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Old 04-28-2012, 15:22   #101
RussP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Your post...I find it to be inaccurate and, more importantly, written primarily with the intention of insulting others GT members.
First, what other GT members do you believe a statement about over reliance on the deterrence factor of open carry against criminals and thugs would the statement insult?

Do you disagree that there are people who actually believe wearing a weapon openly significantly reduces their risk of being a victim? Have people here and on other forums not listed deterrence as the #1 benefit of OC?

Have people who open carry cited the lack of reports of open carriers being victimized as proof of the deterrent value of open carry?

Have people who open carry offered personal experiences where someone they felt were preparing to victimize them changed their minds when they saw the openly carried firearm?

Inaccurate, well, I think exaggerated would be more correct. Does the sight of a pistol on a guy's hip scare the bejesus out of a criminal? How about scare the crap out of a criminal? Would you prefer saying that open carry intimidates criminals? No, can't admit that open carry intimidates people - scratch intimidate.

Thugs wetting their pants...another exaggeration.

And, yes, I too believe that some of those OCers who list deterrence as their main reason for OC, yeah, they may not be as SA conscious as they should be.

HOWEVER, on the other side are those who are constantly looking at other people for their reactions to seeing them toting a pistol on their belt. They have posted about it here in Carry Issues.

Other websites have far more examples of people like series1811 is talking about than GT. Five or six years ago, yep, GT had its hardcore deterrent-focused OCers. A few of them are still here, they just don't post about it these days.

For the record, in the almost ten years that I have carried openly, I have had 6 events where I believe the sight of my open carried firearm caused bad guys to change their mind about committing a crime. So, yes, I too believe there are criminals smart enough to not go up against a guy carrying a gun. Do I OC because of that? Hell no. I rely on me to keep me out of trouble. The pistol is for use as a last resort, not to scare the bejesus out of someone, or cause them to wet their pants just because they saw my holstered weapon. Now, staring into the muzzle end of the barrel, that's a different story.

Okay, has anyone found any NEW news about the original topic?
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Old 04-28-2012, 15:28   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
First, what other GT members do you believe a statement about over reliance on the deterrence factor of open carry against criminals and thugs would the statement insult?
Based on what was stated in the post..."most who open carry"


Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Do you disagree that there are people who actually believe wearing a weapon openly significantly reduces their risk of being a victim? Have people here and on other forums not listed deterrence as the #1 benefit of OC?
"reduces the risk of being a victim" is what what the post I quoted said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post

Have people who open carry cited the lack of reports of open carriers being victimized as proof of the deterrent value of open carry?
That is also not what the post I quoted said.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Have people who open carry offered personal experiences where someone they felt were preparing to victimize them changed their minds when they saw the openly carried firearm?
That is not what the post I quoted said.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Inaccurate, well, I think exaggerated would be more correct.
I think exaggerated is an under statement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Does the sight of a pistol on a guy's hip scare the bejesus out of a criminal? How about scare the crap out of a criminal? Would you prefer saying that open carry intimidates criminals? No, can't admit that open carry intimidates people - scratch intimidate.
Why can't you say that?

I am sure there are some people out there intimidated by the sight of a firearm, even if it is on the hip of a uniformed and on duty law enforcement officer. The % of the population that qualifies here seems to be pretty low and also seems to vary my location/region. Also, for some of them it's hard to tell if they are more afraid of the gun or of the police officer carrying it, and if they are afraid of/intimidated by an open carrier if a belief that that carrier is in fact a police officer is part of the reason for their fear.


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Thugs wetting their pants...another exaggeration.
You think?



Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Other websites have far more examples of people like series1811 is talking about than GT. Five or six years ago, yep, GT had its hardcore deterrent-focused OCers. A few of them are still here, they just don't post about it these days.
I think they got tired of being personally insulted in every other thread. But that's just my opinion.
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Last edited by Warp; 04-28-2012 at 15:30..
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Old 04-28-2012, 15:48   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Based on what was stated in the post..."most who open carry"

"reduces the risk of being a victim" is what what the post I quoted said.

That is also not what the post I quoted said.

That is not what the post I quoted said.

I think exaggerated is an under statement.

Why can't you say that?

I am sure there are some people out there intimidated by the sight of a firearm, even if it is on the hip of a uniformed and on duty law enforcement officer. The % of the population that qualifies here seems to be pretty low and also seems to vary my location/region. Also, for some of them it's hard to tell if they are more afraid of the gun or of the police officer carrying it, and if they are afraid of/intimidated by an open carrier if a belief that that carrier is in fact a police officer is part of the reason for their fear.

You think?

I think they got tired of being personally insulted in every other thread. But that's just my opinion.
Thanks for your response...

Now, lets get back to the original topic please.
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Old 04-28-2012, 15:58   #104
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Thanks for your response...

Now, lets get back to the original topic please.
One more thing while I have your attention on this topic.

Do you recall a few years ago when I posted about an 'incident' regarding open carry at a local Bass Pro Shop? I think I posted it in one of the "open carry stories/experiences" threads but people talked about it enough that you spun it off into its own thread. I am trying to locate that thread but have been unable to so far.

Do you think you could find it for me, please? I wish to start a thread about that store and recent events while referencing what happened prior.


/slight thread derailment
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Old 04-28-2012, 16:02   #105
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That is one reason I am not a big fan of open carry. I do try to make myself aware of my surroundings but sometimes you just can't see everything that is around you.
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Old 04-28-2012, 17:32   #106
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So what is your basis of experience for your opinion?

Sorry, I was told quite pointedly to stop trolling.
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Old 04-28-2012, 21:13   #107
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Fact remains, out of all the targets that could have been chosen, he went after the guy with a gun, to get a gun. Ann Arbor is a college town; you can't tell me that there weren't plenty of valuables to be found in the area. That OC caused this, or at least was responsible to a great degree for the selection of that victim at that time, is a pretty self-evident. conclusion.
The victim of the assault is at fault because they had the audacity to possess something that the assailant wanted? For real? The assailant isn't responsible for his actions; the victim's gun made home do it.
By your logic then, victims of carjackings are to blame for driving their cars. I find your logic flawed. Conclusion.


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Old 04-28-2012, 21:21   #108
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No, open carry did not prevent this.
Situational awareness would have prevented this.

I support both CC and OC and do both.

Just out of curiosity, compare OC'ing of a firearm and OC'ing of a claw hammer or driving a nice vehicle and explain how the victim is any more at fault. Should we outlaw OC of hammers? Maybe cell phones, or pocket knives, or watches, or baseball caps... Let's quit trying to demonize the law abiding citizens. Yes, a handgun is an expensive deadly weapon, and so is a car. We don't blame the owner of a Lexus and call the driving of an expensive car irresponsible in a car jacking. I'm not attacking anybody's thoughts on this, I just don't understand the rationale or the inconsistency.

The questions are not directed at Mr. Spade specifically, but the GT masses in general.
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Old 04-28-2012, 21:25   #109
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Originally Posted by JPG221 View Post
The victim of the assault is at fault because they had the audacity to possess something that the assailant wanted? For real? The assailant isn't responsible for his actions; the victim's gun made home do it.
By your logic then, victims of carjackings are to blame for driving their cars. I find your logic flawed. Conclusion.


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from Michigan.

You are daring jumping in for your first post on this subject, but I agree with you.

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Old 04-28-2012, 21:49   #110
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from Michigan.

You are daring jumping in for your first post on this subject, but I agree with you.
Thanks for the welcome. Probably wasn't the best way to introduce myself. /apologies


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Old 04-28-2012, 22:28   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Fact remains, out of all the targets that could have been chosen, he went after the guy with a gun, to get a gun. ...That OC caused this, or at least was responsible to a great degree for the selection of that victim at that time, is a pretty self-evident. conclusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPG221 View Post
The victim of the assault is at fault because they had the audacity to possess something that the assailant wanted? For real? The assailant isn't responsible for his actions; the victim's gun made home do it.
By your logic then, victims of carjackings are to blame for driving their cars. I find your logic flawed. Conclusion.
"Conclusion." Does that mean your word is to be the last on this topic?

By the way, welcome to Glock Talk. I see that's your first post.

Stripping out some words, paraphrasing a bit, Sam said this:
"Of all the targets, he went after the guy with the gun to get the gun. The act of open carrying was responsible for the selection of that victim.
I believe there is nothing untrue about that.

Did the victim cause the suspect to attack him? No, there is no indication the victim provoked the attack.

Did the victim's mere possession of a firearm cause the suspect's attack on him? Possibly, but merely possessing may not have.

Did the fact the victim carried the firearm in plain sight influence the suspect's decision to attack? I believe, positively yes, it did and was the deciding factor.

While no person other than the suspect is responsible for his action, the firearm in plain sight gave him opportunity and motive to execute his action. Make the firearm invisible and you eliminate the desired target.

Your carjacking analogy is too dissimilar. How about an analogy where someone is wearing a Rolex Oyster, or a Breitling - Navitimer, or a Vacheron Constantin - Royal Eagle. Does wearing a $7,000 to $9,000 watch...

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Old 04-28-2012, 23:13   #112
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Your carjacking analogy is too dissimilar. How about an analogy where someone is wearing a Rolex Oyster, or a Breitling - Navitimer, or a Vacheron Constantin - Royal Eagle. Does wearing a $7,000 to $9,000 watch...

Why is the carjacking analogy too dissimilar?
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Old 04-29-2012, 00:41   #113
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Your carjacking analogy is too dissimilar. How about an analogy where someone is wearing a Rolex Oyster, or a Breitling - Navitimer, or a Vacheron Constantin - Royal Eagle. Does wearing a $7,000 to $9,000 watch...

This was a MAJOR infraction of the 3 S Rule! Don't go to STUPID places (Ypsilanti, MI); with STUPID people (in this case himself); and do STUPID things (open carry in the hood where half the population is criminally insane and want nothing more than a handgun).

I live 25 minutes from Ypsilanti, MI (the hood). Check out this link for the crime statistics compared to a nice area, like Plymouth, MI where I live: http://austintx.areaconnect.com/crim...Plymouth&s2=MI

The first bar graph chart is an eye opener. Crime rate comparison adjusted per population of 100,000. Blue -- Ypsilanti, MI...WOW! off the chart! White -- Plymouth, MI where I live...a very nice "relatively" crime free area (no place is without crime...but it's hard to beat Plymouth). White -- The national average. Now go ahead and plug your city in the top and compare it to Ypsilanti, MI.

The next set of data below the bar graph are the crime rates adjusted per 100,000 population. And the last set of numbers are the actual crime rates for Ypsilanti, MI compared to Plymouth, MI.

If you want to show your gun off in the hood good luck...you should wear your Rolex while you're at it!
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Old 04-29-2012, 03:22   #114
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And yet another good reason to conceal your firearm.

Open carry may be legal but it doesn't mean it's always the best mode of carry. (Despite what some people think.)
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Old 04-29-2012, 04:44   #115
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And yet another good reason to conceal your firearm.

Open carry may be legal but it doesn't mean it's always the best mode of carry. (Despite what some people think.)
Who are the "people" you refer to that think OC is "always" the best mode of carry?

Also, you imply that you believe it is sometimes the best mode of carry.
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Old 04-29-2012, 07:36   #116
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Why is the carjacking analogy too dissimilar?
It is about available alternatives to mitigate known risks and the willingness of a person to use those alternatives.
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Old 04-29-2012, 07:42   #117
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It is about available alternatives to mitigate known risks and the willingness of a person to use those alternatives.
Then let's stop using the word "cause."
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Old 04-29-2012, 08:11   #118
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This was a MAJOR infraction of the 3 S Rule! Don't go to STUPID places (Ypsilanti, MI); with STUPID people (in this case himself); and do STUPID things (open carry in the hood where half the population is criminally insane and want nothing more than a handgun).
Lets see, zbusdriver, help us out here, please. How does one attend Eastern Michigan University and not go to Ypsilanti.

Thanks...
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Old 04-29-2012, 08:15   #119
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Then let's stop using the word "cause."
Okay, then you choose a word to replace "cause".

How about, "Open carry provided the opportunity and gave the suspect motive to attack the victim."
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Old 04-29-2012, 08:57   #120
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Lets see, zbusdriver, help us out here, please. How does one attend Eastern Michigan University and not go to Ypsilanti.

Thanks...
That's a tough one. My advice would be to take the back way onto campus, park on campus and stay ON campus. The campus, for the most part, is a safe area. DO NOT GO OFF CAMPUS -- NOT EVEN ONE BLOCK AWAY (unless, of course, you are looking for trouble)! Oh, and don't open carry!
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