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Old 07-31-2012, 17:42   #121
dpadams6
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Originally Posted by agb View Post
Missing the point. There isn't a quality handgun out there that is designed with rattling slides and barrels that won't fit the slide tightly. Loose suspensions in cars don't work, they don't work in watches, or in cylinders and crankshafts in cars.

Loose tolerances do not mean that a mechanical object won't work. Obviously they do in Glocks and other machines. It's just that these machines are generally cheap to make and are often made by unskilled low-paid workers.

Accordingly, the Glocks and AKs are relatively inexpensive weapons that can be copied across the globe - and they are.

Sir, you just may have to get used to the idea that quality costs and lack of quality costs less.
I realize that quality costs and have no doubt that hk is top quality. I simply do not know much about them, so its interesting to pick your brain. I am a glock and sig armorer and have taken both apart hundreds of times. And quality wise, I will admit that it is not even close when you compare the two. The sigs are simply better quality. But you cant discount that those damn cheap glocks simply shoot under most conditions. I know you have had trouble with yours, but short of my 10mm(whole other topic) all my glocks have NEVER malfunctioned. If you have taken one apart, there really is not much to them to break or go wrong. They are a very basic/simple design with not many parts. Again, I don't know anything about the hk, but am intrigued by there quality everyone talks about and you may be convincing me to at least buy and try one.
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Old 07-31-2012, 20:17   #122
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I realize that quality costs and have no doubt that hk is top quality. I simply do not know much about them, so its interesting to pick your brain. I am a glock and sig armorer and have taken both apart hundreds of times. And quality wise, I will admit that it is not even close when you compare the two. The sigs are simply better quality. But you cant discount that those damn cheap glocks simply shoot under most conditions. I know you have had trouble with yours, but short of my 10mm(whole other topic) all my glocks have NEVER malfunctioned. If you have taken one apart, there really is not much to them to break or go wrong. They are a very basic/simple design with not many parts. Again, I don't know anything about the hk, but am intrigued by there quality everyone talks about and you may be convincing me to at least buy and try one.
Well, you don't need to buy one to try one. Maybe one of your customers or friends can lend you theirs, or a range that has loaners? Though loaners are often shot out and abused.

Look, for most people it's a moot issue. Most Glocks do work, they do the job. Most LEOs never expect to use their guns and expect whatever is issued to them to work. And most often the guns do work. PDs save tons of money on buying caseloads of Glocks, part kits and easy training of armorers.

Aside that fact, certain organizations that have very high standards would prefer another make for the aforementioned reasons. The higher standard itself.

For most civilians who care, what matters is that we have our lives and our family's welfare on the line. If you use a Timex, fine, it tells the time as well as a Rolex - often better. But if you dive for a living, you'll likely use a Rolex, not a Timex.

The same for a SOCOM soldier or an air marshal. There's too much at stake to second guess on less than the best. These guys will demand the better firearm and often they do get it.

Whatever, good luck with your experiment, let us know your impressions after having a go with an HK.
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Old 08-01-2012, 00:33   #123
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HK puts out a product that uses quality materials, extensive testing, and stringent quality controls. Further, they do it very consistently.

So do a lot of other manufacturers. But HK goes a little higher quality. A little more stringent on the quality controls. A little more testing. A little more consistently.

You pay for that. For many, it's worth the price.

That's about it. They aren't magical, or forged with mythical steel. They're just a very good product executed very well.
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Old 08-01-2012, 17:17   #124
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Actually they use some magical steel and magical polymer. I heard, and this may be rumor no one will support, that the barrels are reprocessed steel from WWII tank cannons. It is aged and cured and I hope they used smoked bacon to cure it. The HK magic is not only in its fabrication, but extraordinary understanding of physics in the design. Once that's done Wright, Reverend, the rest is a cake walk. Notice that the basic frame and mechanics do not change. HOPE changes. They perfect what they have already created almost perfect, backed by more than a half century designing machine guns, and that's that.

A side thought that doesn't belong here. I've posted a few comments on the Beretta NANO threads, a most amazing - and reliable - little pistol that, given it's striker fired, is made with a very similar level of quality and advanced thinking as HK's - the last is most important. Not only is the Nano a rare incidence of bulletproof overengineering, but one of underpricing for the level of quality one can see inside this little gem. With three fingers the small pistol is harder to shoot of course, but it is intended for concealed carry. It is built for battle however, military standards - easily!

The factory has tested the pistol with 1000 rounds, degreased and with NO lubrication and with no failures. The reported failures from the usual limp-wristed sour grapes are mostly hype and from those having shot cheap aluminum "brass." The more I use it, the more I respect Beretta's genius having designed this fine pistol that HK could have made because they could and didn't; and Glock failed to make because they couldn't.

The competition? Well yes, The Kimber Solo needs to replace recoil springs every 500-1000 rounds, the defect "discovered" after the pistol went to market - a fatal flaw - er, an OVERPRICED fatal flaw; the Kahr PM-9 is long in the tooth, pathetically unreliable as the NYC PD no longer allows LEOs to use them; the almost great S&W Shield drops magazines out of the well as regularly as clockwork (and it is larger than the rest.) And so on.

A couple of You Tubes on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=VXxpkM7q_2E

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Last edited by agb; 08-01-2012 at 17:20..
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Old 08-01-2012, 18:41   #125
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The thing with Kahr and the NYPD had nothing to do with reliability.

Nano has problems with some ammo. Never heard of that with Shields or Kahrs.


Where are the extended mags for the Nano?

Last edited by cowboy1964; 08-01-2012 at 18:48..
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Old 08-01-2012, 19:02   #126
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I have a USP 45, not an HK45

I might sell a Glock to buy an HK45, though...
USP .45 is what got me into HK aloong time ago. But here is a pic. of my HK45 to get you thru..ride's in a Milt Spark's VMII,


Heckler & Koch Forum
By deehkman at 2012-05-18
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Old 08-01-2012, 19:11   #127
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are hk's really superior?
yep!!
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Old 08-01-2012, 19:32   #128
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The thing with Kahr and the NYPD had nothing to do with reliability.

Nano has problems with some ammo. Never heard of that with Shields or Kahrs.

Beretta Nano Recomended Ammo - YouTube

Where are the extended mags for the Nano?

You are alone not hearing about it.

Very early production Nanos had problems with light load practice ammo. After March production went out, no more problems even with practice ammo.

The removal of the Kahr PM9 had EVERYTHING to do with a lack of reliability AND other issues; later models have less of it, still the NYPD recommends other weapons for their backups. The later Kahr issue was with a trigger problem. Earlier reports had jamming, FTF, stove pipes, other issues.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-205077.html

Whatever, if you never hear of anything doesn't mean that others never hear of anything. We do and we report it as we see it.

The Kahr is a nice pistol that was an original in its time the same way the NANO is an original in our time with 20 years of evolution to back it and the experience of a 500 year old company to guarantee it. Of course, I sold my Kahr PM9 after the trigger spring broke, the gun jammed several times, and assembly and disassembly became more pain than pleasure. I'm not a masochist.

One of my fav companies is Smith&Wesson, I own the BG380 and use it as a backup. My favorite backup. Many reports suggest the Shield drops magazines for no other reason than it wants to.

The Beretta NANO has a large dimple and other magazine enhancements that make dropping out impossible. Moreover, the NANO is entirely reliable, as the video below proves.

If there's a FTF, consider its your fault. I fired 180 or so 115 grains after having degreased the pistol out of the box, no lube, my first shot FTFd because I limp-wristed the pistol and it was just out of the box - using cheap aluminum ammo.

After that not a single failure and after that I shot two more boxes of DPX that printed at 3" at 15 feet...while I was exhausted from a short sleep night.

Enjoy your Kahr, the rest of us will enjoy our 20 year newer design and far better engineered and built Nanos.

Watch here how many failures the Nano has:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=VXxpkM7q_2E
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Old 08-01-2012, 19:56   #129
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I'm yet to see anything that disputes that fact. No other polymer gun has a thing on HK. HK is the best poly gun on the market period. All others take a back seat!

What can a hk do that a glock cannot do in a civilian environment for ccw purposes?

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Old 08-01-2012, 20:05   #130
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What can a hk do that a glock cannot do in a civilian environment for ccw purposes?
Have double strike capability.

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Old 08-02-2012, 04:10   #131
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What can a hk do that a glock cannot do in a civilian environment for ccw purposes?

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Some of us prefer a single action trigger.
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Old 08-02-2012, 10:39   #132
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What can a hk do that a glock cannot do in a civilian environment for ccw purposes?

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Um, well the HK doesn't spit rounds at the user, which is something that the Glock tends to do as of late.
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Old 08-02-2012, 14:52   #133
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I own any number of handguns -- among them the P30 and Glock 19. Those, out of the two lineups, are about as close as they get for size. The Glock runs and does a great job. The P30 ended up with me because of the ergonomics. It's that simple. It is the best feeling gun I've ever owned. It mates with my hand perfectly. It's trigger is like dragging a tractor trailer through the mud in double action, but single action is quite nice. And, even with that long, awful DA pull, the gun still spits the bullet out and plasters those 8" steel plates well.

I will always sell more Glocks than HKs, but when I put a P30 in a customer's hand, the response is always the same -- they can feel the difference. People that have not shot before and are untainted by branding can FEEL the difference. Now, for reliability, shootability, and everything else... I don't have statistics for that, but I've never, personally, had either one give me trouble.

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Old 08-02-2012, 16:24   #134
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Some of us prefer a single action trigger.
usp series and hk45/45c, variant 9, cocked and locked.

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Old 08-02-2012, 17:49   #135
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What can a hk do that a glock cannot do in a civilian environment for ccw purposes?

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Have the ability to get a heavy glove (not some sort of "namby-pamby" 20-30 degrees but 20-30 degrees BELOW zero degrees) freely into the trigger without causing an ND and allow the trigger to reset. I'm pretty sure I mentioned that already but you must have missed it, eh?
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Old 08-05-2012, 08:34   #136
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No. No they are not.
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Old 08-05-2012, 16:59   #137
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No. No they are not.
Yes. Yes they are.


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Old 08-05-2012, 17:08   #138
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No. No they are not.
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Yes. Yes they are.


Nothing like lucid, intelligent, well thought-out debate.
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Old 08-05-2012, 19:20   #139
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I don't know yet, but a P2000 is on my short list.
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Old 08-05-2012, 20:01   #140
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Yes. Yes they are.


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Yes. yes i agree!!..........
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