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Old 06-04-2012, 12:41   #51
fastbolt
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I think that some folks might give the following possibility some serious consideration ...

Namely, that they may have chosen some handgun/caliber/ammunition combination to carry as a dedicated lawful defensive carry weapon, but may have been doing so with a misplaced sense of confidence of the "effectiveness" of the combination.

It's a handgun. Even shotguns and rifles aren't guaranteed to provide "one shot stops".

In answer to the question posed by the OP?

Nope. Situations like this change nothing regarding how I select my retirement CCW choices.

Training (knowledge)
Skillset
Proper practice (skill maintenance)
Experience (ability to apply knowledge & skillset)
Mindset
Equipment (weapon/caliber/carry method)

I remember dealing with a good number of folks under the influence of PCP as a younger cop. Lots of training specific to dealing with people under the influence of it. I didn't have a choice whether I was carrying my .357 Magnum service revolver (125gr or 145gr JHP's), or later on my 9mm pistol (147gr JHP), or know whether I'd have time to have access to my patrol car's 12 gauge pump (buckshot/slugs) ... or whether I'd come upon an unexpected encounter while off-duty (armed with .38 Spl, .357 Mag, .45 ACP, 9mm, etc).

Regardless of what firearm I was equipped with while on & off-duty, though, I learned that it was my training, experience, skillset & mindset ... and being able to effectively utilize whatever equipment was at hand, as needed (or not) ... that was probably going to be critical.

I think some folks are perhaps susceptible to the Talisman Effect, knowingly or not, or may have unrealistic expectations for their defensive carry weapons.
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Last edited by fastbolt; 06-04-2012 at 12:43..
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Old 06-04-2012, 13:26   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durden View Post
Whether 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP or .44 Magnum, the only thing that would have quickly stopped this whacked out of his brain on bath salts and crack cocaine mutant would have been a hit to his central nervous system.
And he wasn't even on any drugs, nor was he eating someone's face.
Nothing is 100%, but I wouldn't put the 44mag @ full power with the right bullet, in the same catagory as a service pistol round. It's actually delivering low end rifle performance, why it's been so succesful as a hunting round out to 100yds for decades. Nothing beats good shot placement, but nothing wrong w/ more horsepower either.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:33   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Nothing is 100%, but I wouldn't put the 44mag @ full power with the right bullet, in the same catagory as a service pistol round. It's actually delivering low end rifle performance, why it's been so succesful as a hunting round out to 100yds for decades. Nothing beats good shot placement, but nothing wrong w/ more horsepower either.
unless that extra horsepower affects your followup shots. Then it leaves LESS room for error. The trade off would seem to be what do you want? A hole that covers .1 inch more, or faster follow up shots for fractions of seconds less. Not to mention more follow up shots (given similar platform and talking 9v45). Let's face it, if faced in a situation such as that, our accuracy will be nothing like how we shoot in competitions, more rounds MAY be more room for error.

Obviously more than one school of thought for this, and as many said before, we should focus more on training as opposed to comparing service calibers.
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Old 06-05-2012, 23:07   #54
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I had an ER Doc tell me to carry the biggest caliber I could carry. He said he kept a
12ga with slugs, close when he wasn't working.
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Old 06-06-2012, 00:14   #55
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Old 06-06-2012, 00:25   #56
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As for the OP's question - I never have or will carry 9mm. I'm OK with 357auto, 10mm, 40 and 45. I prefer 10mm, 40 and 45. If I did carry 9mm it would take much less than seeing the carnage this savage produced before I switched. I've seen worse with my own eyes.
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Old 06-06-2012, 08:23   #57
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Nothing is 100%, but I wouldn't put the 44mag @ full power with the right bullet, in the same catagory as a service pistol round. It's actually delivering low end rifle performance, why it's been so succesful as a hunting round out to 100yds for decades. Nothing beats good shot placement, but nothing wrong w/ more horsepower either.
I guess you and I view rifle performance differently. My ideal of a rifle performance starts at 2000 fps and goes up from there regardless of size and weight of the projectile.

I do how ever subscribe to the hydraulic effect of bullets based on my own testing and the research I have done over the years on shootings and officer involved shootings. For common knowledge when discussing terminal ballistics its been proven that in most situational shootings bullets traveling around 2000 fps or higher push the temporary wound channel that would normally be caused by slow moving projectiles into becoming a permanent would channel as the tissue attempting to stretch around the projectile can’t do so at 2000 fps+ without tearing. So in these cases you have what would be energy to do work doing so at a much higher capacity than the elasticity of the tissue in human’s body causing the secondary wounding to become permanent. (rifle damage to a human’s body is horrific compared to a pistol)

With that being said with a two legged critter being made up of 80% + water there is still a hydraulic effect even with the slower moving heavier bullets but its much smaller. But if you can imagine for a second fluids in your body, cells and blood vessels being caused to expand away from a bullet at roughly 900-1000fps it can still be kind of scary as to what that can actually do. But when you start doing this at 1250-1500fps I think it starts to have a much greater effect on a human but is still not a magic death-ray.

Saying that a person is shot with a bunch of police standing around and was hit 12-15 times that means each officer fires 2-3 bullets in rapid succession and that is not a deciding factor on how many shots are needed to stop an attack which most read about and start instantly referring to the rounds used as inferior and what they carry as being superior.
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Old 06-07-2012, 06:39   #58
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Originally Posted by spcwes View Post
I guess you and I view rifle performance differently. My ideal of a rifle performance starts at 2000 fps and goes up from there regardless of size and weight of the projectile.

I do how ever subscribe to the hydraulic effect of bullets based on my own testing and the research I have done over the years on shootings and officer involved shootings. For common knowledge when discussing terminal ballistics its been proven that in most situational shootings bullets traveling around 2000 fps or higher push the temporary wound channel that would normally be caused by slow moving projectiles into becoming a permanent would channel as the tissue attempting to stretch around the projectile canít do so at 2000 fps+ without tearing. So in these cases you have what would be energy to do work doing so at a much higher capacity of the elasticity of the tissue in humanís body causing the secondary wounding to be come permanent. (rifle damage to a humanís body is horrific compared to a pistol)

With that being said with a two legged critter being made up of 80% + water there is still a hydraulic effect even with the slower moving heavier bullets but its much smaller. But if you can imagine for a second fluids in your body, cells and blood vessels being caused to expand away from a bullet at roughly 900-1000fps it can still be kind of scary as to what that can actually do. But when you start doing this at 1250-1500fps I think it starts to have a much greater effect on a human but is still not a magic death-ray.

Saying that a person is shot with a bunch of police standing around and was hit 12-15 times that means each officer fires 2-3 bullets in rapid succession and that is not a deciding factor on how man shots are needed to stop an attack which most read about and start instantly referring to the rounds used as inferior and what they carry as being superior.
Could not agree more. Hence why I have a FN Five-seveN in my arsenal!
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Old 06-07-2012, 13:13   #59
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It made me rethink it for a day or 2 but I couldn't find a 17 shot 12 gauge that fit in my holster. Loaded with slugs of course.
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Old 06-10-2012, 17:47   #60
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Four undercover NYPD cops cornered Amadou Diallo in a narrow doorway and only managed to hit him 19 times out of 41 shots fired. It's not easy to produce one-shot stops even when there are four seasoned LEOs trying it.

I don't know how close the Miami officers were to this freak but I suspect the zombie-like situation produced a great amount of trepidation in approaching him. And it's Miami, the two men are stark naked so who knows what diseases might be transmitted via blood which I take it was all over the two men.

I think shot placement is the most likely reason it took four rounds to end the attacker's life.
NYPD at the time was using 9mm Ball/FMJ at the time and have since switched to 124gr Gold Dot +P it still should not matter much if you hit the 3 zones that need to be hit.

You have to train shot placement and often because when it goes down you will lose some of your faculties so if you train and then practice often you do not have much to lose.

Most people who have weapons still cannot shoot waste ammo at range visits rely on a friend who was in the military, police, or someone who goes to the range to teach them or pal around with someone and try to get as much as possible for free.

Spend some money on a professional learn how it is done then practice.

People want a certain caliber or bullet and cannot hit what they are firing on. Spaying the landscape puts innocent people at risk and does not solve you immendiate problem.

PD's have gone to larger calibers civilains also maybe a good thing but teach them how to shoot. A person with some good training and who practices has mindset will beat anyone firing .45acp with a .22 pistol.

Dekalb PD here in Georiga, were very effective with their 9mm's then when the chief was fired the new one switched to .40cal when I asked why I was told they wanted to be like everyone else.

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Old 06-11-2012, 08:50   #61
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cannibalsMiamizombiesvoodoo

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Old 06-11-2012, 17:00   #62
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This incident didn't make me reconsider caliber. What did was the unusual spike in break ins... I felt like it was finally time to move to a 357 sig
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Old 06-11-2012, 17:23   #63
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The face eating is over the top, but playing with the victims fanny... that's off the chain.

Same sex marriage would have prevented this.
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Old 06-11-2012, 21:11   #64
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I feel good with my G19 and G26.
Love my G21 but can't carry it all day long.
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Old 06-12-2012, 15:17   #65
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I put an additional mag in my vehicle
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Old 06-12-2012, 15:43   #66
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Zombies are dead bodies that have been re-animated. Cannibals are people that eat human flesh. Let's get our horror mythology straight here. I am sick of the zombie talk. Cannibals are not zombies and vice-versa!

By the by, even a direct heart shot is not guaranteed to stop someone immediately, regardless of caliber. Only way to stop that hopped up freak instantly would have been a brain shot.
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Old 06-13-2012, 18:28   #67
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Nope. I carried a full size magnum before and I carry it still. Though now I'm starting to think I should bring an extra gun just to be on the safe side.

I think no matter how much you argue anything else, when you realize that even shotguns and rifles can fail to stop, and people have survived headshots, there are only two universal truths to stopping a threat. 1. Anything that will not entirely cause the threat to stop existing as a single cohesive entity will not be 100% certain to stop the threat in one shot. 2. Regardless of scale, things tend to die if you put enough holes in them. The only question is how many holes and how long will that take.
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Old 06-14-2012, 16:51   #68
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nah my 147+ps should do the trick and the cz is all steel for beatings if i go to slidelock
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Old 06-14-2012, 17:31   #69
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I guess you and I view rifle performance differently. My ideal of a rifle performance starts at 2000 fps and goes up from there regardless of size and weight of the projectile.

.
Well, consider that the 45-70 is quite an effective rifle round & doesn't even sniff 2000fps. Most that hunt will tell you a handgun in 44mag w/ full power loads is equiv to a 30-30 out to 75yds, then the 44mag loses vel very quickly. So yeah, I would put big handgun bullets moving fast in the rifle power catagory, at or above 1000ft# of energy. A 300grJHP @ 1200fps offers some pretty impressive wound ballistics, far more than any lesser handgun round. Yes there is recoil, but one well placed shot beats 3-4 poorly placed shots, self defense or hunting.
If the bullet does work, that is signifiicantly above any service round. Not that energy means a whole lot, but if you can get a bullet to do work, it counts for something. Even the mighty 458winmag doesn't make 2000fps & few would put that in a handgun catagory.
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Old 06-14-2012, 19:48   #70
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First of all, we know little or nothing about the placement of those 4 hits. Second, a human can function for up to 10 seconds after a shot through the heart, as long as they can fight through the shock and pain. This guy was out of his mind. I'm pretty sure the shock and pain failed to register.

As far as changing my carry load, not a chance. There are several proven loads that I am comfortable with. While I appreciate the data that Marshall collects, I'm much more concerned about my speed and placement than about a couple percentage points on one of his charts.
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Old 06-14-2012, 19:50   #71
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no, but i will spend more time practicing a failure drill.
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Old 06-14-2012, 20:21   #72
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dfk Your correct... the 357 sig. is the best hand gun round out there... more energy than the 45 and the 10 mm
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Old 06-15-2012, 00:14   #73
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dfk Your correct... the 357 sig. is the best hand gun round out there... more energy than the 45 and the 10 mm
Which mans little if you don't get the bullet to do any work. Energy alone, at handgun vel, mans very little. Give me a crappy 9mm JHP over a 357sig FMJ anyday. I do really like the 357sig though.
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Old 06-15-2012, 04:46   #74
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dfk Your correct... the 357 sig. is the best hand gun round out there... more energy than the 45 and the 10 mm
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Old 06-15-2012, 05:59   #75
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He must be reading from the Glock manual if he thinks the .357 sig has more energy than the 10mm...
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