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Old 06-14-2012, 15:36   #26
dpadams6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GasTurbine View Post
I know they categorize it that way because of it longer pull, but the fact is, (besides going thru all the safeties) it preforms just one action...releasing the striker, thus, technically making it an SA gun.

I know that Armslist has "Striker fired" added to their "Action types"...I hope this catches on.
I would think because it pulls the striker back first, then releases it.
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Old 06-14-2012, 15:39   #27
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M&p would be single action because its fully cocked and pulling the triggers rotates the sear, releasing the srtiker. Terrible design, IMHO
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Old 06-14-2012, 17:39   #28
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The trigger on my G26 feels like a single action trigger once the slack is taken up. It's not like a DAO at all as far as I'm concerned. I know that technically it's not an SAO, just saying it feels like one.
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Old 06-15-2012, 07:04   #29
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Gentlemen, the thing that defines the action designation of a handgun is what the trigger's tasks are... what the trigger does to fire the gun. Nothing else. Whether or not the gun uses a striker or a hammer or a combination thereof, makes no difference. It is what the trigger does that defines the action type description. If you keep that in mind, you won't have any problem understanding and referring to the action of a given design.
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Old 06-15-2012, 07:10   #30
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Originally Posted by mrsurfboard View Post
Unlike the SAO M&P, where the striker is 100% cocked and ready to fire.
Yes, this is technically true. In reality the M&P design, and that of the Springfield XD series, is a SAO, but S&W classes their M&P line as DAO pistols. Perhaps because there is no such designation of SAO (this is a guess on my part).
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Old 06-15-2012, 07:15   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpadams6 View Post
M&p would be single action because its fully cocked and pulling the triggers rotates the sear, releasing the srtiker. Terrible design, IMHO
I think it is a good design because it can result in a lighter trigger (think competition and improved accuracy) and a more crisp letoff. The Apex Tactical hard sear returns an almost 1911-like break. Of course, you still have pre-travel but that is necessary in order for the trigger bar cam to disengage the striker block safety... which can also be improved with Apex parts.
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Old 06-15-2012, 08:18   #32
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
I think if is a good design because if can result in a lighter trigger (think competition and improved accuracy) and a more crisp letoff. The Apex Tactical hard sear returns an almost 1911-like break. Of course, you still have pre-travel but that is necessary in order for the trigger bar cam to disengage the striker block safety... which can also be improved with Apex parts.
I have heard good things about the apex. I never really liked the stock sear in not knowing or feeling the reset like a glock. Does the the apex allow knowing/feeling the reset better? I just dont like how the sear kinda "teeters" back/forth on a pin...

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Old 06-15-2012, 08:41   #33
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Action Type refers to what occurs when you pull the trigger.

With a single action firearm (revolver or pistol), the trigger simply releases the hammer or striker. With a double action firearm, the trigger cocks AND releases the hammer or striker. DAO simply refers to a subset of double action in which manual cocking of the hammer is not possible so each trigger pull results in cocking and releasing.

With a Glock and a S&W M&P, the striker is not fully cocked until the trigger is fully pressed, hence both these pistols are double action (only). With an XDm, the striker is fully cocked and trigger press simply releases the striker, making it single action.
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Old 06-15-2012, 09:01   #34
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
Nope. Example is the M&P Smith and Wesson. S&W defines the M&P as a DAO pistol but in reality, the striker is held in a fully cocking position prior to release. The trigger only does one thing; it releases the striker via the sear. It does not cock the striker any more than it is already. I believe the XD series operates this same way.
I absolutely agree, I believe I did ask DannyR in his blog about it ( I cannot find the post right now...) but IMHO we should look at actions in two ways: mechanical properties and user interface... By user interface Glock is SA gun, just as 1911, as much as strange this would look in initially, but if you think, in both mechanics, if you have misfire for any reason, you should operate the slide in order to chamber fresh round...
For me, in regard of the explanations in the previous two posts above, DAO is a self loading gun that will operate the striker with every pull of the trigger lever, regardless of what is the slide doing, same as P250 or for example "double strike capability" of some Taurus models...
BTW, Glock does designates his guns as "DAO" in some of their manuals, especially where they have charts with the models.
In regard of the two other pistols mentioned - the M&P and XD, I read somewhere that the trigger was designed intentionally to mimic long DA pull, even the two guns have the strikers fully cocked by the cycling of the slide...
Mr. Metkalf had a article in one of the S&W magazines, when those models came up, some 3-4 years ago if I'm not mistaking, where he was explaining the way M&P partially cocks the striker, but in the same time, there was a video by the American Gunsmith Association I believe, where you can see that the sear only releases the striker, it is not cocking it additionally... I wrote Mr. Metkalf's an e-mail, asking him to explain why the difference between his article and the video, my only intent was to learn something possibly, unfortunately I never had answer...
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Old 06-15-2012, 13:18   #35
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Originally Posted by dpadams6 View Post
I have heard good things about the apex. I never really liked the stock sear in not knowing or feeling the reset like a glock. Does the the apex allow knowing/feeling the reset better? I just dont like how the sear kinda "teeters" back/forth on a pin...
Yes, there are several kits or individual parts that Apex offers that can improve the reset. I never seem to have a problem with my M&P 9 Pro because I have fired it enough that it is just a natural thing for me where the reset occurs.

What accounts for the more audible and crisp feel of the Glock reset is the connector. The M&P has no such thing.
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Old 06-15-2012, 13:20   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoZman View Post
Action Type refers to what occurs when you pull the trigger.

With a single action firearm (revolver or pistol), the trigger simply releases the hammer or striker. With a double action firearm, the trigger cocks AND releases the hammer or striker. DAO simply refers to a subset of double action in which manual cocking of the hammer is not possible so each trigger pull results in cocking and releasing.

With a Glock and a S&W M&P, the striker is not fully cocked until the trigger is fully pressed, hence both these pistols are double action (only). With an XDm, the striker is fully cocked and trigger press simply releases the striker, making it single action.
True in regards to the Glock design, false for the M&P as was previously noted. With the M&P, the trigger bar does not complete the cocking of the striker because the striker is held in a fully cocked condition by the sear.
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Old 06-15-2012, 13:22   #37
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Originally Posted by .38 super View Post
I absolutely agree, I believe I did ask DannyR in his blog about it ( I cannot find the post right now...) but IMHO we should look at actions in two ways: mechanical properties and user interface... By user interface Glock is SA gun, just as 1911, as much as strange this would look in initially, but if you think, in both mechanics, if you have misfire for any reason, you should operate the slide in order to chamber fresh round...
For me, in regard of the explanations in the previous two posts above, DAO is a self loading gun that will operate the striker with every pull of the trigger lever, regardless of what is the slide doing, same as P250 or for example "double strike capability" of some Taurus models...
BTW, Glock does designates his guns as "DAO" in some of their manuals, especially where they have charts with the models.
In regard of the two other pistols mentioned - the M&P and XD, I read somewhere that the trigger was designed intentionally to mimic long DA pull, even the two guns have the strikers fully cocked by the cycling of the slide...
Mr. Metkalf had a article in one of the S&W magazines, when those models came up, some 3-4 years ago if I'm not mistaking, where he was explaining the way M&P partially cocks the striker, but in the same time, there was a video by the American Gunsmith Association I believe, where you can see that the sear only releases the striker, it is not cocking it additionally... I wrote Mr. Metkalf's an e-mail, asking him to explain why the difference between his article and the video, my only intent was to learn something possibly, unfortunately I never had answer...
With DAO pistols, there are two flavors. Those which do not have a second strike capability and those which do. Most don't and the Glock is one example. The Kel-Tec P11 is a DAO design and does have second strike capability, as does the Ruger LCP.
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Old 06-15-2012, 18:33   #38
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
True in regards to the Glock design, false for the M&P as was previously noted. With the M&P, the trigger bar does not complete the cocking of the striker because the striker is held in a fully cocked condition by the sear.
In the M&P, the striker is moved ever so slightly to the rear as the trigger in pressed and the sear rotates. Even if only a negligible amount (1%, 2%, 3%?) that movement makes it a double action as the trigger press completes the cocking process.
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Old 06-16-2012, 05:41   #39
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
True in regards to the Glock design, false for the M&P as was previously noted. With the M&P, the trigger bar does not complete the cocking of the striker because the striker is held in a fully cocked condition by the sear.
True. I went to m&p armorer school. It is full cocked. Pulling trigger pivots the sear /bar, releasing the striker (that's already cocked). Its weird how a lot of people think different about this. Not sure why. Its pretty basic.

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Old 06-16-2012, 06:14   #40
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Originally Posted by dpadams6 View Post
True. I went to m&p armorer school. It is full cocked. Pulling trigger pivots the sear /bar, releasing the striker (that's already cocked). Its weird how a lot of people think different about this. Not sure why. Its pretty basic.
Yes it is. A little while back I got into a "firm" discussion (not nasty) with a gentleman on a website who believed that the sear moved the striker rearward one or two millimeters before releasing it. So I grabbed my M&P 9 Pro and a high intensity flashlight to closely examine both the sear and the striker lug and the fellow was WAY off base. If there is any movement at all, it would be in the tens of thousandths of an inch; nowhere near one or two millimeters.

When one uses the term DAO, one has to know what that means and why the term was applied to a given design. In my opinion, the two best examples of a DAO pistol would be the Kahr design (striker fired with no second strike capability) and the Kel-Tec P11 (hammer fired with second strike capability).
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Old 06-16-2012, 06:36   #41
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My understanding of the M&P has always been that practically speaking the gun is fully cocked without pulling the trigger but technically it is DAO because there is some modicum of cocking action (although Much less than Glocks) that takes place when the trigger is pulled.... As explained here:http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.ph...666&#entry3666
And here: http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.ph...ao#entry318203
Quote:
Originally Posted by David B.
Practically, the striker is fully cocked i.e., single action mode.

Technically, the gun is considered a double action gun because there is a small (like a few thousandths of an inch) rearward movement of the striker as the trigger is pulled all the way.

Explanation, it all lies in the shape of the sear. S&W has machined a little hump into the top of the sear right where it engages with the striker face. This little hump creates a slight caming effect causing the striker to move rearward very slightly when the sear is engaged enough to allow the striker to fall. However, this rearward movement is not necessary for the gun to fire. So why did S&W build this into the sear design? Two reasons:

1. If the striker is moved rearward even as slightly as it is in the M&P design, then the gun can be categorized as a DAO gun. Evidently this is necessary for a number of reasons, not the least of which is allowing the M&P to be more readily accepted by law enforcement agencies.

2. The hump in the sear allows the sear to move back to its full set position if for whatever reason the trigger is released after not being fully engaged. If the sear moved a little bit, but not enough to break the shot, and then the trigger is released, the sear will cam back to is full set position. This allows the trigger weight to not change from shot to shot regardless of how far the sear moved previously.

You can actually see this happen if you look through the back of your gun under the striker cap where the sear and striker engage. Make sure the gun is unloaded, and press the trigger slightly just enough to allow the sear to partially move, and rather than break the shot, release the trigger and you'll see the sear move back to its full seated position ready for a consistent pull the next time the trigger is pressed.

The exception to number 2 is that an extremely rough striker face can prevent the sear from moving back to it full set position if the trigger is released before the striker is dropped. However, this will correct itself over time as the parts smooth out with use.

God Bless,
David
If my understanding is incorrect (as explained above) and the M&P trigger technically only performs one action, then what exactly is the DAO designation based on?
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Old 06-16-2012, 06:39   #42
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When I hear Striker Fired I think of Raven, Davis, Jennings and the other cheap poorly made $125 guns.
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Old 06-16-2012, 06:40   #43
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I absolutely agree, I believe I did ask DannyR in his blog about it ( I cannot find the post right now...)


Click-> http://glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=7

Click-> http://glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=426
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Old 06-16-2012, 06:43   #44
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When I hear Striker Fired I think of Raven, Davis, Jennings and the other cheap poorly made $125 guns.
When I hear 'striker fired' I cringe.....

Guns have firing pins.......'strikers' play soccer, ring bells, and refuse to go to work.

Some firing pins are powered by the impact of a spring loaded hammer, and others, like Glocks, are powered directly by a spring.
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Old 06-16-2012, 06:48   #45
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My observations tell me that the M&P is indeed fully cocked when the slide closes and is single action.

The Glock firing pin is partially cocked when the slide closes and is only fully cocked when the trigger is pulled.....double action.....as designated by the BATFE. The beauty of the Glock safe action is that it is up to the user to decide how he wants to use it.
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Old 06-16-2012, 07:02   #46
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I stand corrected.
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Old 06-16-2012, 08:54   #47
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If my understanding is incorrect (as explained above) and the M&P trigger technically only performs one action, then what exactly is the DAO designation based on?
It's all in the lingo and marketing the gun, I believe this is the case with Glock too...

Quote:
1. If the striker is moved rearward even as slightly as it is in the M&P design, then the gun can be categorized as a DAO gun. Evidently this is necessary for a number of reasons, not the least of which is allowing the M&P to be more readily accepted by law enforcement agencies.
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:09   #48
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Thank you! Your blog is excellent reference material and your posts are always very well structured and explained, I'm glad there are so many people like you here, great place to learn things, also to express opinion, I guess.
I understand the point with the DAO, in fact I have absolutely no problem to go with the manufacturer's designation of the action of the trigger or something else, I was just curious why companies go one time with one explanation ( technical ) than they go with another - subjective, user's interface... It's all for profit after all... Moving the sear thousand of an inch is not enough to designate it as DAO... sounds to me just as the rest of the basically useless stuff as "Positive Sear Engagement" in the 1911 firing group... I don't know, marketing tricks maybe...
Aside from the technical part IMHO we should look at the gun and the action/trigger system as a black box - the use should not care what is the mechanics in the gun, you care only for the trigger, the pull and so on, if it feels as SA - it is SA gun, if it operates as SA - it is SA gun... I don't know, someone to correct me, but Glock operates exactly as a SA gun, actually from what I read the designers were looking for such a hybrid feeling and mechanics...
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:09   #49
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My observations tell me that the M&P is indeed fully cocked when the slide closes and is single action.

The Glock firing pin is partially cocked when the slide closes and is only fully cocked when the trigger is pulled.....double action.....as designated by the BATFE. The beauty of the Glock safe action is that it is up to the user to decide how he wants to use it.
Double action only. It's a double action only, not a double action. These two different action types are distinct in their differences.
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Old 06-16-2012, 12:46   #50
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Gentlemen, the thing that defines the action designation of a handgun is what the trigger's tasks are... what the trigger does to fire the gun. Nothing else. Whether or not the gun uses a striker or a hammer or a combination thereof, makes no difference. It is what the trigger does that defines the action type description. If you keep that in mind, you won't have any problem understanding and referring to the action of a given design.
finally someone who knows what they are talking about....

there is alot horrible information being put on this post....
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