[WarCry]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...rim-beard?lite

I think the biggest key here is that he was warned a few times that this was going to be the result. He made his bed....

[Patchman]

The NYPD academy is six or seven months long. So one month before graduation he comes out and says, oh BTW, I'm going to stop shaving because it's against my religion? So for his next 20 years what's he going to do, never shave once? And complain that I can't work here or I can't work there because a lot of the neighborhood women dress too immodestly, which offends me religiously?

What happens should he end up arresting an Arab or Muslim? I can already hear the defense attorney turning the arrest into an anti-Arab or Anti-Muslim thing...

Wait, are the police in Israel clean shaven? IIRC, in every photo I've seen, they are. WTF?

[Sam Spade]

"They didn't give me anything," Litzman said, explaining to the paper that the police department did not offer an explicit reason for his firing. "I don't understand what the problem would be."


The probationary employee failed to complete the term of his probation. Next.

[AA_Khost]

IIRC the NYPD allows Sikhs to wear beards? Or is that not allowed anymore?

[Patchman]

Originally Posted by AA_Khost

IIRC the NYPD allows Sikhs to wear beards? Or is that not allowed anymore?

I thought it was turbans. And IIRC, they were non-sworn members (ie civilian employees) of the NYPD.

[Rabbi]

Originally Posted by Patchman

Wait, are the police in Israel clean shaven? IIRC, in every photo I've seen, they are. WTF?

For an FYI, being in Israel has nothing to do with being an Orthodox Jew. Most Jews in Israel (just like in the US and everywhere else) trend secular. Such people would have no religious issues with being clean shaven.

Having said that, the Orthodox Jews in Israel who are Police/Military can (and do) have long beards. There are not a lot of them though. It isnt really a line of work the orthodox seek out. It creates too many religious problems.

Here is an example of non clean shaven Israeli Police.



I dont know what is going on here other than there are a handful of Orthodox Jews already on NYPD. I do not know any of the details of their beard issues. There are a few agencies around NYC that have a few "full blown" Hassidic Jews as Officers.

I can think of at least one agency in TEXAS! that has an Orthodox Jew as a fully sworn Officer. Of course, I follow all regulations and am not very observant these days.

[FL Airedale]

Maybe he can take that training to a suburban department that doesn't have a rule against beards.

[aviator0402]

Originally Posted by Patchman

The NYPD academy is six or seven months long. So one month before graduation he comes out and says, oh BTW, I'm going to stop shaving because it's against my religion? So for his next 20 years what's he going to do, never shave once? And complain that I can't work here or I can't work there because a lot of the neighborhood women dress too immodestly, which offends me religiously?

What happens should he end up arresting an Arab or Muslim? I can already hear the defense attorney turning the arrest into an anti-Arab or Anti-Muslim thing...

Wait, are the police in Israel clean shaven? IIRC, in every photo I've seen, they are. WTF?

The way I read the story he had the beard the hole time.

[AA_Khost]

Originally Posted by Patchman

I thought it was turbans. And IIRC, they were non-sworn members (ie civilian employees) of the NYPD.

http://www.apaforprogress.org/new-la...articles-faith

[Rabbi]

Originally Posted by aviator0402

The way I read the story he had the beard the hole time.

Yeah, the way the story is going around, he has had the beard the whole time.

[Patchman]

Originally Posted by aviator0402

The way I read the story he had the beard the hole time.

Yes, that's correct in that he did have a beard the whole time. One article I read stated that there are approximately 2 dozen orthodox Jews as NYPD cops, and they are all required to (and apparently have managed to) keep their beards "trimmed."

In this case, the article says he's saying he's forbidden to trim his beard in any way (last paragraph in news article). That implies a looooong time.

The photo in the article is what he looks like now (after 6 months). Fast forward 6 years or 16 years.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1092880

[ChiefWPD]

As a twenty year (Jewish) veteran of the NYPD I'm not very sympathetic with this guy's issues. I think he was being cute and they cut him loose.

This falls under the same type of hubris as women wearing the full face covering burka wanting to have their photo on their drivers license showing them with their face covered. Bulls*^t!

But then, I'm just an old curmudgeon.

Oh, and the reason they didn't give him a reason for his termination is that he is a probationairy police officer. They don't have to give you a reason for termination and it's in the dept's best interest not to.

[RocPO]

The NYPD allows religious beards up to a certain length, and requires them to be neatly trimmed. This nonsense of having to bend standards to accommodate people is getting unreal. There's a standard. You either adapt to it or find another job. There is no reason the job should have to adapt to your beliefs. I'm Catholic. I have never heard of a PD giving its Catholic officers religious holidays off.

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[Rabbi]

Originally Posted by RocPO

This nonsense of having to bend standards to accommodate people is getting unreal. There's a standard. You either adapt to it or find another job.

In some cases I dont agree with this.

We have to ask, "what is the source and reason for the standard?"

If the standard was set up to unreasonably benefit a group of people on purpose...or unreasonably benefits a group of people by default....it needs to be revisited.

For example, at one time there were a lot of standards for various things that were obviously biased (such as "White males only...) I would advise people that some vestiges of that remain veiled in "standards" that unresonably benefit a group of people. (they are culturally biased). Seriously, some standards for all kinds of things can represent a defacto ban on people of various backgrounds.

[The Fist Of Goodness]

For an FYI, being in Israel has nothing to do with being an Orthodox Jew. Most Jews in Israel (just like in the US and everywhere else) trend secular. Such people would have no religious issues with being clean shaven.

Having said that, the Orthodox Jews in Israel who are Police/Military can (and do) have long beards. There are not a lot of them though. It isnt really a line of work the orthodox seek out. It creates too many religious problems.

Here is an example of non clean shaven Israeli Police.



I dont know what is going on here other than there are a handful of Orthodox Jews already on NYPD. I do not know any of the details of their beard issues. There are a few agencies around NYC that have a few "full blown" Hassidic Jews as Officers.

I can think of at least one agency in TEXAS! that has an Orthodox Jew as a fully sworn Officer. Of course, I follow all regulations and am not very observant these days.

This is only slightly related to this topic, but one of the strangest things I have seen (at least in NYC).

I once observed a rally in Bensonhurst where a Rabbi caravanned @ 100 RVs to ground zero. The security force that went with them consisted of Hasidic Jewish men in the traditional garb, beards, and curls, riding in minivans with the sliding doors locked open. In each door was a guy with an Uzi. They reminded me of the door gunners in Hueys in footage from Vietnam.

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[2-8 Marine]

During my 35 plus year tenure with various Military and Civilian Police Agencies, I've kept my hair relatively short and NEVER even considered wearing a beard of any length much less a full beard. I've always presumed there's way too many ways for someone to grab on to you, your clothing or equipment without presenting them a handful of hair or beard. But, that's just me. I understand the religious thing with the beard and all but I believe if my religion mandated a long beard or hair, I'd pick a more friendly profession. That's just my 2 cents.

[Patchman]

Originally Posted by 2-8 Marine

I understand the religious thing with the beard and all but I believe if my religion mandated a long beard or hair, I'd pick a more friendly profession.

^^^ To me, this is the crux of the issue.

Where I'm at, there are a lot of delis and luncheonettes owned and operated by Arabs/Muslims. I'll stop in these places to hear the latest gossip and also order a bacon and egg on a roll or a ham and swiss (and every once in a while a liverwurst with raw onions and mustard). In any case, the point is the owners either hire Mexican cooks or employ family members who get religious dispensations to handle pork products.

My point is, before they enter the game, they find ways to deals with the issues.

[merlynusn]

What's always been my issue with the beard thing is that if the department/agency states the reason is because you need to wear a gas mask, etc, then that means that NO ONE should be able to have a beard. If that is not a valid reason, then I'd love to have a neatly trimmed beard.

There is either a standard or not. Technically, my religion says I am supposed to have certain days off. But that isn't really an option. I either find a job that allows me to take them off or I get the job I want and work their schedule.

Same thing, if a police department says the standard is no beards, then the standard is no beards. If this guy is saying he can't trim his beard because of his religion, then that means he is supposed to have certain days off too. If he acquiesces to working the schedule, then obviously there is wiggle room in his interpretation and following of his religion. If there is wiggle room with the schedule, why not with the beard?

[samurairabbi]

Permit me to supplement other comments about beards in the Israeli military and police.

If you want to have a beard, you must commit to KEEPING the beard for a full year. If you are not willing to commit to keeping the beard for a year, you will not be allowed to keep it. If you change your mind about the beard because it itches, you are still stuck with that commitment.

There are select jobs in the Isreali military that having a beard will preclude someone from holding.

[4949shooter]

Originally Posted by ChiefWPD

Oh, and the reason they didn't give him a reason for his termination is that he is a probationairy police officer. They don't have to give you a reason for termination and it's in the dept's best interest not to.

Bingo.

And if he didn't want to play by the rules, he shouldn't have applied to NYPD.

[samurairabbi]

Originally Posted by 4949shooter

And if he didn't want to play by the rules, he shouldn't have applied to NYPD.

If he was not playing by the rules, how did he get accepted into the NYPD class in the first place?

[Morris]

As a twenty year (Jewish) veteran of the NYPD I'm not very sympathetic with this guy's issues. I think he was being cute and they cut him loose.

I'll say it: there is more to this story. You don't complete the majority of your academy days only to fine religion at the end.

I'm glad my agency has the solid line of, "If you don't agree with our grooming standards, you won't work here."

[Patchman]

Originally Posted by samurairabbi

If he was not playing by the rules, how did he get accepted into the NYPD class in the first place?

I know nothing about this case except the one or two articles I read. But if I were to venture a guess, I'd say when the NYPD told him about their requirement to keep his beard "trimmed," he yessed them to death.


Just guessing.

[Hack]

Originally Posted by Patchman

The NYPD academy is six or seven months long. So one month before graduation he comes out and says, oh BTW, I'm going to stop shaving because it's against my religion? So for his next 20 years what's he going to do, never shave once? And complain that I can't work here or I can't work there because a lot of the neighborhood women dress too immodestly, which offends me religiously?

What happens should he end up arresting an Arab or Muslim? I can already hear the defense attorney turning the arrest into an anti-Arab or Anti-Muslim thing...

Wait, are the police in Israel clean shaven? IIRC, in every photo I've seen, they are. WTF?

Actually no, and the same goes for the military. It depends on what religious sect that they are a part of.

[Stang_Man]

I'm in a different academy right now, and we're required to shave/have zero facial hair.

People have gotten written up for it, these count against your final grade and CAN get you kicked out.