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Old 06-08-2012, 18:26   #1
DonGlock26
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Stopping Power and War

I'm watching "The Pacific" mini-series by HBO (excellent) and stumbled across this eyewitness account of a Japanese soldier shot many, many times with small arms fire as he attempted to close with the Marines.


2:58

To me, it kind of puts stopping power in perspective. If you face a truly determined foe, you may need multiple hits until you hit the CNS. Even the heart is iffy for a while. Food for thought.



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Old 06-08-2012, 18:28   #2
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I have heard of duct taped and drugged VC fighters taking huge amounts of lead.
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Old 06-08-2012, 18:38   #3
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Go read some accounts what people did to earn Medal of Honors.
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Old 06-08-2012, 18:44   #4
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Agreed......though it's only fair to point out your average thug isn't likely as committed as the battle crazed, starved, delusional Japanese soldier with literally nothing to lose.
Still, anything's possible and anyone worth shooting is worth shooting 'well'.
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Old 06-08-2012, 19:07   #5
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Happened earlier in history . The Philippines ,the US Army had this super new pistol,Colt double action in 38 cal. . They weren't working to well against drugged up warriors so the Colt SAA were pressed back into service,the 45 colt performed better after all it was originally used to put horses down.
For more information


http://mandirigma.org/?p=889
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Old 06-08-2012, 19:37   #6
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Our military uses FMJ ammo. If they used Gold Dots, they'd have better stopping power. Hollowpoints do violate a treaty.

I just don't understand such rules in war. Isn't that kind of like getting in a street fight and discussing rules first?
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Old 06-08-2012, 22:51   #7
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Old 06-08-2012, 23:39   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonGlock26 View Post
I'm watching "The Pacific" mini-series by HBO (excellent) and stumbled across this eyewitness account of a Japanese soldier shot many, many times with small arms fire as he attempted to close with the Marines.

To me, it kind of puts stopping power in perspective. If you face a truly determined foe, you may need multiple hits until you hit the CNS. Even the heart is iffy for a while. Food for thought.
Definitely food for thought. But I believe there is a bigger picture to look at this from.

Somehow some people over most others cheat specific, normally deadly or incapacitating, experiences, either completely, or for more time than is normally expected.

Most people die after being struck by lightning. Some, after even multiple strikes over time, don't.

Being immersed in truly frigid water for some amount of time will put most people into hypothermia, eventually killing them. Other seem to be able to shrug it off for far too long than we would normally expect.

Excessive heat will give most people heat stroke in whatever amount of time. Some people break the rules and endure the heat others didn't, at least for longer than would be thought possible.

And then there are shootings like you brought up.

In self defense, when it comes to stopping a "determined" adversary, it's all about planning for the worst and hoping for the best within the parameters capable at the time. If things go as one would hope, some foes succumb in one way or another fairly quickly, where others seem more machine than human.

Like you said; "If you face a truly determined foe, you may need multiple hits until you hit the CNS." I agree. And then there are other aspects we can control for a hopeful best outcome depending on each individuals belief of what can or won't help, including things like:

1) Choosing JHP over FMJ.

2) Practicing proficiency with whatever weapon is chosen.

3) Choose the most powerful load that is still practical.

4) Carry as much ammo as practical.

And so on.

A little luck never hurts either. Though that isn't so easily controlled.
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Old 06-09-2012, 00:08   #9
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Somebody asked me once why my "truck gun" was a Marlin in 45/70? I told him "well if I have to stop the truck, get out and shoot something....I'd like it to stay shot"

Just a little FWIW.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:35   #10
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If they had a 10mm back then, the war would have been over with one shot!

10MM....One shot..... One war!

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Old 06-09-2012, 18:29   #11
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War: wound your enemy, and you take out 3 soldiers- the one wounded, and 2 to carry him.

Kill him and the other 2 will be trying to get you. (at least, so I hear.)

On the street you probably won't have your squad to back you up.
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Old 06-09-2012, 20:32   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FL Airedale View Post
Our military uses FMJ ammo. If they used Gold Dots, they'd have better stopping power. Hollowpoints do violate a treaty.

I just don't understand such rules in war. Isn't that kind of like getting in a street fight and discussing rules first?
The Hague Convention of 1899 Declaration III basically banned the HP bullets for wartime however modern bullet design is starting to skirt around the "rules". http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp

As far as I am concerned the only rules of war are that THERE ARE NO RULES. I would have told them to stick their treaty up their ass. So many people in Europe thought you control everything with rules and regs although that setiment has since spread throughout the world including here in the states.

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Old 06-09-2012, 21:49   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkf View Post
The Hague Convention of 1899 Declaration III basically banned the HP bullets for wartime however modern bullet design is starting to skirt around the "rules". http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp

As far as I am concerned the only rules of war are that THERE ARE NO RULES. I would have told them to stick their treaty up their ass. So many people in Europe thought you control everything with rules and regs although that setiment has since spread throughout the world including here in the states.
I have always wondered why we don't junk the Hauge Convention. Fight to win. There are other treaties that try to cover the rules of war, and we ignore them, such as the ban on use of incindieries. We stockpile nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons, and will burn enemy cities to the ground, but ban bullets that work.
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Old 06-10-2012, 10:38   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
If they had a 10mm back then, the war would have been over with one shot!

10MM....One shot..... One war!

So true... if you shoot a platoon leader with a 10mm, the rest of the platoon dies as well...
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:11   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonGlock26 View Post
I'm watching "The Pacific" mini-series by HBO (excellent) and stumbled across this eyewitness account of a Japanese soldier shot many, many times with small arms fire as he attempted to close with the Marines.

The Pacific: Anatomy of a War (HBO) - YouTube

2:58

To me, it kind of puts stopping power in perspective. If you face a truly determined foe, you may need multiple hits until you hit the CNS. Even the heart is iffy for a while. Food for thought.



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Of all enemies we fought in WWII, the Japanese were an anomaly. The average German or Italian soldier did not want to fight any more than anyone else, and in most cases did not have a problem surrendering to American troops if in a hopeless situation. The Japanese, on the other hand, were more likely to shoot until they ran out of ammo and either charge with a knife or hug a live grenade rather than surrender. Fighting an enemy that believes in their cause that greatly put another layer of horror into play for troops in the Pacific theatre. The Japanese were certainly one of the best modern equivalents of what it would have been like to fight the Spartans or Vikings in their days.

These are a people who were developing suicide scuba divers in the event of an invasion on the Japanese mainland... Their goal would have been to get beside a ship and blow themselves up.
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:26   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADK_40GLKr View Post
War: wound your enemy, and you take out 3 soldiers- the one wounded, and 2 to carry him.

Kill him and the other 2 will be trying to get you. (at least, so I hear.)
Wives' tale.

Soldiers are trained to finish the fight then take care of wounded. Medics, if available, will work on the wounded before the fight is over.
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Old 06-10-2012, 19:09   #17
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Old 06-10-2012, 19:30   #18
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I like the part where the jap had the top half of his skull blown off and that gi is tossing pebbles into it to pass the time.... That's a great series. I liked it more than Band of Brothers.
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Old 06-10-2012, 19:50   #19
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Originally Posted by Jeff82 View Post
Wives' tale.

Soldiers are trained to finish the fight then take care of wounded. Medics, if available, will work on the wounded before the fight is over.
. Then they come back to shoot and fight later with all the learning from having been blowned up or shot in the first place. (Hopefully they learned something anyways. Sometimes it's just poor luck.)
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Old 06-10-2012, 20:51   #20
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I find it absurd that our military leaders feel they still have to follow the Hague Convention and ban JHP ammo in war while Obama sits in his big office playing God deciding on whom to assassinate next using drones. Isn't there a bit of hypocrisy in this? I'd say, let's give our men and women in uniform the best ammo with best stopping power, so they can come home alive.
And the guy the drone strike killed was a US citizen. Don't get me wrong the guy was a POS but I have a problem with sneaking into a country and executing a citizen of our country. Now they want to fly drones over US soil.

Google Roufoss Mk211. It is a .50cal round that can go through a block wall at over a 1 mile away and make hamburger out of anyone or anything on the other side. It make a .500sw JHP look like a BB gun.

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