Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-25-2012, 15:10   #21
DaBurna
Senior Member
 
DaBurna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Bama Boy
Posts: 2,055
What do u think about this??? Would a safety prevented this??

__________________
To Soar as Eagles We Must Rid Ourselves of The "Barnyard Mentality"
Glock 23 Best Glock # 4 # All-Around
-GSSF MEMBER- 10 Glocks & Counting....

Last edited by DaBurna; 05-25-2012 at 15:11..
DaBurna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2012, 15:24   #22
Nakanokalronin
JMB & MTK
 
Nakanokalronin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,431
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBurna View Post
What do u think about this??? Would a safety prevented this??
Man shoots himself - Tosh.0 - YouTube

A safety does not come off nor does a finger go on the trigger until the gun is on target. He broke both rules but if he kept the safety on until the gun was on target, it would have prevented it.

To me though, a thumb safety works best when re-holstering incase the edge of a holster or anything else gets caught in the trigger guard area. Not likely to happen but it sure can.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Nakanokalronin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2012, 16:14   #23
oldman11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,815
Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post
The majority of injuries cause by unintended discharges by Glocks happen when re-holstering. The happen because something, sometimes a finger but often some other random object, gets inside the trigger guard and pushes the trigger back as the pistol is holstered. A trigger activated firing pin block does not solve this problem and is no more, if well designed, than one of several drop safeties. Glock call theirs a trigger safety but it is in fact a drop safety situated on the trigger. It does not make the trigger safer.

To a degree, a heavier trigger action makes the pistol slightly less prone to inadvertent discharges but it will not prevent the pistol from being fired under stress with a severe startle response and it will not prevent a reholstering discharge because you are using the muscles of the arm rather than the finger to reholster. For these small gains the pistol looses a lot in practical accuracy and even speed of fire.

English
Your whole statement is untrue and unfounded. Sorry.
oldman11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2012, 18:46   #24
HKLovingIT
Resident Evil
 
HKLovingIT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Out On The Tiles
Posts: 4,372
What about rifles? All my rifles have safeties and I never give it a second thought or get tripped up. Maybe because all of them have safeties so it's just ingrained. Rifle = flick safety off.

I guess if you go back and forth between handguns that have them or don't, you could tripped up more likely. I've not had a problem using mine, but then I've not been shot at while carrying one with or without. I have seen plenty of YTube reviews of firearms that have a safety and the guy goes to shoot it and is like "Oh yeah the safety is on..."

I believe Mas had in one of his books a study by Illinois State Police (might nor remember the agency correctly) where they couldn't find an incident where carrying on safe led to officer injury or death. They did note that carrying on safe helped to prevent officers getting shot during some gun grabs. Again....

Anyway, I think the old-timer's wisdom of train like the dickens with whatever action type and safety / or non safety equipped firearm you intend to carry, is true.
__________________
Jesus didn't have a stunt double, and neither do you...

кто пукнул здесь?
Nescio, sed foetet.
HKLovingIT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2012, 03:12   #25
English
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: London
Posts: 5,704
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman11 View Post
Your whole statement is untrue and unfounded. Sorry.
Just not good enough!

Of course I can be wrong, or even totally wrong, but the function of discussion is to say why that is so. Don't appologise, just say why! if you don't have time to do that, wait until you do.

English

Last edited by English; 05-26-2012 at 03:47..
English is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2012, 03:38   #26
English
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: London
Posts: 5,704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakanokalronin View Post
A safety does not come off nor does a finger go on the trigger until the gun is on target. He broke both rules but if he kept the safety on until the gun was on target, it would have prevented it.
To be more related to actuality, the safety does not come off until the the gun is well on its way to the target. But unless the safety can be opperated without any change of grip, that slows down the first shot and that could get you killed.

Quote:
To me though, a thumb safety works best when re-holstering incase the edge of a holster or anything else gets caught in the trigger guard area. Not likely to happen but it sure can.
Yes, it works well for that when you remember to put it on safe. On those rare occasions, often following severe levels of stress, when you forget to put it on safe, you are likely to have no fall back habits that protect you from an accidental discharge.

There is no nice answer to this but optional safeties, as on the 1911, can lead to a false level of confidence which is not always justified. A properly designed backstrap safety would solve all these problems if combined with a slight change of technique so that the grip safety is not depressed as the pistol is re-holstered. Unfortunately, such a pistol is not made (with the half exception of the XD which I don't know well enough to make a proper comment). Why is this? Because the 1911 grip safety proved in practice to have problems to such an extent that many had it pinned off safe. The result is that manufacturers, as prone to fashion as others, stopped designing grip safeties into their pistols.

English

PS If you read what the man had to say, he had been practicing with a different holster which needed a thumb sweep to unlock it. Then he changed over to a Serpa which needed a trigger finger depression to unlock it. The thumb sweep took the pistol off safe and as the trigger finger did not properly unlock the Serpa he was trying to draw against unexpected resistance with his finger in the trigger guard. BANG! One moral of his experience is not to mix critical training habits. The other, for me and many others, is don't use a Serpa.

English

Last edited by English; 05-26-2012 at 03:48..
English is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2012, 04:36   #27
fnfalman
Chicks Dig It
 
fnfalman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: California & New Mexico, US
Posts: 57,735


Depends on the safety. If it's conveniently located and operated like the M1911, CZ75, Browning Hi Power, then I'll use them. If it's something like SW or Beretta slide mounted hammer drop lever, then I'd use them to drop the hammer then flip them back up to the "Fire" position again. What's the point of leaving them in the "Safe" position in this case?
__________________
Can you dig it?
fnfalman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2012, 04:56   #28
Ford302Glock21
Chrome Horsie
 
Ford302Glock21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,171
Send a message via AIM to Ford302Glock21 Send a message via Yahoo to Ford302Glock21


Its a free country so do whatever you want either way, however, use some sound reasoning in your arguements.

I have come to a similar conclusion that I don't like safeties on my pistols. I am not a professional marksmen, leo, soldier, or secret agent that is paid to train heavily with firearms on a regular basis and can perfect a safety routine. In the unlikely and unexpected event of needing to draw my carry piece for defense, the less variables, the more likely my success. I have carried the 1911 in condition 1, and it is not near as comforting to quickly draw compared to a glock, sig, hk etc.

There are pistols that would not be considered safe to carry without a manual safety because they were designed that way. Nobody is forcing us to carry them.

I don't hear of anyone shooting themselves with glocks while reholstering. What is there to catch on in a holster? Anything can happen but this sounds like internet speculation. What is the ratio of this occurrence to the millions of glocks( XDs, sigs, hks, s&w,etc) out there?

Just because a safety lever is a good idea for some police officers does not make it good for a ccw citizen. Criminals can see the officer's weapon and try to grab. They don't know we have one until we draw from under a shirt. Don't tell me its safer because they might take it out of your hand and not know how to make it hot. If you have not removed the safety by that time, how were you planning to fire it?

How many revolvers have safety levers? Yes pretty much every long gun has a safety lever. Exactly when will you need to quickly pull a rifle out of a holster from under your shirt to protect your life?



Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine
Ford302Glock21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2012, 08:01   #29
English
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: London
Posts: 5,704
Ford302Glock21 - another good post.

English
English is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2012, 08:14   #30
CBennett
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: PA/Covered by LEOSA
Posts: 11,532
I LIKE them(manuAl sAfeties) but I don't think all guns need or require them nor do I have any predisposition to either types(manual or non) but I'm also not one of the idiots that says/does the...I'd be interested in that gun but it has a manual safety crap. My 2 favorite manual safeties are the ones on the XD line and the HKP7 squeezer.

My least favorite ones (thumb safeties)are on guns that either have long heavier da type trigger(that really don't need a thumb safety cause of the trigger essentially acting as one)..that said if it has one I don't care its all in the training
CBennett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2012, 08:53   #31
vafish
Senior Member
 
vafish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Commonwealth of Virginia
Posts: 24,323
Quote:
Originally Posted by cluznar View Post
...
I like a manual safety, it allows me to be sure the gun is safe when wearing it at home or other crowded places. .....
A manual safety doesn't do that. Only your actions will ensure that your gun is safe at home or in crowed places.

Relying on a mechanical device to provide safety is just inviting an accident.

The best safety for a gun is found between the ears of the user.
__________________
"If your plan is for one year, plant rice.
If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
If your plan is for one hundred years,
educate children." -- Confucius
vafish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2012, 17:54   #32
maestrogustav
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 223
Two word answer:

Pee

Seven
maestrogustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2012, 18:30   #33
hogship
It's MY Island
 
hogship's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Northwest territory, pardner!
Posts: 12,277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford302Glock21 View Post
I don't hear of anyone shooting themselves with glocks while reholstering. What is there to catch on in a holster? Anything can happen but this sounds like internet speculation. What is the ratio of this occurrence to the millions of glocks( XDs, sigs, hks, s&w,etc) out there?
I haven't seen it, but I have heard of it. I believe the specific example I heard of involved a holster retention strap that caught up in the trigger guard.

"Look your Glock into the holster"......that's good advice.

ooc
__________________
NRA/VFW life, Harley Davidson FXDX, very patriotic!
Old iron pumper w/pony tail, Christian, lathe artist
Stevie Ray Vaughn, Janis Joplin, Johnny Cash
Visit my Vietnam photo album, 1968-69 click on link

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
hogship is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2012, 18:37   #34
Boats
Not Assimilated
 
Boats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Somewhere in Oregon
Posts: 1,309
Best of all possible "solutions" is a constant action hammer fired pistol.

No manual safeties and you can cover the hammer with your thumb upon reholstering.
Boats is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2012, 19:01   #35
Veedubklown
Senior Member
 
Veedubklown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Northwest AZ
Posts: 2,083
Quote:
Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
I dislike manual safeties on a carry gun.

That's my personal preference. I don't mind if others use them

IDPA is not self-defense training, but if it was, I think it clearly shows that having no manual safety allows the shooter to be faster and more accurate.

It is also amusing to watch some people at IDPA stumble with their safety, either forgetting to swipe it off, or ineffectively swipping it off. Or if they have some other problem, they go back to the safey to see if it is the problem, and sometimes even swipe it back on and then try to shoot again

Having said that, I carefully look my Glock back into my holster. More careful than if it had a manual safety, more careful than with my Beretta 92. Other people have other priorities, other preferences, so they might do things differently
Alot of it boils down to personal preference. The dude the OP is talking about, is obviously a moron, and we're past that.

I have a glock 26 that was the first handgun I owned. Never had an ND with it. I also have a double-stack 1911 I shoot IDPA ESP with, and I don't have an issue with the safety selector. Mine's extended, though. It has definitely not reduced my over-all times, believe me they've gotten MUCH better. I account this to mostly the difference between a 3" barrel and a 5", and the accompanying sight radius, but the safety switch is definitely not detrimental.

It's all in how you practice. The 1911 safety is very intuitive, and I didn't really have to incorporate any further muscle movement to my draw, because your thumb sweeps there anyway. I rest my thumb over the safety, and it makes a real nice rest. I have no issues in switching back and forth between my 1911 and glock. I shoot them both well, and alot. The 1911 is just funner.

Again, personal preference, like boxers or briefs.
__________________
I don't always rock out with my glock out, but when I do, it's all the way.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Veedubklown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2012, 19:15   #36
concretefuzzynuts
Brew Crew
 
concretefuzzynuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: PNW
Posts: 6,269
Does anybody else wonder if "DaBurna" is "Cluznar" since he corrected "Radial" to "Radical" in all three of his posts? Me thinks me smell a troll.

You can't change the title of a thread. If I misspelled the title of a thread it would bother me, like it bothered Daburna enough to post three "reply" posts to correct his/her misspelling.

Just wondering.
__________________
GTDS Member #7
GOTOD Member #757
Snub Club Member #757
NRA Member
Member

Last edited by concretefuzzynuts; 05-27-2012 at 19:21..
concretefuzzynuts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2012, 19:24   #37
CAcop
Senior Member
 
CAcop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: California
Posts: 22,115
I have used both on and off duty. They both work as intended with training. And it really doesn't take much time to learn.
__________________
I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
CAcop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2012, 00:32   #38
Andrewsky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 7,780
The systems in common usage are all perfectly acceptable. It doesn't matter if the gun works like a revolver, BHP, M9, Sig, or Glock.

The worst is a DAO auto (unnecessary on an auto) or a pistol like a Nambu with a safety that is difficult to reach with the firing hand.
Andrewsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2012, 00:46   #39
Sgt127
Senior Member
 
Sgt127's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,434
I carried a 1911, and shot IPSC for the first 15 years of my cop career. About 15 years ago, they took away our personally owned weapons (mine was a Wilson Master Grade .45)

To this day, every once in awhile, when I really get in a hurry, my thumb still sweeps off an imaginary safety on my Glock. Its particularly noticable if they are using a PACT timer...something about that "beep" trips some primordial trigger in my sub conscious.

Its wierd. As soon as I do it, I know its pointless.

I was as fast with a cocked and locked gun as I am with a Glock. It became part of the trigger stroke. NOT the draw.

Now, I would probably miss the safety, I'm too used to a "point and click" trigger.
Sgt127 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2012, 01:03   #40
Nakanokalronin
JMB & MTK
 
Nakanokalronin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,431
Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post
To be more related to actuality, the safety does not come off until the the gun is well on its way to the target. But unless the safety can be opperated without any change of grip, that slows down the first shot and that could get you killed.

Thumbing off a safety like a 1911, M&P, CZ-82, P238, BHP etc is easily achived as part of the gripping technique and draw. I grip all pistols without a manual safety the same way, with a thumbs forward grip while sweeping the area where a thumb safety would be. The first shot is not slowed down in the slightest.

Yes, it works well for that when you remember to put it on safe. On those rare occasions, often following severe levels of stress, when you forget to put it on safe, you are likely to have no fall back habits that protect you from an accidental discharge.

Just because one prefers a manual safety on a pistol does not mean they rely on it. I don't flick on a safety and then jam it any old way back into a holster.

There is no nice answer to this but optional safeties, as on the 1911, can lead to a false level of confidence which is not always justified. A properly designed backstrap safety would solve all these problems if combined with a slight change of technique so that the grip safety is not depressed as the pistol is re-holstered. Unfortunately, such a pistol is not made (with the half exception of the XD which I don't know well enough to make a proper comment). Why is this? Because the 1911 grip safety proved in practice to have problems to such an extent that many had it pinned off safe. The result is that manufacturers, as prone to fashion as others, stopped designing grip safeties into their pistols.

I have no problems with grip safeties, but some do because of hand size or grip technique which is why you see people complaining about them so much. In reality, they only block the trigger so if you don't want it, pin it, buy "the answer" or buy a gun without one. The thumb safety alone is enough. There is a reason why 1911s aren't for everyone so it's great that we have so many different pistols to choose from.

The XD grip safety blocks the sear which in turn blocks the slide. It simply does exactly what the thumb safety does on a 1911 only in a passive way. To reholster without touching it, you put your thumb on the back of the slide and grip the rest of the fingers normally.

English

PS If you read what the man had to say, he had been practicing with a different holster which needed a thumb sweep to unlock it. Then he changed over to a Serpa which needed a trigger finger depression to unlock it. The thumb sweep took the pistol off safe and as the trigger finger did not properly unlock the Serpa he was trying to draw against unexpected resistance with his finger in the trigger guard. BANG! One moral of his experience is not to mix critical training habits. The other, for me and many others, is don't use a Serpa.

Many people poke their finger into the Serpa release button which does indeed promote a higher chance of the finger going into the trigger guard. If you keep your finger straight out and push in the release button that way, it's along the frame like it's suppose to be. Myself and many others draw from a holster that way no matter what brand or type it is. I have no doubt the Serpa is banned from many LE agencies and training facilites since we're talking about beginners or those that don't train as much as they should. Many cops see their gun as another piece of equipment so as long as it's with them, the minimum range time needed seems good enough.

English
Like I've said before, if you don't want to train with a thumb safety to be like second nature, then get a gun without one. Proper technique and training is what counts and the fact that nobody should rely on a mechanical device to keep a gun safe is true with any pistol. My above statements pertain to many people out there and if someone thinks a trigger tab is enough, then that's fine.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by Nakanokalronin; 05-28-2012 at 10:00..
Nakanokalronin is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:34.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 608
133 Members
475 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31