[English]

Originally Posted by Nakanokalronin

A safety does not come off nor does a finger go on the trigger until the gun is on target. He broke both rules but if he kept the safety on until the gun was on target, it would have prevented it.

To be more related to actuality, the safety does not come off until the the gun is well on its way to the target. But unless the safety can be opperated without any change of grip, that slows down the first shot and that could get you killed.

To me though, a thumb safety works best when re-holstering incase the edge of a holster or anything else gets caught in the trigger guard area. Not likely to happen but it sure can.

Yes, it works well for that when you remember to put it on safe. On those rare occasions, often following severe levels of stress, when you forget to put it on safe, you are likely to have no fall back habits that protect you from an accidental discharge.

There is no nice answer to this but optional safeties, as on the 1911, can lead to a false level of confidence which is not always justified. A properly designed backstrap safety would solve all these problems if combined with a slight change of technique so that the grip safety is not depressed as the pistol is re-holstered. Unfortunately, such a pistol is not made (with the half exception of the XD which I don't know well enough to make a proper comment). Why is this? Because the 1911 grip safety proved in practice to have problems to such an extent that many had it pinned off safe. The result is that manufacturers, as prone to fashion as others, stopped designing grip safeties into their pistols.

English

PS If you read what the man had to say, he had been practicing with a different holster which needed a thumb sweep to unlock it. Then he changed over to a Serpa which needed a trigger finger depression to unlock it. The thumb sweep took the pistol off safe and as the trigger finger did not properly unlock the Serpa he was trying to draw against unexpected resistance with his finger in the trigger guard. BANG! One moral of his experience is not to mix critical training habits. The other, for me and many others, is don't use a Serpa.

English

[fnfalman]

Depends on the safety. If it's conveniently located and operated like the M1911, CZ75, Browning Hi Power, then I'll use them. If it's something like SW or Beretta slide mounted hammer drop lever, then I'd use them to drop the hammer then flip them back up to the "Fire" position again. What's the point of leaving them in the "Safe" position in this case?

[Ford302Glock21]

Its a free country so do whatever you want either way, however, use some sound reasoning in your arguements.

I have come to a similar conclusion that I don't like safeties on my pistols. I am not a professional marksmen, leo, soldier, or secret agent that is paid to train heavily with firearms on a regular basis and can perfect a safety routine. In the unlikely and unexpected event of needing to draw my carry piece for defense, the less variables, the more likely my success. I have carried the 1911 in condition 1, and it is not near as comforting to quickly draw compared to a glock, sig, hk etc.

There are pistols that would not be considered safe to carry without a manual safety because they were designed that way. Nobody is forcing us to carry them.

I don't hear of anyone shooting themselves with glocks while reholstering. What is there to catch on in a holster? Anything can happen but this sounds like internet speculation. What is the ratio of this occurrence to the millions of glocks( XDs, sigs, hks, s&w,etc) out there?

Just because a safety lever is a good idea for some police officers does not make it good for a ccw citizen. Criminals can see the officer's weapon and try to grab. They don't know we have one until we draw from under a shirt. Don't tell me its safer because they might take it out of your hand and not know how to make it hot. If you have not removed the safety by that time, how were you planning to fire it?

How many revolvers have safety levers? Yes pretty much every long gun has a safety lever. Exactly when will you need to quickly pull a rifle out of a holster from under your shirt to protect your life?



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[English]

Ford302Glock21 - another good post.

English

[CBennett]

I LIKE them(manuAl sAfeties) but I don't think all guns need or require them nor do I have any predisposition to either types(manual or non) but I'm also not one of the idiots that says/does the...I'd be interested in that gun but it has a manual safety crap. My 2 favorite manual safeties are the ones on the XD line and the HKP7 squeezer.

My least favorite ones (thumb safeties)are on guns that either have long heavier da type trigger(that really don't need a thumb safety cause of the trigger essentially acting as one)..that said if it has one I don't care its all in the training

[vafish]

Originally Posted by cluznar

...
I like a manual safety, it allows me to be sure the gun is safe when wearing it at home or other crowded places. .....

A manual safety doesn't do that. Only your actions will ensure that your gun is safe at home or in crowed places.

Relying on a mechanical device to provide safety is just inviting an accident.

The best safety for a gun is found between the ears of the user.

[maestrogustav]

Two word answer:

Pee

Seven

[hogship]

Originally Posted by Ford302Glock21

I don't hear of anyone shooting themselves with glocks while reholstering. What is there to catch on in a holster? Anything can happen but this sounds like internet speculation. What is the ratio of this occurrence to the millions of glocks( XDs, sigs, hks, s&w,etc) out there?

I haven't seen it, but I have heard of it. I believe the specific example I heard of involved a holster retention strap that caught up in the trigger guard.

"Look your Glock into the holster"......that's good advice.

ooc

[Boats]

Best of all possible "solutions" is a constant action hammer fired pistol.

No manual safeties and you can cover the hammer with your thumb upon reholstering.

[Veedubklown]

Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer

I dislike manual safeties on a carry gun.

That's my personal preference. I don't mind if others use them

IDPA is not self-defense training, but if it was, I think it clearly shows that having no manual safety allows the shooter to be faster and more accurate.

It is also amusing to watch some people at IDPA stumble with their safety, either forgetting to swipe it off, or ineffectively swipping it off. Or if they have some other problem, they go back to the safey to see if it is the problem, and sometimes even swipe it back on and then try to shoot again

Having said that, I carefully look my Glock back into my holster. More careful than if it had a manual safety, more careful than with my Beretta 92. Other people have other priorities, other preferences, so they might do things differently

Alot of it boils down to personal preference. The dude the OP is talking about, is obviously a moron, and we're past that.

I have a glock 26 that was the first handgun I owned. Never had an ND with it. I also have a double-stack 1911 I shoot IDPA ESP with, and I don't have an issue with the safety selector. Mine's extended, though. It has definitely not reduced my over-all times, believe me they've gotten MUCH better. I account this to mostly the difference between a 3" barrel and a 5", and the accompanying sight radius, but the safety switch is definitely not detrimental.

It's all in how you practice. The 1911 safety is very intuitive, and I didn't really have to incorporate any further muscle movement to my draw, because your thumb sweeps there anyway. I rest my thumb over the safety, and it makes a real nice rest. I have no issues in switching back and forth between my 1911 and glock. I shoot them both well, and alot. The 1911 is just funner.

Again, personal preference, like boxers or briefs.

[concretefuzzynuts]

Does anybody else wonder if "DaBurna" is "Cluznar" since he corrected "Radial" to "Radical" in all three of his posts? Me thinks me smell a troll.

You can't change the title of a thread. If I misspelled the title of a thread it would bother me, like it bothered Daburna enough to post three "reply" posts to correct his/her misspelling.

Just wondering.

[CAcop]

I have used both on and off duty. They both work as intended with training. And it really doesn't take much time to learn.

[Andrewsky]

The systems in common usage are all perfectly acceptable. It doesn't matter if the gun works like a revolver, BHP, M9, Sig, or Glock.

The worst is a DAO auto (unnecessary on an auto) or a pistol like a Nambu with a safety that is difficult to reach with the firing hand.

[Sgt127]

I carried a 1911, and shot IPSC for the first 15 years of my cop career. About 15 years ago, they took away our personally owned weapons (mine was a Wilson Master Grade .45)

To this day, every once in awhile, when I really get in a hurry, my thumb still sweeps off an imaginary safety on my Glock. Its particularly noticable if they are using a PACT timer...something about that "beep" trips some primordial trigger in my sub conscious.

Its wierd. As soon as I do it, I know its pointless.

I was as fast with a cocked and locked gun as I am with a Glock. It became part of the trigger stroke. NOT the draw.

Now, I would probably miss the safety, I'm too used to a "point and click" trigger.

[Nakanokalronin]

Originally Posted by English

To be more related to actuality, the safety does not come off until the the gun is well on its way to the target. But unless the safety can be opperated without any change of grip, that slows down the first shot and that could get you killed.

Thumbing off a safety like a 1911, M&P, CZ-82, P238, BHP etc is easily achived as part of the gripping technique and draw. I grip all pistols without a manual safety the same way, with a thumbs forward grip while sweeping the area where a thumb safety would be. The first shot is not slowed down in the slightest.

Yes, it works well for that when you remember to put it on safe. On those rare occasions, often following severe levels of stress, when you forget to put it on safe, you are likely to have no fall back habits that protect you from an accidental discharge.

Just because one prefers a manual safety on a pistol does not mean they rely on it. I don't flick on a safety and then jam it any old way back into a holster.

There is no nice answer to this but optional safeties, as on the 1911, can lead to a false level of confidence which is not always justified. A properly designed backstrap safety would solve all these problems if combined with a slight change of technique so that the grip safety is not depressed as the pistol is re-holstered. Unfortunately, such a pistol is not made (with the half exception of the XD which I don't know well enough to make a proper comment). Why is this? Because the 1911 grip safety proved in practice to have problems to such an extent that many had it pinned off safe. The result is that manufacturers, as prone to fashion as others, stopped designing grip safeties into their pistols.

I have no problems with grip safeties, but some do because of hand size or grip technique which is why you see people complaining about them so much. In reality, they only block the trigger so if you don't want it, pin it, buy "the answer" or buy a gun without one. The thumb safety alone is enough. There is a reason why 1911s aren't for everyone so it's great that we have so many different pistols to choose from.

The XD grip safety blocks the sear which in turn blocks the slide. It simply does exactly what the thumb safety does on a 1911 only in a passive way. To reholster without touching it, you put your thumb on the back of the slide and grip the rest of the fingers normally.

English

PS If you read what the man had to say, he had been practicing with a different holster which needed a thumb sweep to unlock it. Then he changed over to a Serpa which needed a trigger finger depression to unlock it. The thumb sweep took the pistol off safe and as the trigger finger did not properly unlock the Serpa he was trying to draw against unexpected resistance with his finger in the trigger guard. BANG! One moral of his experience is not to mix critical training habits. The other, for me and many others, is don't use a Serpa.

Many people poke their finger into the Serpa release button which does indeed promote a higher chance of the finger going into the trigger guard. If you keep your finger straight out and push in the release button that way, it's along the frame like it's suppose to be. Myself and many others draw from a holster that way no matter what brand or type it is. I have no doubt the Serpa is banned from many LE agencies and training facilites since we're talking about beginners or those that don't train as much as they should. Many cops see their gun as another piece of equipment so as long as it's with them, the minimum range time needed seems good enough.

English

Like I've said before, if you don't want to train with a thumb safety to be like second nature, then get a gun without one. Proper technique and training is what counts and the fact that nobody should rely on a mechanical device to keep a gun safe is true with any pistol. My above statements pertain to many people out there and if someone thinks a trigger tab is enough, then that's fine.