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Old 07-29-2012, 09:12   #101
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EVERYONE. LISTEN UP AND WATCH THIS VIDEO TO THE END. IT REALLY IS SHOCKING AND I'M NO FAN OF ALEX JONES. BUT THIS TOO WAS REPORTED IN FORBES.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyfk...ayer_embedded#!


Fake, fake, fake.

My side hurt from laughing at that ridiculous video.......
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Old 07-29-2012, 13:51   #102
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God knows that all those Government agencies, foreign militaries, countless law enforcement agencies and private owners are all wrong. I guess I should sell all my junk sub standard HK's and Go back to those high quality superior Glocks.



Until I see it with my own eyes, I'm not taking anyone's word for anything. I had a USP 45 compact get stomped into the mud by a loaded 18 wheeler and it still fired fine. It was full of mud, grit, water, you name it.

I didn't even have to wash it off with Koolaid to make it work again.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1374614
I would think that there are far more glock handguns around the world then h&k. Especially here in th US.
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Old 07-29-2012, 14:27   #103
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Yes, but quanity does not always equate to quality. No, it wouldn't surprise me if there are more Glocks than HKs but that also goes back over to pricing and what kind of deals can be made. The Sig P226 won out over the Beretta 92 as the replacement for the .45 based on this much the same way Glock made low cost deals to law enforcement departments that seen the Glock as a viable firearm at a lower price than the competitors. Another way to look at it if you're a car guy is that both a Ford Escort and a Porsche will get you from point A to B. The Escort of course will cost a lot less and you will see many more of them especially here in the US than the Porsche but does that make it the superior car?
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Old 07-29-2012, 19:10   #104
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Alex Jones all BS...

REMOVED VIDEO. BS meter blew up in my face. Thank you all.
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Old 07-29-2012, 19:13   #105
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Agreed, absolute nonsense. The facts can be found here:

http://acsbore.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/acs-bs.gif
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Old 07-29-2012, 19:35   #106
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Hk may be best in QUALITY. But for a true combat gun, I think reliability is of utmost importance. Sorry, but I have yet to see a handgun go thru what glocks do and still go bang. No one can deny they have fewer moving parts and less things to go wrong.
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Old 07-29-2012, 20:14   #107
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Oh well...the facts Sir...

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Originally Posted by dpadams6 View Post
Hk may be best in QUALITY. But for a true combat gun, I think reliability is of utmost importance. Sorry, but I have yet to see a handgun go thru what glocks do and still go bang. No one can deny they have fewer moving parts and less things to go wrong.
US SOCOM tested the Glocks v HK which met the new combat requirements for the next generation. HK built the firearm to the new specs. Glocks did not survive. SOCOM meant to adopt the HK but funding from Congress stopped. They still have many HKs in service and they think highest of them. The new HK 45 and 45c's were based on the SOCOM HK.

Earlier DHS ordered the largest procurement of sidearms for air marshals and the secret service. 3 million rounds, the most stringent firearms test in history, 65,000 small arms were purchased. HK won, a SIG model came in second, GLOCK died early in the tests.

I've owned three GLOCKS. Two HKs. Kept the HKs sold the Glocks. The Glocks don't support the cartridge fully, there's deformaton and other issues I won't go into here.
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Old 07-30-2012, 06:38   #108
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US SOCOM tested the Glocks v HK which met the new combat requirements for the next generation. HK built the firearm to the new specs. Glocks did not survive. SOCOM meant to adopt the HK but funding from Congress stopped. They still have many HKs in service and they think highest of them. The new HK 45 and 45c's were based on the SOCOM HK.

Earlier DHS ordered the largest procurement of sidearms for air marshals and the secret service. 3 million rounds, the most stringent firearms test in history, 65,000 small arms were purchased. HK won, a SIG model came in second, GLOCK died early in the tests.

I've owned three GLOCKS. Two HKs. Kept the HKs sold the Glocks. The Glocks don't support the cartridge fully, there's deformaton and other issues I won't go into here.
Secret service and air marshals carry the sig p229, don't they?
Less chamber support makes a gun more reliable in feeding? Glocks were not made for shooting reloads.
Not knocking the hk's. I think they are very good quality just like the sig. But there is a reason for the less chamber support and loose tolerances in the glock. Made for combat and be reliable.
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Old 07-30-2012, 08:14   #109
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Secret service and air marshals carry the sig p229, don't they?
Less chamber support makes a gun more reliable in feeding? Glocks were not made for shooting reloads.
Not knocking the hk's. I think they are very good quality just like the sig. But there is a reason for the less chamber support and loose tolerances in the glock. Made for combat and be reliable.
Indeed Sir, there are reasons for loose tolerances, and reliability is not one of them. Neither the HKs, SIGs, nor the new Beretta Nano, have loose tolerances. Surely you would agree that none of those manufacturers deliberately design firearms for low reliability?

The reasons for loose tolerances, as in any mechanical device known to man, auto engines, fine wristwatches, good pocket knives, optics and cameras, is LOW COST. Tight tolerances and better materials COST MONEY. Ask the Ferrari factory or Rolex.

Ergo, tight tolerances and other material or advanced physical features translate into expense.

Insofar as the SIGs are concerned, I have had a few and just returned from Berlin where the SWAT assigned to Checkpoint Charlie was issued older German/Swiss Sigs. They are VERY disappointed with the so-called better (non-American made) Sigs. I personally was disappointed with the American made SIGs I had owned.

SIG qualified for air-marshal use AFTER HK had qualified FIRST - and that afterthought qualification I understand was achieved through political connections, not for quality (see Sig's website for the P238 which has failed safety levers. Not a good thing in a SA pocket pistol, eh?) Under no circumstances would I rate the SIG along with the HK in material or design quality, but I would rate it higher than most of the competition. The German SWAT would not - they would love to have their bosses issue the German made - and very expensive - HK P2000 and 45c. That's what they had told me just two weeks ago. I trust former German spec ops troops for their opinions.

I can say this: I want a firearm to work out of the box. Period. I don't want a manufacturer to tell me that I need to break it in with 300-500 rounds of defense ammo at $36/box - I use Corbon's DPX or Hornady''s critical defense rounds.

The HK's, and I had several, ALWAYS worked out of the box with NO FTF issues. So has the Beretta Nano. My three Glocks did not. I saw deformed cases, sometimes the primer didn't ignite at all, not a single one of the Glocks had double strike ability, and every one of the HKs did - and that is why (among many other reasons) the later are true combat pistols and the the former can never become combat pistols. That is why - among many other reasons aforementioned - DHS chose HK and not the Glock.

People reading this have to realize this: quality costs money. The price of Glock is what it is because of its level of quality. The reasons many PDs don't issue serious firearms is because they don't have the money; don't WANT to spend the money; because it's "good enough"; and because most LEOs are not gun people who give a damn.
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Old 07-30-2012, 19:50   #110
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For those who have seen the light, no explanation is necessary.

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Old 07-30-2012, 19:54   #111
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After reading various threads and some different forums, I set out this week to hunt down a HK 45.

I found an HK45 with SLR2 Laser/Light. Trading my M&P 15 for it.

I'll let you know how it shoots compared to my Glock 29sf, G20, G19, G17, G30, G22

Hoping it lives up to the hype, if so, I maybe swapped my EDC from a G29SF to a HK45c.
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Old 07-31-2012, 08:41   #112
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Indeed Sir, there are reasons for loose tolerances, and reliability is not one of them. Neither the HKs, SIGs, nor the new Beretta Nano, have loose tolerances. Surely you would agree that none of those manufacturers deliberately design firearms for low reliability?

The reasons for loose tolerances, as in any mechanical device known to man, auto engines, fine wristwatches, good pocket knives, optics and cameras, is LOW COST. Tight tolerances and better materials COST MONEY. Ask the Ferrari factory or Rolex.

Ergo, tight tolerances and other material or advanced physical features translate into expense.

Insofar as the SIGs are concerned, I have had a few and just returned from Berlin where the SWAT assigned to Checkpoint Charlie was issued older German/Swiss Sigs. They are VERY disappointed with the so-called better (non-American made) Sigs. I personally was disappointed with the American made SIGs I had owned.

SIG qualified for air-marshal use AFTER HK had qualified FIRST - and that afterthought qualification I understand was achieved through political connections, not for quality (see Sig's website for the P238 which has failed safety levers. Not a good thing in a SA pocket pistol, eh?) Under no circumstances would I rate the SIG along with the HK in material or design quality, but I would rate it higher than most of the competition. The German SWAT would not - they would love to have their bosses issue the German made - and very expensive - HK P2000 and 45c. That's what they had told me just two weeks ago. I trust former German spec ops troops for their opinions.

I can say this: I want a firearm to work out of the box. Period. I don't want a manufacturer to tell me that I need to break it in with 300-500 rounds of defense ammo at $36/box - I use Corbon's DPX or Hornady''s critical defense rounds.

The HK's, and I had several, ALWAYS worked out of the box with NO FTF issues. So has the Beretta Nano. My three Glocks did not. I saw deformed cases, sometimes the primer didn't ignite at all, not a single one of the Glocks had double strike ability, and every one of the HKs did - and that is why (among many other reasons) the later are true combat pistols and the the former can never become combat pistols. That is why - among many other reasons aforementioned - DHS chose HK and not the Glock.

People reading this have to realize this: quality costs money. The price of Glock is what it is because of its level of quality. The reasons many PDs don't issue serious firearms is because they don't have the money; don't WANT to spend the money; because it's "good enough"; and because most LEOs are not gun people who give a damn.
Loose tolerances don't contribute to reliability? How about an ak47? Arguably the most reliable assault weapon ever made. Throw dirt, mud, sand, water or whatever in an Ak47 or glock and they still just shoot. I don't think an hk or sig with there tighter tolerances would still function like that.
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:26   #113
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cheap and cheaper

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Loose tolerances don't contribute to reliability? How about an ak47? Arguably the most reliable assault weapon ever made. Throw dirt, mud, sand, water or whatever in an Ak47 or glock and they still just shoot. I don't think an hk or sig with there tighter tolerances would still function like that.
Missing the point. There isn't a quality handgun out there that is designed with rattling slides and barrels that won't fit the slide tightly. Loose suspensions in cars don't work, they don't work in watches, or in cylinders and crankshafts in cars.

Loose tolerances do not mean that a mechanical object won't work. Obviously they do in Glocks and other machines. It's just that these machines are generally cheap to make and are often made by unskilled low-paid workers.

Accordingly, the Glocks and AKs are relatively inexpensive weapons that can be copied across the globe - and they are.

Sir, you just may have to get used to the idea that quality costs and lack of quality costs less.
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:49   #114
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All I ever think about regarding H&K pistols is the torture test comparison that guy did where the Glock just wouldnt quit and the H&K wouldnt even fire the chambered rounds when put in sand and dirt.

I cant even count the times I have heard about sand sensitivity issues. Doesnt sound like the best to me.
That's funny... my clean Glocks jammed all the time.
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:56   #115
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That's funny... my clean Glocks jammed all the time.

I find humor in these arguments. So did the Dept of Homeland Security in their 3,000,000 round test when the Glocks gave up the ghost early in the game, one of the first to do so. Not one Glock, several of them.

The humor continues as people try to convince us that a Timex is better than a Vacheron Constantine, a Girard-Perragaux, or a Patek Philippe.

But the Timex has a role in these narratives: The HKs keep on tickin'....

More importantly, like you've never heard of a conservative turning into a liberal, but many liberals who become conservatives; you will never hear a TRUTHFUL statement from an HK shooter telling us he is selling off his HKs to buy Glocks.

As I would sell off my Ferraris to drive Hyundais.

Glock Perfection? Not really.
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Old 07-31-2012, 13:02   #116
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Short answer: Yes. Duh.

Next question.



(I have two USPs, my daily is a compact 9mm and the other is a full size .45. But I also have Glock, S&W, Beretta, and many others ).
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Old 07-31-2012, 13:36   #117
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After reading various threads and some different forums, I set out this week to hunt down a HK 45.

I found an HK45 with SLR2 Laser/Light. Trading my M&P 15 for it.

I'll let you know how it shoots compared to my Glock 29sf, G20, G19, G17, G30, G22

Hoping it lives up to the hype, if so, I maybe swapped my EDC from a G29SF to a HK45c.
Let us know.
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Old 07-31-2012, 14:07   #118
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Short answer: Yes. Duh.

Next question.



(I have two USPs, my daily is a compact 9mm and the other is a full size .45. But I also have Glock, S&W, Beretta, and many others ).
Question: Will you be selling off your HK45 for a Glock?
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Old 07-31-2012, 14:26   #119
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Question: Will you be selling off your HK45 for a Glock?
I have a USP 45, not an HK45

I might sell a Glock to buy an HK45, though...
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Old 07-31-2012, 14:43   #120
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I have a USP 45, not an HK45

I might sell a Glock to buy an HK45, though...
Obviously you're a very bright man.

You are also astute and intelligent.

An upstanding American Patriot.

A winner.

You know something? One is never sorry when one buys the best. When one does not, one keeps defending the indefensible.
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Old 07-31-2012, 17:42   #121
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Missing the point. There isn't a quality handgun out there that is designed with rattling slides and barrels that won't fit the slide tightly. Loose suspensions in cars don't work, they don't work in watches, or in cylinders and crankshafts in cars.

Loose tolerances do not mean that a mechanical object won't work. Obviously they do in Glocks and other machines. It's just that these machines are generally cheap to make and are often made by unskilled low-paid workers.

Accordingly, the Glocks and AKs are relatively inexpensive weapons that can be copied across the globe - and they are.

Sir, you just may have to get used to the idea that quality costs and lack of quality costs less.
I realize that quality costs and have no doubt that hk is top quality. I simply do not know much about them, so its interesting to pick your brain. I am a glock and sig armorer and have taken both apart hundreds of times. And quality wise, I will admit that it is not even close when you compare the two. The sigs are simply better quality. But you cant discount that those damn cheap glocks simply shoot under most conditions. I know you have had trouble with yours, but short of my 10mm(whole other topic) all my glocks have NEVER malfunctioned. If you have taken one apart, there really is not much to them to break or go wrong. They are a very basic/simple design with not many parts. Again, I don't know anything about the hk, but am intrigued by there quality everyone talks about and you may be convincing me to at least buy and try one.
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Old 07-31-2012, 20:17   #122
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I realize that quality costs and have no doubt that hk is top quality. I simply do not know much about them, so its interesting to pick your brain. I am a glock and sig armorer and have taken both apart hundreds of times. And quality wise, I will admit that it is not even close when you compare the two. The sigs are simply better quality. But you cant discount that those damn cheap glocks simply shoot under most conditions. I know you have had trouble with yours, but short of my 10mm(whole other topic) all my glocks have NEVER malfunctioned. If you have taken one apart, there really is not much to them to break or go wrong. They are a very basic/simple design with not many parts. Again, I don't know anything about the hk, but am intrigued by there quality everyone talks about and you may be convincing me to at least buy and try one.
Well, you don't need to buy one to try one. Maybe one of your customers or friends can lend you theirs, or a range that has loaners? Though loaners are often shot out and abused.

Look, for most people it's a moot issue. Most Glocks do work, they do the job. Most LEOs never expect to use their guns and expect whatever is issued to them to work. And most often the guns do work. PDs save tons of money on buying caseloads of Glocks, part kits and easy training of armorers.

Aside that fact, certain organizations that have very high standards would prefer another make for the aforementioned reasons. The higher standard itself.

For most civilians who care, what matters is that we have our lives and our family's welfare on the line. If you use a Timex, fine, it tells the time as well as a Rolex - often better. But if you dive for a living, you'll likely use a Rolex, not a Timex.

The same for a SOCOM soldier or an air marshal. There's too much at stake to second guess on less than the best. These guys will demand the better firearm and often they do get it.

Whatever, good luck with your experiment, let us know your impressions after having a go with an HK.
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Old 08-01-2012, 00:33   #123
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HK puts out a product that uses quality materials, extensive testing, and stringent quality controls. Further, they do it very consistently.

So do a lot of other manufacturers. But HK goes a little higher quality. A little more stringent on the quality controls. A little more testing. A little more consistently.

You pay for that. For many, it's worth the price.

That's about it. They aren't magical, or forged with mythical steel. They're just a very good product executed very well.
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Old 08-01-2012, 17:17   #124
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Actually they use some magical steel and magical polymer. I heard, and this may be rumor no one will support, that the barrels are reprocessed steel from WWII tank cannons. It is aged and cured and I hope they used smoked bacon to cure it. The HK magic is not only in its fabrication, but extraordinary understanding of physics in the design. Once that's done Wright, Reverend, the rest is a cake walk. Notice that the basic frame and mechanics do not change. HOPE changes. They perfect what they have already created almost perfect, backed by more than a half century designing machine guns, and that's that.

A side thought that doesn't belong here. I've posted a few comments on the Beretta NANO threads, a most amazing - and reliable - little pistol that, given it's striker fired, is made with a very similar level of quality and advanced thinking as HK's - the last is most important. Not only is the Nano a rare incidence of bulletproof overengineering, but one of underpricing for the level of quality one can see inside this little gem. With three fingers the small pistol is harder to shoot of course, but it is intended for concealed carry. It is built for battle however, military standards - easily!

The factory has tested the pistol with 1000 rounds, degreased and with NO lubrication and with no failures. The reported failures from the usual limp-wristed sour grapes are mostly hype and from those having shot cheap aluminum "brass." The more I use it, the more I respect Beretta's genius having designed this fine pistol that HK could have made because they could and didn't; and Glock failed to make because they couldn't.

The competition? Well yes, The Kimber Solo needs to replace recoil springs every 500-1000 rounds, the defect "discovered" after the pistol went to market - a fatal flaw - er, an OVERPRICED fatal flaw; the Kahr PM-9 is long in the tooth, pathetically unreliable as the NYC PD no longer allows LEOs to use them; the almost great S&W Shield drops magazines out of the well as regularly as clockwork (and it is larger than the rest.) And so on.

A couple of You Tubes on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=VXxpkM7q_2E

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Old 08-01-2012, 18:41   #125
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The thing with Kahr and the NYPD had nothing to do with reliability.

Nano has problems with some ammo. Never heard of that with Shields or Kahrs.


Where are the extended mags for the Nano?

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