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Old 05-06-2012, 15:19   #226
elandil
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
So you're arguing what you want the law to be, while we are arguing what it really is? I guess that means we win. Innocent until proven guilty applies during the critical stages of trial, not to the entire justice system (or else we wouldn't arrest people and hold them in jail, sometimes for years, before they have a trial).

Treating people like criminals when there is enough evidence to reasionably suspect them of being criminals is how we prevent crimes.
No, innocent until proven guilty is the basis behind the whole judicial system.

Last edited by elandil; 05-06-2012 at 15:39..
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Old 05-06-2012, 15:24   #227
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Appeal to Emotion with a sprinkling of Strawman.

Asking for identification is not treating someone like a criminal.
Thats a matter for opinion, not fact. In this my opinion differs.

Fact is that any officer can ask anything he wants. He cannot demand or compel without PC or RAS. Do you disagree?

And where exactly does the strawman part come in?
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Old 05-06-2012, 15:26   #228
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Originally Posted by elandil View Post
Thats a matter for opinion, not fact. In this my opinion differs.

Fact is that any officer can ask anything he wants. He cannot demand or compel without PC or RAS. Do you disagree?

And where exactly does the strawman part come in?
You equate a LE Officer performing the simple step of asking for identification as "treating me like a criminal".

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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 05-06-2012, 15:37   #229
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I wasn't the one you asked for that. In my previous responses, you'll see plenty of explanation for why they needed ID from him after he created a suspicion that his permit wasn't valid o wasn't his. I have never claimed that they acted on a state or federal ID statute, although some states have them (Nevada being the best known one to reach the Supreme Court).

I am not a professor (although I have taught a college class on law enforcement); the classes I teach are mainly police and corrections academy classes. I am primarily a government attorney who actually litigates these issues in state and federal courts. As for being "a lawyer now" - I've been posting here for over 7 years, so that is pretty much common knowledge by now; there are even Glock Talk members I have given legal training to in the real world. You have 57 posts - mostly in this thread - so you may not know that.
You are correct, and I seem to be juggling so many responses that I am losing track and missing posts.

I do retract that request from you. It should have been directed at TBO.

And you are correct, I do not know your bonafides. As I stated earlier, I lurked for the last year and a half. I'm sure that there is a lot I have missed.

However, can you please explain to me how his actions created suspicion? It seems we are seeing two different sides of the same coin, and I would like to know what your reasoning is behind it.
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Old 05-06-2012, 15:37   #230
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Originally Posted by elandil View Post
No, innocent until proven guilty is the basis behind the whole judicial system. You should know that, prof.
I know a lot about it. You, very obviously, do not.

I'm starting to wonder, due to your lack of even basic legal knowledge on the issue and the way you keep changing the facts around, if you are seriously even trying to argue the issue. Seems almost more likely that you are just having fun spouting "no it's not" back at people to keep things stirred up.
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Old 05-06-2012, 15:37   #231
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You equate a LE Officer performing the simple step of asking for identification as "treating me like a criminal".


Yes, and I stated thats my opinion. What is your point?
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Old 05-06-2012, 15:48   #232
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Yes, and I stated thats my opinion. What is your point?
What is your basis of knowledge/experience in how criminals are treated?
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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 05-06-2012, 15:49   #233
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I know a lot about it. You, very obviously, do not.

I'm starting to wonder, due to your lack of even basic legal knowledge on the issue and the way you keep changing the facts around, if you are seriously even trying to argue the issue. Seems almost more likely that you are just having fun spouting "no it's not" back at people to keep things stirred up.
What facts have I changed?

And yes, Coffin V US upheld that the basis behind our judicial system was innocent until proven guilty.

I have answered every question posted to me, citing relevant case law to back up any facts I've stated. As for my opinions, they are in fact my opinions. The fact that they may differ from yours is irrelevant.
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Old 05-06-2012, 15:52   #234
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What is your basis of knowledge/experience in how criminals are treated?
A study of the laws I'm subject to, including debate with legal advisors, lawyers, common lay people, and law enforcement officers, and yes, people guilty of committing crimes. Plus the aforementioned 5 years of dealing with the judicial system over a identity theft which started me down this road.

Whats yours?
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Old 05-06-2012, 16:04   #235
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20+ years of treating people like criminals, when they are criminals.
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"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."

"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters".

"A person who won't reason has no advantage over one who can't reason."

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."

“Ignorance is a lot like alcohol: the more you have of it, the less you are able to see its effect on you.”


Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 05-06-2012, 16:48   #236
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The case is Proescher v Hanna et al, Case Number: 1:2012cv01459, in the Northern District of GA.

Perhaps Mr. P would be so good as to post the document, so we could consider his submitted facts and allegations instead of chasing our tails about stuff that may not even be at issue. Failing that, maybe someone with a justia account could grab up the public record.

Is there a reason that the filing hasn't been put on the boards? (Genuine question, since I see the police reports up.)
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Old 05-06-2012, 17:01   #237
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The case is Proescher v Hanna et al, Case Number: 1:2012cv01459, in the Northern District of GA.

Perhaps Mr. P would be so good as to post the document, so we could consider his submitted facts and allegations instead of chasing our tails about stuff that may not even be at issue. Failing that, maybe someone with a justia account could grab up the public record.

Is there a reason that the filing hasn't been put on the boards? (Genuine question, since I see the police reports up.)
If I was a betting man, I would be willing to put a wager that the parties involved (plaintiff and defendants) have probably been instructed by legal counsel not to.
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Old 05-06-2012, 17:10   #238
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20+ years of treating people like criminals, when they are criminals.
That leads me to ask two things.

1-How do you treat innocent people?
2-How do you tell the difference?

And I'm not asking to be a smartaleck, I would seriously like to know.
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Old 05-06-2012, 17:11   #239
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Originally Posted by elandil View Post
If I was a betting man, I would be willing to put a wager that the parties involved (plaintiff and defendants) have probably been instructed by legal counsel not to.
elandil, need to pay attention to every word in a post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
The case is Proescher v Hanna et al, Case Number: 1:2012cv01459, in the Northern District of GA.

Perhaps Mr. P would be so good as to post the document, so we could consider his submitted facts and allegations instead of chasing our tails about stuff that may not even be at issue. Failing that, maybe someone with a justia account could grab up the public record.

Is there a reason that the filing hasn't been put on the boards? (Genuine question, since I see the police reports up.)
The filing is available to anyone who subscribes to Justia. It is of public record if you want to pay to read it.
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Last edited by RussP; 05-06-2012 at 17:12..
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Old 05-06-2012, 17:22   #240
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
I gather that he's fairly active in the OC world, and works/worked at a gun shop. Have you had any dealings with him that might shed light on this episode?
Annnd I missed my chance to talk to him today. Could have had I showed up earlier.

Some other folks were there, however.

The Georgia Carry forum will have quite a few guys/gals who have talked to him. There's quite the thread about it, too.
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Old 05-06-2012, 17:23   #241
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What Russ said. This isn't a national security/espionage case. All filings, motions and responses are public record.
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Old 05-06-2012, 17:31   #242
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elandil, need to pay attention to every word in a post.The filing is available to anyone who subscribes to Justia. It is of public record if you want to pay to read it.
Yes it is.

I did not answer that part of the post because I did not have an opinion about it.
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Old 05-06-2012, 17:50   #243
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Annnd I missed my chance to talk to him today. Could have had I showed up earlier.

Some other folks were there, however.

The Georgia Carry forum will have quite a few guys/gals who have talked to him. There's quite the thread about it, too.

sorry, but i'm gonna be a little nitpicky here.

www.GeorgiaCarry.org does not have a forum.

However, www.georgiapacking.org does have a forum. A lot of GCO members do post there, as do non members. And the discussion was posted earlier by RussP for anyone who wishes to peruse it. Any who wish to join it is more than welcome.

GCO is a 501c3 grassroots organization dedicated to fighting for Georgia's gun laws. GPDO is a privately ran website. There is no association between the two, and the opinions posted on GPDO do not reflect the opinions of GCO.
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Old 05-06-2012, 18:15   #244
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Yes it is.

I did not answer that part of the post because I did not have an opinion about it.
Since the entire post was about the filed document, I guess the question is, "What part did your post respond to?"
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Old 05-06-2012, 18:20   #245
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Since the entire post was about the filed document, I guess the question is, "What part did your post respond to?"
Reasons as to why the plaintiff or defendants may not be posting anything to defend their actions. That I felt I could offer an opinion on. Why anyone outside the plaintiffs, defendants, or their council who could access has not posted I cannot say.

I will say, I don't have a justia account, or a way of getting a justia account, else I would have done so.
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Old 05-06-2012, 18:23   #246
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Originally Posted by jabara572
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1419229&page=2

Quote:
"I hope his BS lawsuit costs him a bundle and gets him nothing. People like this are the worst enemies shooters and gun owners have - they can do more harm than any lefty anti-gunner. What makes a bigger impression, a hippie saying people with guns are nuts, or a real live example of a nut with a gun?"
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wow.... just wow, what is wrong with these people?
Easy answer, they post on GlockTalk and they carry Tupperware pistols.

I kid, I kid, I'm a member on GlockTalk and I own a G23.
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Old 05-06-2012, 18:27   #247
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Originally Posted by elandil View Post
That leads me to ask two things.

1-How do you treat innocent people?

Definition of INNOCENT

1
a : free from guilt or sin especially through lack of knowledge of evil : blameless <an innocent child> b : harmless in effect or intention <searching for a hidden motive in even the most innocent conversation — Leonard Wibberley>; also : candid <gave me an innocent gaze> c : free from legal guilt or fault; also : lawful <a wholly innocent transaction>

2
a : lacking or reflecting a lack of sophistication, guile, or self-consciousness : artless, ingenuous b : ignorant <almost entirely innocent of Latin — C. L. Wrenn>; also : unaware <perfectly innocent of the confusion he had created — B. R. Haydon>

3
: lacking or deprived of something <her face innocent of cosmetics — Marcia Davenport>

A. I don't believe innocent is quiet the proper term for the average citizen out and about in their daily life.

I believe it would be better to describe someone who, to the best of their knowledge, is not or has not recently commited a violation of law (knowingly).

In that case, my treatment of people is very similar. Respectful dialouge and interaction.





2-How do you tell the difference?
A. By conducting an Investigation.

And I'm not asking to be a smartaleck, I would seriously like to know.
.......
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"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters".

"A person who won't reason has no advantage over one who can't reason."

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."

“Ignorance is a lot like alcohol: the more you have of it, the less you are able to see its effect on you.”


Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 05-06-2012, 18:36   #248
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....A. I don't believe innocent is quiet the proper term for the average citizen out and about in their daily life.

I believe it would be better to describe someone who, to the best of their knowledge, is not or has not recently commited a violation of law (knowingly).


In that case, my treatment of people is very similar. Respectful dialouge and interaction.



...
I think I see the issue here. You use the wrong dictionary. try this one on for size.

Quote:
in·no·cent

   /ˈɪnəsənt/ Show Spelled[in-uh-suhnt] Show IPA
adjective 1. free from moral wrong; without sin; pure: innocent children.
2. free from legal or specific wrong; guiltless: innocent of the crime.
3. not involving evil intent or motive: an innocent misrepresentation.
4. not causing physical or moral injury; harmless: innocent fun.
5. devoid (usually followed by of ): a law innocent of merit.









The way I read your post, you feel everyone is guilty of something. Does that mean you feel everyone is a criminal?
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Old 05-06-2012, 18:52   #249
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i think in GA the law is all adults have to have issued id on them when off there property, and i know if law enforcement ask for id you have to provide, if he had just given the officer the id and carry permit nothing would have happend
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Old 05-06-2012, 18:53   #250
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I will say, I don't have a justia account, or a way of getting a justia account, else I would have done so.
http://www.pacer.gov/register.html
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