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Old 04-29-2012, 21:22   #141
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zbusdriver is looking like he does indeed know the area.
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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 04-29-2012, 21:30   #142
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It seems like there is a lot of arguing over irrelevant (to the topic) information. Who cares if the guy didn't actually lose the gun? The point is, in this situation, it seems that the OCer was specifically targeted because he had an openly exposed gun. The BG obviously wasn't scared, and was confident in his ability to get the gun.

Personally, I've worked LE and can agree with 1811 on his points. Unfortunately, many people do fit right in with what he said. That does NOT mean all people do, but many do. I've spoken with a lot of idiots who open carry and/or concealed carry. It does not make someone a trustworthy, upstanding person because they carry a gun legally.

I've also met quite a few criminals who could not give a rats butt about your gun, and will not be deterred at all. They do the same crap to each other day in and day out, full well knowing they could be murdered over it, so why would they be fearful of you?
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What do they do?
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Originally Posted by Warp View Post
He could be referring to any number of things, and those different things would be differently relevant to this topic. I can either assume to know what he is alluding to or I can ask him. I opted to ask for clarification.
Okay...I relied on the information in the first paragraph being what he meant in the last paragraph.
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Old 04-29-2012, 21:34   #143
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Okay...I relied on the information in the first paragraph being what he meant in the last paragraph.
Criminals open carry, and are attacked by other criminals for the gun, day in and day out? This is news to me.
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Old 04-29-2012, 21:43   #144
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That's my take on most open carriers. They think that open carry will scare the bejesus out of any criminal who sees them, and that thugs will wet their pants, rather than try and rob a person with a gun showing, and this will supercede any need for alertness or SA.
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It's much the same way concealed carriers are likely to feel when people start spouting about how they carry a gun to make up for having small genitals, or because they need a gun to give them a leg up in all of the drunken confrontations they get into with their fellow billy baddass troublemakers.
Why do you keep harping on series1811's comments, escalating the situation, when he subsequently posted:
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Well, I didn't mean it to insulting and if it came out like that, I apologize.

What I meant was, that normal, nice, regular people, who are the kind of people who OC, don't get mixed up enough with really bad people, to see just how bad they are. For police, that is our job, to get mixed up with really bad people.

I really don't want to see any good people get hurt. That's the whole point of carrying a gun.

But, if you took it that way, maybe others did, too. And, I do apologize.
He apologized...let it go.
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Old 04-29-2012, 21:44   #145
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zbusdriver is looking like he does indeed know the area.
Yep...
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Old 04-29-2012, 21:44   #146
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It seems to me that he was going to go in a direction that pointed out how some criminals do dangerous things, and expose themselves to great risk, on a regular basis. However, I don't want to assume too much and I want to see exactly how it is tied together before I ask more questions or comment further.

I have a feeling that the motives behind the various risk exposures being referenced will vary from the motive behind a gun grab.
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Old 04-29-2012, 21:50   #147
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It seems like there is a lot of arguing over irrelevant (to the topic) information. Who cares if the guy didn't actually lose the gun? The point is, in this situation, it seems that the OCer was specifically targeted because he had an openly exposed gun. The BG obviously wasn't scared, and was confident in his ability to get the gun.

Personally, I've worked LE and can agree with 1811 on his points. Unfortunately, many people do fit right in with what he said. That does NOT mean all people do, but many do. I've spoken with a lot of idiots who open carry and/or concealed carry. It does not make someone a trustworthy, upstanding person because they carry a gun legally.

I've also met quite a few criminals who could not give a rats butt about your gun, and will not be deterred at all. They do the same crap to each other day in and day out, full well knowing they could be murdered over it, so why would they be fearful of you?
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Criminals open carry, and are attacked by other criminals for the gun, day in and day out? This is news to me.
How's that, Warp...

"Criminals open carry, and are attacked by other criminals for the gun, day in and day out? This is news to me.
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Last edited by RussP; 04-29-2012 at 21:51..
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Old 04-29-2012, 22:07   #148
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
How's that, Warp...

"Criminals open carry, and are attacked by other criminals for the gun, day in and day out? This is news to me.
Criminals are attacked by other criminals. Yes. All the time. For many reasons, the majority of which would not seem to apply to the situation at hand.

Examples: Criminals attack other criminals because they are members of rival gangs, because they are competing for business (drug sales, etc), because they know the other criminal(s) won't call the police to report it, because they have drugs/large amounts of cash on them, because the other guy dis'd them, etc.

What I don't see is what of the above, or the many other reasons I left out, is relevant, and how.

Also, it strikes me as very odd that in order to make your point you have to completely cross out the "open carry" part. Isn't that the basis of this thread and this discussion? Open carry of a firearm?? How relevant can something be when you have to remove the open carry aspect?
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Old 04-29-2012, 22:09   #149
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I'm going to post my .02 cents and will probably get my nose broken. I didn't read all the posts so it may have been said, but the police didn't stop the robbery either.
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Old 04-29-2012, 22:21   #150
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What, then would be a/the motive?
We don't know if there was a motive. If there was one, some of the more plausible motives would include fencing the gun for street value or the need for protection against another hood rat.

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Old 04-29-2012, 22:30   #151
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"secure the weapon and return it to the victim" sure sounds like the victim was relieved of his property at some point. Yes, I know it's a bit tangential.
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Old 04-29-2012, 22:36   #152
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We don't know if there was a motive. If there was one, some of the more plausible motives would include fencing the gun for street value or the need for protection against another hoodrat.
An attack such as this with no motive defies belief. And both of your offered reasons (which I tend to agree with,BTW) depend on the turd knowing that the victim was a source of a gun at that particular time and place. Such would not likely be the case if the gun were concealed.
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Old 04-29-2012, 22:58   #153
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An attack such as this with no motive defies belief. And both of your offered reasons (which I tend to agree with,BTW) depend on the turd knowing that the victim was a source of a gun at that particular time and place. Such would not likely be the case if the gun were concealed.
True.
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Old 04-29-2012, 23:56   #154
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I've also met quite a few criminals who could not give a rats butt about your gun, and will not be deterred at all. They do the same crap to each other day in and day out, full well knowing they could be murdered over it, so why would they be fearful of you?
I recently attended a training re: police officer assaults. In each case uniformed officers were attacked or killed by perpetrators who had no fear of them or their training or weapons. In some cases the officer ultimately prevailed in some the BG. They did interviews with the surviving BG's and they are indeed a different breed. The deterrent factor for them wasn't that the officer had a gun or not, but their SA, command presence and the "psychic" (as referred to earlier) sizing up.

Clearly there are some criminals that would be deterred by the sight of a gun, but also predators who see it as little more than an inconvenience if not an opportunity or challenge. In those cases, dealing with the true 1% ers, I would much prefer to have my cards close to my vest and the advantage of my concealed weapon.

I mentioned in another thread a while back about being in a movie theater with an OCer. I wasn't familiar with him or his training or tactics, for all I know he could have been Chuck Norris' brother. What I do know and personally observed was that he garnered a lot of attention from a rather undesirable looking group. As I watched both he and the other observers, it became apparent to me that he had no idea that they were studying him. I'm sure he noticed the moms & pops next to him in line looking at his rig and felt he was sufficiently aware of his surroundings, but the ones who I would have considered actual threats to him were out of sight, out of mind.

By OCing he put himself at a disadvantage that I prefer not to be in. If something bad had happened would I have said be "caused" it? No, but I would also have been glad he'd be the first focus of attention, not me. Sometimes I don't get the option, working in uniform, in a marked police car, but I also realize in those situations that I have to be 1k x more aware of what's happening around me and act accordingly.
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Old 04-30-2012, 00:07   #155
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"secure the weapon and return it to the victim" sure sounds like the victim was relieved of his property at some point. Yes, I know it's a bit tangential.
I would consider any situation where someone was handing my weapon back to me after an altercation to have been a complete and utter failure to perform at some level. I would also consider the failure to have occurred long before the BG even put his hand on the weapon.

Whether the BG had possession of it at some point or whether it was loose on the ground or whether the third party took control of it to prevent the BG from getting it would be irrelevant.
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The other night there was a loud argument in the hall outside my apartment while I was trying to sleep. I went out and told them they better leave or I was gonna use some Kung-Fu... THAT scared them off...

Plus I was totally nekkid and holding a gun.
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Old 04-30-2012, 04:19   #156
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He could be referring to any number of things, and those different things would be differently relevant to this topic. I can either assume to know what he is alluding to or I can ask him. I opted to ask for clarification.




I cannot speak for others, but it is statements like this that pique my attention:




It's much the same way concealed carriers are likely to feel when people start spouting about how they carry a gun to make up for having small genitals, or because they need a gun to give them a leg up in all of the drunken confrontations they get into with their fellow billy baddass troublemakers.
Well, we haven't really brought it up, and I really am not trying to offend you, but to just take the discussion to another level.

I think you know who the cops are here, and what it is in our experience that has given us our particular opinions. Out of curiosity, what is your basis of experience for your opinion?

If that bothers you to say, just forget the whole thing, and pretend I didn't ask.
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Old 04-30-2012, 05:23   #157
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I'll even go first. When I started law enforcement, I had some pretty good ideas, I thought, about criminals, and how they operated, and how they thought and what they wanted, and what they were scared of, and stuff like that. I found out that I was wrong on every single one of my ideas.

My very first murder case (and I only helped) was a real eye opener. It started when a guy named Skeet started selling PCP in this bar (he would tell everyone it was synthetic cocaine). Now, before, I got in LE, I would have found it hard to believe that someone could walk around a bar, selling PCP, for months in a row, and nobody would report him. But, he did, and no one did.

Now he happened to sell a hit of PCP to a guy named Marvin for $7, his normal price. Only, Marvin had a ten dollar bill, and Skeet didn't have $3 in change on him so he told Marvin he would get it to him later.
I wouldn't have thought before LE, that a drug deal could work that way, but it did.

Now, Marvin, now high on PCP, comes back to Skeet several times, asking for his $3, and getting more and more irritated every time Skeet told him he didn't have it. Now, me, knowing that Marvin was high on PCP, and getting more irritated, I would have found $3 somewhere and gave it to him. Skeet didn't do that.

Skeet finally told Marvin to "Get the Heck (another word, really) out of my face before I Heck you up." I would not have said that, but Skeet did.

At this point, in front of 25 witnesses, Marvin pulls out a very large knife and tells Skeet to give him his $3 or he will stab him in the heart. Now, I would never pull a knife on someone in front of 25 witnesses and tell them I would stab them in the heart if they didn't give me $3. But, Marvin did.

Skeet at this point, says, "I don't believe you have the guts to use that knife or stab me (or words to that effect). Now, I wouldn't have said that, especially knowing that I had just sold him PCP, which he had probably taken, and knowing that guts was not the controlling factor here, but rather PCP psychosis was likely the controlling factor. But, Skeet did.

Marvin then proceeds to take his knife and in front of 25 witnesses, stabs Skeet in the heart, leading one witness to utter the tag line in our office for six months "He done stabbed Skeet. Skeet be dead." Now, I wouldn't have stabbed a man to death over $3 in front of 25 witnesses. Marvin did.

Next Marvin ran, after cleverly throwing the knife to the ground in front of the witnesses, conveniently leaving his fingerprints on it. Now, if I had just stabbed a guy for $3, in front of 25 witnesses, I would not throw the murder weapon down in front of them. I think I would take it with me. Marvin did.

Then, Marvin went home and went to be. Again, if I had just committed a murder, I don't think I would go home and go to bed, like nothing had happened. Marvin did.

Then, when arrested, Marvin proceeded to tell the above story to the police, and seemed shocked when he was given life in prison. I wouldn't have been shocked. Marvin was.

My point to this long rambling story is that, criminals asses risks completely differently than normal people do. I had to find this out for myself, because I went into law enforcement thinking that they, despite being criminals, pretty much thought the same way I did.

And, then I learned, that about 90 percent of career criminals, are sociopaths. And, believe me, when you are dealing with a sociopath, the first thing you have to do is throw out every rule you know about how normal people act, react, think, and everything else.

So, if you have had a job where you deal with sociopaths on a regular basis (cop, lawyer, wall street broker, whatever), you begin to understand how they think, and it is way different from the people you normally hang out with.
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Old 04-30-2012, 05:51   #158
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An attack such as this with no motive defies belief. And both of your offered reasons (which I tend to agree with,BTW) depend on the turd knowing that the victim was a source of a gun at that particular time and place. Such would not likely be the case if the gun were concealed.
I agree, open carry provided an opportunity. See post #127.

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Old 04-30-2012, 05:56   #159
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"secure the weapon and return it to the victim" sure sounds like the victim was relieved of his property at some point. Yes, I know it's a bit tangential.
I took that to mean either 1) neither the victim nor the suspect had control of the weapon; or 2) the third man took possession away from both the victim and suspect.
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:09   #160
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I'll even go first. When I started law enforcement, I had some pretty good ideas, I thought, about criminals, and how they operated, and how they thought and what they wanted, and what they were scared of, and stuff like that. I found out that I was wrong on every single one of my ideas.

My very first murder case (and I only helped) was a real eye opener. It started when a guy named Skeet started selling PCP in this bar (he would tell everyone it was synthetic cocaine). Now, before, I got in LE, I would have found it hard to believe that someone could walk around a bar, selling PCP, for months in a row, and nobody would report him. But, he did, and no one did.

Now he happened to sell a hit of PCP to a guy named Marvin for $7, his normal price. Only, Marvin had a ten dollar bill, and Skeet didn't have $3 in change on him so he told Marvin he would get it to him later.
I wouldn't have thought before LE, that a drug deal could work that way, but it did.

Now, Marvin, now high on PCP, comes back to Skeet several times, asking for his $3, and getting more and more irritated every time Skeet told him he didn't have it. Now, me, knowing that Marvin was high on PCP, and getting more irritated, I would have found $3 somewhere and gave it to him. Skeet didn't do that.

Skeet finally told Marvin to "Get the Heck (another word, really) out of my face before I Heck you up." I would not have said that, but Skeet did.

At this point, in front of 25 witnesses, Marvin pulls out a very large knife and tells Skeet to give him his $3 or he will stab him in the heart. Now, I would never pull a knife on someone in front of 25 witnesses and tell them I would stab them in the heart if they didn't give me $3. But, Marvin did.

Skeet at this point, says, "I don't believe you have the guts to use that knife or stab me (or words to that effect). Now, I wouldn't have said that, especially knowing that I had just sold him PCP, which he had probably taken, and knowing that guts was not the controlling factor here, but rather PCP psychosis was likely the controlling factor. But, Skeet did.

Marvin then proceeds to take his knife and in front of 25 witnesses, stabs Skeet in the heart, leading one witness to utter the tag line in our office for six months "He done stabbed Skeet. Skeet be dead." Now, I wouldn't have stabbed a man to death over $3 in front of 25 witnesses. Marvin did.

Next Marvin ran, after cleverly throwing the knife to the ground in front of the witnesses, conveniently leaving his fingerprints on it. Now, if I had just stabbed a guy for $3, in front of 25 witnesses, I would not throw the murder weapon down in front of them. I think I would take it with me. Marvin did.

Then, Marvin went home and went to be. Again, if I had just committed a murder, I don't think I would go home and go to bed, like nothing had happened. Marvin did.

Then, when arrested, Marvin proceeded to tell the above story to the police, and seemed shocked when he was given life in prison. I wouldn't have been shocked. Marvin was.

My point to this long rambling story is that, criminals asses risks completely differently than normal people do. I had to find this out for myself, because I went into law enforcement thinking that they, despite being criminals, pretty much thought the same way I did.

And, then I learned, that about 90 percent of career criminals, are sociopaths. And, believe me, when you are dealing with a sociopath, the first thing you have to do is throw out every rule you know about how normal people act, react, think, and everything else.

So, if you have had a job where you deal with sociopaths on a regular basis (cop, lawyer, wall street broker, whatever), you begin to understand how they think, and it is way different from the people you normally hang out with.
Excellent post, thank you for sharing.
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