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Old 07-26-2012, 17:41   #341
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
From the description at Brownell's, the finish reamer includes the throating function. It should produce a SAAMI chamber in all regards.

Now, if somebody want to load a 9mm to 3", I guess they have to buy a custom barrel (and cases). But it's my understanding that the problem at hand is the chamber diameter being too small for lead bullets which are 0.001" larger in diameter than jacketed bullets. There is only 0.001" clearance in a SAAMI chamber so even if the chamber were perfect, there still might be a problem if the wall thickness of the brass is too much.

In any event, it's pretty clear from the video that the LWD barrel will work on factory ammo. What is unclear is whether it will work on lead bullets that are larger in diameter and that, of course, is the primary reason for retrofitting the Glock barrel.

Richard
All I think the video proves is that LWD barrel works. Quality control seems to be the issue. That explains why some work with lead bullet reloads and some don't. If the barrel is imported junk, the reamers could get worn and the chambers cut too small/short.

It comes down to credibility. I've never bought a Barsto barrel, and likely never will, but the company has an excellent reputation and I trust that their tolerances remain within whatever specs they market their barrels for. LWD on the other hand, has a mediocre reputation IMO. JR's crappy attitude just corroborates the reputation. Let's face it, the guy seems to pride himself in having people not respect him. He reminds me of ja ceiner.
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Old 07-26-2012, 17:58   #342
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Originally Posted by WiskyT View Post
All I think the video proves is that LWD barrel works. Quality control seems to be the issue. That explains why some work with lead bullet reloads and some don't. If the barrel is imported junk, the reamers could get worn and the chambers cut too small/short.
Well, the video shows the barrel working for factory loads and by all accounts it doesn't work for reloads. It's clear to me that the barrels are purchased for use with reloads because there wouldn't be any other reason to do so.

I don't have a dog in this hunt but it seems to me that what we don't have are any facts. What exactly is the OD of the loaded round that won't chamber? What exactly is the ID of the chamber that won't accept the loaded round.

I suspect it is possible to create rounds that won't even fit in a SAAMI chamber. In fact, if I do the math and add up case wall (times 2) plus bullet diameter for a lead bullet, there is no way it should fit in a SAAMI chamber. All of the tolerances are used up. What we eventually get to is the fact that the chamber has to be oversized (beyond SAAMI specs) in order for lead bullets to function reliably. So now we enter the Twilight Zone. How much oversized should a chamber be and who says so?

Do we even know the ID of a Glock chamber? What about a KKM? And we need the answer down to 0.0001" so I'm not sure a telescoping T gauge will provide the needed accuracy.

Richard
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Old 07-26-2012, 18:03   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
From the description at Brownell's, the finish reamer includes the throating function. It should produce a SAAMI chamber in all regards.

Now, if somebody want to load a 9mm to 3", I guess they have to buy a custom barrel (and cases). But it's my understanding that the problem at hand is the chamber diameter being too small for lead bullets which are 0.001" larger in diameter than jacketed bullets. There is only 0.001" clearance in a SAAMI chamber so even if the chamber were perfect, there still might be a problem if the wall thickness of the brass is too much.

In any event, it's pretty clear from the video that the LWD barrel will work on factory ammo. What is unclear is whether it will work on lead bullets that are larger in diameter and that, of course, is the primary reason for retrofitting the Glock barrel.

Richard
Well said.

And what is the main reason most shooters buy an aftermarket ballard type rifled barrel for a Glock? It is to shoot lead. They not only miss the boat on the reason people buy aftermarket barrels for Glock but they are at the wrong harbor and telling us to get on the ship......Pitiful and Pathetic.

Interesting that the lads up at LWD had the time to get a video done and go out and do some shooting but not enough time to chase down a reamer that was ordered how many days ago??????????

78 days and waiting for the reamer that's in the mail..........funny line.
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Old 07-26-2012, 19:11   #344
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
Well, the video shows the barrel working for factory loads and by all accounts it doesn't work for reloads. It's clear to me that the barrels are purchased for use with reloads because there wouldn't be any other reason to do so.

I don't have a dog in this hunt but it seems to me that what we don't have are any facts. What exactly is the OD of the loaded round that won't chamber? What exactly is the ID of the chamber that won't accept the loaded round.

I suspect it is possible to create rounds that won't even fit in a SAAMI chamber. In fact, if I do the math and add up case wall (times 2) plus bullet diameter for a lead bullet, there is no way it should fit in a SAAMI chamber. All of the tolerances are used up. What we eventually get to is the fact that the chamber has to be oversized (beyond SAAMI specs) in order for lead bullets to function reliably. So now we enter the Twilight Zone. How much oversized should a chamber be and who says so?

Do we even know the ID of a Glock chamber? What about a KKM? And we need the answer down to 0.0001" so I'm not sure a telescoping T gauge will provide the needed accuracy.

Richard

I agree with you regarding the barrel's intended use for reloads. My point was that I once got a rifle that would pull bullets when a live factory round was ejected. The throat was too short and it wasn't because the manufacturer intended it to be that way. It was a QC issue. They told me the chamber was cut too short due to a worn reamer. They very politely fixed the whole situation unlike JR who's customer service is sarcastic at best.

As for SAAMI chambers and reloads, I have two 9mm's, one Glock and one Ruger. They will both chamber reloads with 0.358" cast 158RN bullets. Maybe those chambers are incorrect, but the guns shoot accurately and reliably.
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Old 07-26-2012, 22:16   #345
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
Well, the video shows the barrel working for factory loads and by all accounts it doesn't work for reloads. It's clear to me that the barrels are purchased for use with reloads because there wouldn't be any other reason to do so.

I don't have a dog in this hunt but it seems to me that what we don't have are any facts. What exactly is the OD of the loaded round that won't chamber? What exactly is the ID of the chamber that won't accept the loaded round.

I suspect it is possible to create rounds that won't even fit in a SAAMI chamber. In fact, if I do the math and add up case wall (times 2) plus bullet diameter for a lead bullet, there is no way it should fit in a SAAMI chamber. All of the tolerances are used up. What we eventually get to is the fact that the chamber has to be oversized (beyond SAAMI specs) in order for lead bullets to function reliably. So now we enter the Twilight Zone. How much oversized should a chamber be and who says so?

Do we even know the ID of a Glock chamber? What about a KKM? And we need the answer down to 0.0001" so I'm not sure a telescoping T gauge will provide the needed accuracy.

Richard
What your missing is that a chamber made to minimum saami is in spec as is one made larger that will work properly with lead.
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Old 07-26-2012, 22:32   #346
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Originally Posted by WiskyT View Post
As for SAAMI chambers and reloads, I have two 9mm's, one Glock and one Ruger. They will both chamber reloads with 0.358" cast 158RN bullets. Maybe those chambers are incorrect, but the guns shoot accurately and reliably.
They are just not made to minimum size. JR has/had it in his head that minimum chamber size was better in some way. It sounds like he is going to start making them a little bigger.
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Old 07-26-2012, 22:38   #347
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The Colt (GT Hole) reamers are on order. We placed the order quite awhile ago. We are waiting patiently for delivery. If the wait is more than you anticipated..... send in a few sample loads and we will get it done by hand.
BTW: I will be flying out in the morning to attend a Salmon Fishing Tournament in Rivers Inlet BC. I will not be able to respond to the hate banter portion of this thread until mid next week. Please by all means keep it going. I get better than 50% support out of this so I am going to continue for all its worth!
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Old 07-27-2012, 07:09   #348
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Old 07-27-2012, 07:12   #349
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Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
What your missing is that a chamber made to minimum saami is in spec as is one made larger that will work properly with lead.
That's true. At the case mouth for a 9mm chamber the dimension is 0.381" +0.004" The cartridge diameter at the case mouth is 0.380" -0.007". Worst case of maximum cartridge diameter and minimum chamber diameter leaves just 0.001" clearance. And that 0.001" disappears quickly when the bullet itself is oversize and the cartridge is actually larger than 0.380"

Best case, of course, the cartridge clears the chamber by 0.012" in which case the round can flop around pretty good.

That's the thing about tolerances, all you have to do is meet them. There's nobody saying that, "Hey, you need to be on the max side of chamber diameter!". The tolerances are there to account for machine variations. A measurement meets the spec or it doesn't. Fudging to one side or the other shouldn't be required.

Again, how can we even discuss this without numbers? What is the chamber diameter? What is the cartridge diameter? Do they meet the spec or not?

Richard
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Old 07-27-2012, 07:26   #350
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Again, how can we even discuss this without numbers? What is the chamber diameter? What is the cartridge diameter? Do they meet the spec or not?

Richard
Agreed. I'd like to know the OAL of the reloads too. I'm still stuck on the length of the rounds and the leade in the barrel. You could be right in your previous posts, it may just be a diameter issue, that just hasn't been my experience so far.

I'm surprised that others have been able to long load 40s in KKM barrels as mentioned. If I ever need another 40 barrel I may have to go with KKM because of this.
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Old 07-27-2012, 07:45   #351
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I'm surprised that others have been able to long load 40s in KKM barrels as mentioned. If I ever need another 40 barrel I may have to go with KKM because of this.
The previous posters that mentioned loading load .40 S&W in KKM barrels stated they sent dummy loads in to KKM to have the barrels reamed to accommodate their loads.
No different in my experience with my G34 LWD that JR reamed for me. The throat was too short to accommodate my 135g RN Bear creek loads at MY preferred OAL of 1.150 I could clearly see it was a throat issue as the rifling was making indentations on the bullet when it was seated by the closing of the slide.
If I loaded the same bullet down to 1.125 NO ISSUES
My experience was nothing but stellar with JR and LWD. I emailed him my thoughts on the issue. He requested that I send the barrel in with 5-6 of my dummy rounds. I got it back in 6 days. Took me a couple of weeks to finally get around to testing it but found it to work as needed. See post #300 and 313.
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Old 07-27-2012, 08:00   #352
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The previous posters that mentioned loading load .40 S&W in KKM barrels stated they sent dummy loads in to KKM to have the barrels reamed to accommodate their loads.

Some did yes, but there was one that stated a standard KKM 40 barrel without any special instructions to KKM was able to shoot 1.260".

As others have mentioned, I have no dog in this fight, just find it interesting for some odd reason. I've been happy with LW and KKM products in the past.
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Old 07-27-2012, 12:59   #353
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That's true. At the case mouth for a 9mm chamber the dimension is 0.381" +0.004" The cartridge diameter at the case mouth is 0.380" -0.007". Worst case of maximum cartridge diameter and minimum chamber diameter leaves just 0.001" clearance. And that 0.001" disappears quickly when the bullet itself is oversize and the cartridge is actually larger than 0.380"

Best case, of course, the cartridge clears the chamber by 0.012" in which case the round can flop around pretty good.

Richard
Are you going with some sort of book data for a 9mm round with a lead bullet of actual data from a loaded round?

I load .357" in 9mm and they all fit my KKM barrel easily. Not wiggly loose like a Glock or other OEM barrel (which one has to assume has a in spec barrel). But they fit the KKM and OEM barrels just fine.
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Old 07-27-2012, 13:01   #354
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The previous posters that mentioned loading load .40 S&W in KKM barrels stated they sent dummy loads in to KKM to have the barrels reamed to accommodate their loads.
A lot of .40 shooters are loading their ammo to near 10mm length so the throat has to be opened up on pretty much any barrel. Depending on bullet/oal combo of course.
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Old 08-07-2012, 01:29   #355
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What a business model !!!!

This could be a case study for some graduate business school.
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Old 08-07-2012, 06:19   #356
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Are you going with some sort of book data for a 9mm round with a lead bullet of actual data from a loaded round?
Those numbers I stated are from the SAAMI spec plus the usual lead bullet OD. The clearance is based on a minimum spec chamber and a maximum spec cartridge plus 0.001" for the extra diameter of lead bullets over jacketed.

I have no idea whether chambers are actually cut to minimum and I don't really have a way to measure them to 4 decimal places.

Quote:
I load .357" in 9mm and they all fit my KKM barrel easily. Not wiggly loose like a Glock or other OEM barrel (which one has to assume has a in spec barrel). But they fit the KKM and OEM barrels just fine.
I like the empirical approach! The rounds either fit the chamber or they don't. Sorting out the problem if they don't fit is really the issue here.

I just got my G21 KKM barrel yesterday. The 'kerplunk' test went fine for factory and jacketed reloads. The LRN seems to just barely hit the step in the chamber while one of my LSWC took a little effort to chamber. I'm sure the slide will seat the round.

The chamber cut seems a little odd and I'll be comparing it to the factory and Colt barrels later today.

But the proof is in the shooting and I haven't had a chance to do that just yet.

As you said, the round wiggles a little bit (with that one exception) but it doesn't seem to be as much as with the Glock barrel.

Richard
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:08   #357
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I own barrels from LWD, KKM, and Storm Lake along with, of course, my Glock factory barrels. No BarSto yet but I'm going to be changing that in the very near future, depending on research which I have yet to complete ( Salient Arms use of BarSto turns me off, talk about overpriced!!!). I'm the type who tinkers with his guns and I enjoy testing different barrels, loads, etc.. I find LWD barrels work just fine, and in my old G34 open gun
I actually preferred the LWD over KKM. I won't get into specs or "big words", all I can say is all the LWD barrels I have owned have functioned flawlessly with whatever I fed them, 9mm and 40. I trust LWD and I've had nothing but good experiences with their customer service. I like the company so much I decided to buy a 9mm AR upper and lower and have Bonbby Carver customize it for me for pistol caliber carbine matches.
Far be it from me to judge anyone's skill level or knowledge, I've not been at this that long, but couldn't the problem be more of a reloading issue as opposed to a barrel issue? I don't think it's fair to judge LWD by the issues of a couple folks. There are too many factors at play here and too many unknowns to give a fair and accurate review. And let's remember, the majority of shooters are shooting factory jacketed ammo, that's the folks all Glock parts manufacturers are aiming to please. My guess is that's why Lone Wolf has the upgrade available for lead shooters but doesn't build their barrels for this right off the bat. One thing I know for sure us a fact.........ya can't please everybody all the time. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:31   #358
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Far be it from me to judge anyone's skill level or knowledge, I've not been at this that long, but couldn't the problem be more of a reloading issue as opposed to a barrel issue?
Absolutely! But the problem is there are no concrete facts. That there are some problems seem indisputable. The reason for the problems remains unclear to me.

Quote:
I don't think it's fair to judge LWD by the issues of a couple folks. There are too many factors at play here and too many unknowns to give a fair and accurate review. And let's remember, the majority of shooters are shooting factory jacketed ammo, that's the folks all Glock parts manufacturers are aiming to please.
Here's the thing: The Glock is not now nor will it ever be a target grade pistol. Therefore, there is no reason to replace a Glock barrel unless the shooter wants to use lead bullets or add a feature like extended length or threading. The primary reason for aftermarket barrels is to get around the odd rifling of the Glock barrel and Glock's statement that lead bullets should not be used in their barrel.

If aftermarket barrels don't handle all reasonable lead reloads, they are pretty useless. But what is 'reasonable'?

We already know that a lead bullet is 0.001" larger in diameter than a jacketed bullet and we know that a maximum jacketed bullet diameter and minimum chamber diameter only have 0.001" clearance. In fact, a minimum chamber will probably not handle lead bullets. The least bit of fouling and the rounds won't chamber. There's just no clearance.

Any attempt to reduce chamber size in an effort to create a 'match' barrel probably works against the reason for replacing the barrel in the first place. Shooting lead bullets...

Richard
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Old 08-11-2012, 08:52   #359
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Been shooting lead reload 9mm in stock GLOCK barrels for three years. No problems with the right bullet / load combination. I have never seen a reason for an after market barrel.
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Old 08-11-2012, 11:46   #360
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Been shooting lead reload 9mm in stock GLOCK barrels for three years. No problems with the right bullet / load combination. I have never seen a reason for an after market barrel.
what is your bullet / load combo? Any issues with bulged brass or OAL? Thanks
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