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Old 05-26-2012, 14:09   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
How much time have you spent in the field or in the Military?? (not the air force or navy)
I have spent some time in a combat zone, as one of the trigger pullers.

I don't recall ever having a misfire. Are we having this problem these days? Even if we did have some misfires with current ammo, I'd think the best way to train for it would be the "tap, rack, bang"......not to keep pulling the trigger.

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Old 05-26-2012, 14:17   #82
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I was not asking you btw.

Training is a great thing. Where dies this 'keep pulling the trigger 'nonsense come from?? It has nothing to do with the fact that the US Military will be sticking with hammer fired pistols.
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Old 05-26-2012, 14:25   #83
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I was not asking you btw.

Training is a great thing. Where dies this 'keep pulling the trigger 'nonsense come from?? It has nothing to do with the fact that the US Military will be sticking with hammer fired pistols.
Yeah, I know Flipper......but, I decided to respond anyway!

I would think "keep pulling the trigger" is pretty much the same thing as "second strike capability". In either case, I have no idea if that's the reason why our military has chosen to go with hammer fired pistols. In any case, it really doesn't matter, does it? Some people believe that, and that's the thought behind my comment.......not that the military required it for that reason, or not.

ooc.........
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Old 05-26-2012, 14:32   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hogship View Post
Yeah, I know Flipper......but, I decided to respond anyway!

I would think "keep pulling the trigger" is pretty much the same thing as "second strike capability". In either case, I have no idea if that's the reason why our military has chosen to go with hammer fired pistols. In any case, it really doesn't matter, does it? Some people believe that, and that's the thought behind my comment.......not that the military required it for that reason, or not.

ooc.........
Probably because during the XM9 second trial, the HK P7M13 was the only striker fired gun that had second strike capability and it didn't win.

I think that the US Board of Ordnance wanted second strike capability and not hammer fired. If that's the case then HK wouldn't have modified the P7 into the P7M13, of which they did specifically for the second XM9 trial.
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Old 05-26-2012, 14:39   #85
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Ass to Mouth?

I don't get it?
At the moment?
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Old 05-26-2012, 14:41   #86
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At the moment?
Teehee.
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Old 05-26-2012, 14:52   #87
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Probably because during the XM9 second trial, the HK P7M13 was the only striker fired gun that had second strike capability and it didn't win.

I think that the US Board of Ordnance wanted second strike capability and not hammer fired. If that's the case then HK wouldn't have modified the P7 into the P7M13, of which they did specifically for the second XM9 trial.
Hello fnfalman.......

That would seem to make some sense.......it's not about the hammer, but it is certainly about the second strike capability.

To me, this requirement doesn't make a lot of sense, considering I've never seen a primer failure. Those who make the final decision on the specifications, are probably not experienced in combat......but, I would imagine there are those are combat savvy, and do advise these people.

I am a little puzzled as to why the second strike capability would be so important that it would disqualify everything else without that specific ability.......

When I was in the military, the 1911a1 was still the issue sidearm.......so, the procedure to clear a malfunction is the same as for a Glock, Smith M&P, XD, etc.

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Old 05-26-2012, 16:20   #88
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How many posting in this thread have actually been in the military?!
Current. Army.

For example, I found out about the Glocks in CAG from SOAR's S-3 who has a Battalion command now. I am not riding the internet wave. Okay, now that we got that out there.
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Old 05-26-2012, 16:27   #89
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I still think, at this moment, it all boils down to the fact that there is no need to replace the M-9 simply because other designs have come along.
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Old 05-26-2012, 16:35   #90
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Apparently because they are in line with what the Military wants in a side are I suppose.
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Old 05-26-2012, 16:51   #91
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I still think, at this moment, it all boils down to the fact that there is no need to replace the M-9 simply because other designs have come along.
Well, it is the same old story every time.

The initial testing for the procurement was all ****ed up or mired in potential ineptitude/minor corruption and now we're stuck with mediocre equipment that would be expensive to replace.
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Old 05-26-2012, 16:55   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
In a combat situation it is far from nonsense





I'll take a tap rap bang over praying a second strike works anyday.

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Old 05-26-2012, 17:01   #93
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I'll take a tap rap bang over praying a second strike works anyday.

Whether or not that's what the procurement guys thought was awesome when we were getting the weapon, I can tell you now that no end user in the Army values double banging the chamber. I've never seen you had a malfunction so pull the trigger again taught. Cycle the weapon and try again only. Malfunctions are serious and you don't rely on chance to remedy them.

You always go with the highest probability of resolution if time permits.

So yes, second strike is nonsense.
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Old 05-26-2012, 17:15   #94
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Well, it is the same old story every time.

The initial testing for the procurement was all ****ed up or mired in potential ineptitude/minor corruption and now we're stuck with mediocre equipment that would be expensive to replace.

Yah, the M-1 Garand is sure an example of the "everytime theory". So was the 1911 come to think of it.
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Old 05-26-2012, 17:20   #95
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Originally Posted by Check my Gat View Post
Well, it is the same old story every time.

The initial testing for the procurement was all ****ed up or mired in potential ineptitude/minor corruption and now we're stuck with mediocre equipment that would be expensive to replace.

What's mediocre about the M9 other than your opinion on it?
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Old 05-26-2012, 17:21   #96
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I'll take a tap rap bang over praying a second strike works anyday.

What branch did you serve in?
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Old 05-26-2012, 17:39   #97
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What's mediocre about the M9 other than your opinion on it?
Stands up to high volume use very poorly. I've seen M9s that are all over a human silhouette, fired from a rest, because they've got a pretty unimpressive but high for the type round count. This is unacceptable in a military issue pistol with the amount of rounds we fire in pre-deployment training.
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Old 05-26-2012, 17:43   #98
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Yah, the M-1 Garand is sure an example of the "everytime theory". So was the 1911 come to think of it.
You're demonstrating a profound lack of reading comprehension and critical thought here demonstrated by the following.

1)Failing to recognize clearly hyperbolic language.

2)When did we adopt the Garand and 1911? Oh, 8 and 10 decades ago respectively. That is not reflective of contemporary procurement procedures.

I was also unimpressed with the use of sarcasm in its lowest form, it is very passive aggressive and the kind of the thing that will get you a death stare in a briefing room. I welcome you to dismiss my statements, just do it straightforwardly.

Last edited by Check my Gat; 05-26-2012 at 17:46.. Reason: typo.
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Old 05-26-2012, 17:44   #99
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What's mediocre about the M9 other than your opinion on it?
In my opinion, the Beretta is a superior platform over the 1911......but, the 9mm cartridge is inferior to the 45acp, especially for the ball ammo our soldiers are required to use.

Even so, I believe I'd choose the M9 over the 1911, if I had to make that choice. This is because the Beretta has other positive things that (imho) outweigh the drawbacks of the 9mm cartridge........

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Old 05-26-2012, 17:50   #100
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In my opinion, the Beretta is a superior platform over the 1911......but, the 9mm cartridge is inferior to the 45acp, especially for the ball ammo our soldiers are required to use.

Even so, I believe I'd choose the M9 over the 1911, if I had to make that choice. This is because the Beretta has other positive things that (imho) outweigh the drawbacks of the 9mm cartridge........

ooc
I like the M9 better at round 1. At round 50k, I will take the 1911.
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