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Old 06-03-2012, 00:08   #41
Durden
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The .40S&W is a great pistol cartridge, on a relative scale, and relativity is huge when firing a bullet from what is inevitably a short barrel, semiauto pistol.

Whether 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP or .44 Magnum, the only thing that would have quickly stopped this whacked out of his brain on bath salts and crack cocaine mutant would have been a hit to his central nervous system.

I personally know of a robbery of a liquor store where the perpetrator was shot twice by one of the night clerks with a .357 magnum at a distance of no more than 15 feet, and the perp literally ran away, and was only apprehended when he sought medical treatment at an emergency room nearly 48 hours later.

And he wasn't even on any drugs, nor was he eating someone's face.
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Old 06-03-2012, 17:18   #42
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Glock 20 10mm everyone knows the history of how this round came to be , because of the miami shoot out, The FBI wanted a more powerful round, after testing some agents could not handle recoil and the 40 was born. the thing is that even gack then they new they needed more fire power. I'm in miami and a Firefighter on most scene I have been on with Miami Dade Police they are either carrying 45 acp, or 40. bath salt side affect are elevated blood temp, super human strenght, and psychotic behavior. Yes shot placement is important but every caliber has its place a drug fueled person on this street name bath salt LSD is like a very crazed strong individual. how good is shot placement on a grizzly with a 380 or 9mm. so if I had a choice 9mm for a bath salt, coked out of his mind " zombie " or a 10mmm you know I would prefer the 10mm.
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Old 06-03-2012, 18:19   #43
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The 10mm predates the Miami shootout by three years.

There is no evidence 10mm is superior on humans to the other calibers. Most defensive loads aren't even full power so in essence they are just .40s anyway. Virtually no LE uses it, not even specialized units like SWAT and they can pretty much pick whatever they want.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 06-03-2012 at 18:20..
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Old 06-03-2012, 18:22   #44
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Glock 20 10mm everyone knows the history of how this round came to be , because of the miami shoot out, The FBI wanted a more powerful round, after testing some agents could not handle recoil and the 40 was born. the thing is that even gack then they new they needed more fire power. I'm in miami and a Firefighter on most scene I have been on with Miami Dade Police they are either carrying 45 acp, or 40. bath salt side affect are elevated blood temp, super human strenght, and psychotic behavior. Yes shot placement is important but every caliber has its place a drug fueled person on this street name bath salt LSD is like a very crazed strong individual. how good is shot placement on a grizzly with a 380 or 9mm. so if I had a choice 9mm for a bath salt, coked out of his mind " zombie " or a 10mmm you know I would prefer the 10mm.

What the needed was a round (not necessarily a different caliber) that offered more penetration.

And they didn't need agents with little .38spl revolvers confronting armed, violent felons.
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Old 06-03-2012, 21:17   #45
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The 10mm predates the Miami shootout by three years.

There is no evidence 10mm is superior on humans to the other calibers. Most defensive loads aren't even full power so in essence they are just .40s anyway. Virtually no LE uses it, not even specialized units like SWAT and they can pretty much pick whatever they want.


It's not that the 10mm isn't as good a man stopper (with proper ammunition, Like Double tap)

The 10mm was selected by the FBI for use in the field, their Firearms Training Unit "concluded that its recoil was excessive in terms of training for average agent/police officer competency of use and qualification," and the pistols that chambered it were too large for some small-handed individuals.

The FBI's tests revealed that a 180gr 10mm bullet, propelled between 900-1000 fps, achieved desired terminal performance without the heavy recoil associated with conventional 10mm ammunition (1300-1400 fps). The FBI contacted Smith & Wesson and requested it to design a handgun to FBI specifications, based on the existing large-frame S&W 4506 .45 ACP handgun, that would reliably function with the FBI's reduced velocity 10mm ammunition. During this collaboration with the FBI, S&W realized it could shorten the 10mm case enough to fit within its medium-frame 9mm handguns and load it with a 180gr JHP bullet to produce ballistic performance identical to the FBI's reduced velocity 10mm cartridge. S&W then teamed with Winchester to produce a new cartridge, the .40 S&W. It uses a small pistol primer whereas the 10mm cartridge uses a large pistol primer.

The .40S&W cartridge debuted in January 1990 but their pistols (4006) took a few months to hit the shelves. Glock in the meantime beat the S&W's to the shelves and the rest is history.
(But that's the topic of another question)

The 10mm reduced recoil load is an excellent man stopper but the same results can be had with the 40S&W round in a smaller and easier to manage pistol**

As far as law enforcement agencies go it makes sense to have one gun to train with. They couldn't do that with the 10mm.
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Old 06-03-2012, 23:02   #46
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Has the Recent Miami Cannibal Incident got u Rethinking Your Cailber?
Nope. Not one bit.

1. Shoot in a vital area.

2. Repeat as necessary until the threat stops being a threat.

It's that simple. As long as your carrying a acceptable caliber firearm to begin with, it's all about shot placement in rapid succession until the threat is neutralized.
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Old 06-03-2012, 23:06   #47
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zgar, cowboy1964,

Quote:
The 10mm predates the Miami shootout by three years.
Quote:
Everyone knows the history of how this round came to be, because of the Miami shoot out...


As usual Wiki gets it wrong.

Whit Collins started work on the .40 cal / 10mm some where around 1970 or so. In 1971 with his drawings, research and some "dummy" loads made up he approached Col. Jeff Cooper about his idea. Col. Jeff Cooper and Whit Collin's took their idea to Guns and Ammo for help with the ballistics research. Next came assistance from Irv Stone of Bar-Sto and master gunsmith John French and by 1972 a Browning Hi-Power chambered in .40 G&A was being test fired. In 1973 Col. Cooper and Mr. Collins started talking about a more powerful longer cased .40 caliber round that would be developed with the various .45 Auto platforms in mind. The longer case .40 caliber round was being called the .40 Super at the time. A number of years went by until 1978 when Col. Cooper teamed with Thomas Dornaus and Michael Dixon. Together they developed the Bren Ten semiautomatic pistol based on the CZ75 frame and the long cased "40 Super" evolved into what we now call the 10mm Auto. It wasn't until Colt developed the Delta Elite in 1987 that Col. Jeff Cooper finally got what he wanted, an M1911 chambered for the 10mm cartridge that he helped create, back in the mid 1970's.

This is where I pose for the camera and declare that; "I am a student of the gun."




And it helps if you have your hands on one of these...

Caliber Corner




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"Only large manly men and very dangerous mythical creatures can handle the raw power of the 10mm"
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Old 06-04-2012, 10:42   #48
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No, I am completely content carrying either my G29 or G30.
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Old 06-04-2012, 10:56   #49
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This is where I pose for the camera and declare that; "I am a student of the gun."


LOL Thanks for the history.
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Old 06-04-2012, 11:24   #50
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I try to stick with better & best

I don't think many folks would want to try and stop* that cannibal guy (or someone like him) with a 380 LCP / P3AT or 38 snub.

*I get the impression that ^ attacker could have returned fire if he had been armed.

Sometimes to to ____ I'm limited to a 380 in my pocket; which should be a better deterrent than my fist, but not up to par with a more powerful round & user friendly pistol.

Reasonable miminum for SD (good): G26 loaded with a good +P HP, like Ranger T

Better: G27 or G33 loaded with Ranger T, Gold Dot

Best: G29 or 30, the 29 loaded with nearly any full power 10mm (I like the Hornady 155 XTP) or the 30 loaded with 230 gr. Ranger T

The 33/27 are not difficult to carry & conceal and produce 400# + of KE
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Old 06-04-2012, 12:41   #51
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I think that some folks might give the following possibility some serious consideration ...

Namely, that they may have chosen some handgun/caliber/ammunition combination to carry as a dedicated lawful defensive carry weapon, but may have been doing so with a misplaced sense of confidence of the "effectiveness" of the combination.

It's a handgun. Even shotguns and rifles aren't guaranteed to provide "one shot stops".

In answer to the question posed by the OP?

Nope. Situations like this change nothing regarding how I select my retirement CCW choices.

Training (knowledge)
Skillset
Proper practice (skill maintenance)
Experience (ability to apply knowledge & skillset)
Mindset
Equipment (weapon/caliber/carry method)

I remember dealing with a good number of folks under the influence of PCP as a younger cop. Lots of training specific to dealing with people under the influence of it. I didn't have a choice whether I was carrying my .357 Magnum service revolver (125gr or 145gr JHP's), or later on my 9mm pistol (147gr JHP), or know whether I'd have time to have access to my patrol car's 12 gauge pump (buckshot/slugs) ... or whether I'd come upon an unexpected encounter while off-duty (armed with .38 Spl, .357 Mag, .45 ACP, 9mm, etc).

Regardless of what firearm I was equipped with while on & off-duty, though, I learned that it was my training, experience, skillset & mindset ... and being able to effectively utilize whatever equipment was at hand, as needed (or not) ... that was probably going to be critical.

I think some folks are perhaps susceptible to the Talisman Effect, knowingly or not, or may have unrealistic expectations for their defensive carry weapons.
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Last edited by fastbolt; 06-04-2012 at 12:43..
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Old 06-04-2012, 13:26   #52
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Whether 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP or .44 Magnum, the only thing that would have quickly stopped this whacked out of his brain on bath salts and crack cocaine mutant would have been a hit to his central nervous system.
And he wasn't even on any drugs, nor was he eating someone's face.
Nothing is 100%, but I wouldn't put the 44mag @ full power with the right bullet, in the same catagory as a service pistol round. It's actually delivering low end rifle performance, why it's been so succesful as a hunting round out to 100yds for decades. Nothing beats good shot placement, but nothing wrong w/ more horsepower either.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:33   #53
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Nothing is 100%, but I wouldn't put the 44mag @ full power with the right bullet, in the same catagory as a service pistol round. It's actually delivering low end rifle performance, why it's been so succesful as a hunting round out to 100yds for decades. Nothing beats good shot placement, but nothing wrong w/ more horsepower either.
unless that extra horsepower affects your followup shots. Then it leaves LESS room for error. The trade off would seem to be what do you want? A hole that covers .1 inch more, or faster follow up shots for fractions of seconds less. Not to mention more follow up shots (given similar platform and talking 9v45). Let's face it, if faced in a situation such as that, our accuracy will be nothing like how we shoot in competitions, more rounds MAY be more room for error.

Obviously more than one school of thought for this, and as many said before, we should focus more on training as opposed to comparing service calibers.
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Old 06-05-2012, 23:07   #54
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I had an ER Doc tell me to carry the biggest caliber I could carry. He said he kept a
12ga with slugs, close when he wasn't working.
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Old 06-06-2012, 00:14   #55
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Old 06-06-2012, 00:25   #56
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As for the OP's question - I never have or will carry 9mm. I'm OK with 357auto, 10mm, 40 and 45. I prefer 10mm, 40 and 45. If I did carry 9mm it would take much less than seeing the carnage this savage produced before I switched. I've seen worse with my own eyes.
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Old 06-06-2012, 08:23   #57
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Nothing is 100%, but I wouldn't put the 44mag @ full power with the right bullet, in the same catagory as a service pistol round. It's actually delivering low end rifle performance, why it's been so succesful as a hunting round out to 100yds for decades. Nothing beats good shot placement, but nothing wrong w/ more horsepower either.
I guess you and I view rifle performance differently. My ideal of a rifle performance starts at 2000 fps and goes up from there regardless of size and weight of the projectile.

I do how ever subscribe to the hydraulic effect of bullets based on my own testing and the research I have done over the years on shootings and officer involved shootings. For common knowledge when discussing terminal ballistics its been proven that in most situational shootings bullets traveling around 2000 fps or higher push the temporary wound channel that would normally be caused by slow moving projectiles into becoming a permanent would channel as the tissue attempting to stretch around the projectile can’t do so at 2000 fps+ without tearing. So in these cases you have what would be energy to do work doing so at a much higher capacity than the elasticity of the tissue in human’s body causing the secondary wounding to become permanent. (rifle damage to a human’s body is horrific compared to a pistol)

With that being said with a two legged critter being made up of 80% + water there is still a hydraulic effect even with the slower moving heavier bullets but its much smaller. But if you can imagine for a second fluids in your body, cells and blood vessels being caused to expand away from a bullet at roughly 900-1000fps it can still be kind of scary as to what that can actually do. But when you start doing this at 1250-1500fps I think it starts to have a much greater effect on a human but is still not a magic death-ray.

Saying that a person is shot with a bunch of police standing around and was hit 12-15 times that means each officer fires 2-3 bullets in rapid succession and that is not a deciding factor on how many shots are needed to stop an attack which most read about and start instantly referring to the rounds used as inferior and what they carry as being superior.
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Old 06-07-2012, 06:39   #58
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I guess you and I view rifle performance differently. My ideal of a rifle performance starts at 2000 fps and goes up from there regardless of size and weight of the projectile.

I do how ever subscribe to the hydraulic effect of bullets based on my own testing and the research I have done over the years on shootings and officer involved shootings. For common knowledge when discussing terminal ballistics its been proven that in most situational shootings bullets traveling around 2000 fps or higher push the temporary wound channel that would normally be caused by slow moving projectiles into becoming a permanent would channel as the tissue attempting to stretch around the projectile canít do so at 2000 fps+ without tearing. So in these cases you have what would be energy to do work doing so at a much higher capacity of the elasticity of the tissue in humanís body causing the secondary wounding to be come permanent. (rifle damage to a humanís body is horrific compared to a pistol)

With that being said with a two legged critter being made up of 80% + water there is still a hydraulic effect even with the slower moving heavier bullets but its much smaller. But if you can imagine for a second fluids in your body, cells and blood vessels being caused to expand away from a bullet at roughly 900-1000fps it can still be kind of scary as to what that can actually do. But when you start doing this at 1250-1500fps I think it starts to have a much greater effect on a human but is still not a magic death-ray.

Saying that a person is shot with a bunch of police standing around and was hit 12-15 times that means each officer fires 2-3 bullets in rapid succession and that is not a deciding factor on how man shots are needed to stop an attack which most read about and start instantly referring to the rounds used as inferior and what they carry as being superior.
Could not agree more. Hence why I have a FN Five-seveN in my arsenal!
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Old 06-07-2012, 13:13   #59
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It made me rethink it for a day or 2 but I couldn't find a 17 shot 12 gauge that fit in my holster. Loaded with slugs of course.
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Old 06-10-2012, 17:47   #60
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Four undercover NYPD cops cornered Amadou Diallo in a narrow doorway and only managed to hit him 19 times out of 41 shots fired. It's not easy to produce one-shot stops even when there are four seasoned LEOs trying it.

I don't know how close the Miami officers were to this freak but I suspect the zombie-like situation produced a great amount of trepidation in approaching him. And it's Miami, the two men are stark naked so who knows what diseases might be transmitted via blood which I take it was all over the two men.

I think shot placement is the most likely reason it took four rounds to end the attacker's life.
NYPD at the time was using 9mm Ball/FMJ at the time and have since switched to 124gr Gold Dot +P it still should not matter much if you hit the 3 zones that need to be hit.

You have to train shot placement and often because when it goes down you will lose some of your faculties so if you train and then practice often you do not have much to lose.

Most people who have weapons still cannot shoot waste ammo at range visits rely on a friend who was in the military, police, or someone who goes to the range to teach them or pal around with someone and try to get as much as possible for free.

Spend some money on a professional learn how it is done then practice.

People want a certain caliber or bullet and cannot hit what they are firing on. Spaying the landscape puts innocent people at risk and does not solve you immendiate problem.

PD's have gone to larger calibers civilains also maybe a good thing but teach them how to shoot. A person with some good training and who practices has mindset will beat anyone firing .45acp with a .22 pistol.

Dekalb PD here in Georiga, were very effective with their 9mm's then when the chief was fired the new one switched to .40cal when I asked why I was told they wanted to be like everyone else.

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