gun can be categorized as a DAO gun. Evidently this is necessary for a number of reasons, not the least of which is allowing the M&P to be more readily accepted by law enforcement agencies.
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:09   #48
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Thank you! Your blog is excellent reference material and your posts are always very well structured and explained, I'm glad there are so many people like you here, great place to learn things, also to express opinion, I guess.
I understand the point with the DAO, in fact I have absolutely no problem to go with the manufacturer's designation of the action of the trigger or something else, I was just curious why companies go one time with one explanation ( technical ) than they go with another - subjective, user's interface... It's all for profit after all... Moving the sear thousand of an inch is not enough to designate it as DAO... sounds to me just as the rest of the basically useless stuff as "Positive Sear Engagement" in the 1911 firing group... I don't know, marketing tricks maybe...
Aside from the technical part IMHO we should look at the gun and the action/trigger system as a black box - the use should not care what is the mechanics in the gun, you care only for the trigger, the pull and so on, if it feels as SA - it is SA gun, if it operates as SA - it is SA gun... I don't know, someone to correct me, but Glock operates exactly as a SA gun, actually from what I read the designers were looking for such a hybrid feeling and mechanics...
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:09   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch View Post
My observations tell me that the M&P is indeed fully cocked when the slide closes and is single action.

The Glock firing pin is partially cocked when the slide closes and is only fully cocked when the trigger is pulled.....double action.....as designated by the BATFE. The beauty of the Glock safe action is that it is up to the user to decide how he wants to use it.
Double action only. It's a double action only, not a double action. These two different action types are distinct in their differences.
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Old 06-16-2012, 12:46   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
Gentlemen, the thing that defines the action designation of a handgun is what the trigger's tasks are... what the trigger does to fire the gun. Nothing else. Whether or not the gun uses a striker or a hammer or a combination thereof, makes no difference. It is what the trigger does that defines the action type description. If you keep that in mind, you won't have any problem understanding and referring to the action of a given design.
finally someone who knows what they are talking about....

there is alot horrible information being put on this post....
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Old 09-26-2012, 23:15   #51
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Originally Posted by ron59 View Post
Glock doesn't call their action DAO, but rather "Safe Action". IDPA uses the same terminology. There's a difference.
Negative. The Glock is a locked breach, recoil operated double action only pistol. This is verbatim right from Glock via the armorer's course...
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Old 09-27-2012, 01:31   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyR View Post
The designation has nothing to do with the length of the trigger pull. Since there is no hammer to cock or decock, it is designated DAO.

I just love the sound effects on some TV shows when you hear someone cocking a Glock.

Think in terms of revolvers:

Single Action
SA/DA
DAO
Of course it is not DAO...you have an invisible hammer that you pull down...
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:39   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
Yes,this is technically true. In reality the M&P design, and that of theSpringfield XD series, is a SAO, but S&W classes their M&P line as DAOpistols. Perhaps because there is no such designation of SAO (this is a guesson my part).
My x5 is designated by Sig as SAO and I also agree on your stand about the trigger of the M&P - it is way better than off the box Glock's, especially gens up to 3, gen4 is different, maybe I find it better because I only shot “-“ connectors.


I also agree on the defining the action from what the trigger is doing, but in the case of M&P and XD, manufacturer was intentionally looking for that trigger to “feel” as DA trigger, it was market targeting, so things are not so simple…

There is of course designation based on the mechanical properties of the system (trigger) but generally speaking, the gun should be “black box” a shooter does not have to know how the mechanics work, you feel this by the trigger, it’s a user interface, you designate the trigger by the way you feel it, that’s why (I could be wrong, and actually I’m not looking for discussion, it’s just an opinion…) in regard that Glock does not have a second strike capability as for instance Sig 250, I would say: mechanically it is DA pistol, by user interface, by the way you operate the gun it is SA.
Safe Action for me is just marketing gimmick, that little thing on the trigger is mechanically anything else but safety, there is no probable way of pressing on this trigger, by finger or any otherway, without pressing on the “safety” so IMHO this thing is far from “Safety Action”and there are plenty of cases to support such idea…
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:07   #54
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Defining DAO

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Originally Posted by Z71bill View Post
I always think of a true double action having second strike capability. Anything less is not true double action because it takes an additional separate action to get the gun to fire.

Maybe Glock is "two" action - or 1 1/2 action - but it is not double action.
Agreed, the lack of a second strike precludes it from being a true DAO. If you have a misfire on a Glock, for whatever reason, the slide must be cycled to reset the trigger. I always thought striker fired is a more descriptive phrase.
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