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Old 04-11-2012, 22:01   #101
kensteele
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Florida Rep. Dennis Baxley, who sponsored the "stand your ground" law in 2005, said nothing in it allows people to "pursue and confront."
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Originally Posted by rahrah12 View Post
I would love to hear his full opinion on this...has he said anything else?
I think you have to wait for the facts to come out before it can be determined to what extend Zman pursued or confronted. Perhaps there is strong evidence to suggest it....or otherwise. If I read between the lines from what the prosecution has said based on the evidence they have, it appears that Zman is the first aggressor. I realise some people think they know what happened (i.e. Zman turned his back and then Martin attacked him) but they don't; that is only an opinion that was repeated in error so often, even I started to believe it at some point.
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Old 04-11-2012, 22:08   #102
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I absolutely agree that an arrest should not be made if there is no probable cause. But that evidence didn't just materialise out of thin air, it was always there.
That remains to be seen. Perhaps it was there from the start, perhaps it came out as the investigation proceeded. Perhaps this prosecutor has a different threshold for probable cause. Time will tell.
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Old 04-11-2012, 23:14   #103
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Zman's latest photo he looks pretty good for someone who just had a broken nose and was beaten to within an inch of his life and head banged on the pavement and almost died by smothering his nose and mouth and swallowing blood. Not bad for approximately 30 minutes or less of paramedic treatment in the field.

I think I heard he eventually went to the hospital to have his nose set but I haven't seen that medical report so we don't even know if it exists or if it even happened.

Will find out sooner or later.
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Old 04-11-2012, 23:21   #104
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Originally Posted by kensteele View Post
Zman's latest photo he looks pretty good for someone who just had a broken nose and was beaten to within an inch of his life and head banged on the pavement and almost died by smothering his nose and mouth and swallowing blood. Not bad for approximately 30 minutes or less of paramedic treatment in the field.
Isn't this the arrest photo from yesterday, some six-seven weeks after the incident?
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Old 04-12-2012, 00:16   #105
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Originally Posted by DocCasualty View Post
Isn't this the arrest photo from yesterday, some six-seven weeks after the incident?
Stop trying to use logic to combat people who already have their mind set on this incident.
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Old 04-12-2012, 00:21   #106
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Stop trying to use logic to combat people who already have their mind set on this incident.
You're correct. WTF was I thinking?
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Old 04-12-2012, 00:48   #107
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Do prosecutors ever charge a person with a higher crime than they have evidence for, betting that the jury will say the evidence better fits the lesser alternate charges?
Prosecutors routinely charge with more than they can be reasonably certain to win. As long as they have enough that a reasonable jury might find the person guilty of the offense, they are allowed to do that.

"Up Charging" makes the defendant look worse and make it easier for the jury to convict. The down side is that it can make the prosecutor look like they have a vendetta against the accused and it can backfire, as it did in the Casey Anthony case. "Up Charging" also allows the prosecutor to plea bargain from a position of strength.
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:02   #108
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What a mess. Florida's "Stand Your Ground" Law is soon to be history despite not being broken. Racism is alive and well in this country and I'm really tired of the race card being hammered into us by the likes of Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson.

A Lesson Learned: As a white male, I will need to have been beaten to near death by a young black man/boy before I would even consider using lethal force and must have several credible witnesses willing to testify on my behalf. Of course, in the Zimmerman case, I would have never disobeyed the 911 Operators recomendations or the Home Owners Association guidelines prohibiting weapons while being on a neighborhood watch patrol.

I'm a disabled Vietnam Era Veteran and a retired Licensed Clinical Social Worker, that specialized in Forensic Psychriatry/Mental Health/Substance Abuse. Now, I frequently avoid any situations/interactions that could be misconstrued as a race, gender or age related issue. It's sad, but necessary to protect myself and those I love.
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:02   #109
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This case may be a lot more cut and dry than most people here and in the media can appreciate. There is physical evidence which is not available to the public, that could prove the case in either direction.

If the autopsy report shows an upward trajectory of the bullet, it indicates the Martin was on top. If it shows a level trajectory, it casts doubt on Zimmerman's account. If it shows a path from back to front, Zimmerman is toast.

If there are photos of Zimmerman's injuries, they can corroborate or discredit Zimmerman's account. If no photos were taken, that either means sloppy police work or that the injuries were so minor that the police did not consider them a factor. Regardless of the photos, if EMS as much as touched Zimmerman, there would be a medical report that will describe the injuries.

The relative location of where Zimmerman's car was parked, where Martin's body was found, where he entered the complex, where he was going and whether there were gaps between building that could facilitate him doubling back on Zimmerman can possibly dismiss one of the accounts as impossible.

While none of this is in the public record, I am absolutely certain that the prosecutor has access to all this information and more and all of it factored into her decision to prosecute. Unless there is a plea bargain in the next few weeks (very unlikely), all this information will become public when it is included in the motion to dismiss that Zimmerman's lawyer will invariably file.

But don't let any of that get in the way of believing what you want to believe.
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:14   #110
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A Lesson Learned: As a white male, I will need to have been beaten to near death by a young black man/boy before I would even consider using lethal force
That is absolutely the case. If you initiated the incident, you have to let things against you escalate a lot more before you might be able to justify using deadly force.

While the law allows you to use deadly force in this situation if you are in mortal danger AFTER you have surrendered and withdrawn, if you were indisputably the initiator, the burden of proof is on you to prove that you did withdraw. Race has absolutely nothing to do with that fact.
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:55   #111
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Even though they are charging him with Murder 2, can the jury convict on a lessor charge during the case, or is it Murder 2 or nothing?

Even if he is found not guilty, then will come the federal charges. After that, civil.

Even if Z gets through all of this and is a free man at the end of it, he will have to disappear for good.

His life is over no matter what happens.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if someone ends up killing him, in jail or out in public.
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:42   #112
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Originally Posted by kensteele View Post
Hmmm, so some have full faith in the Sanford police department investigation but little trust in the state of FL and the special prosecution assigned by the governor?

this is why these battles are so hard and really, a jury should decide.
The PD investigators are working with the full deck of evidence; the jury doesn’t always have the same benefit as critical evidence could be excluded from their review thus resulting in an inappropriate verdict.

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Old 04-12-2012, 04:57   #113
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From what I heard this morning, in FL at least, the definition of Murder 2 is "depraved disregard for human life". Nothing we've heard thus far about this case comes anywhere close to that, so it sounds like a stretch.
If a jury is instructed to follow that definition, it's likely he'll walk.

I can't help but wonder if this is intentional? Perhaps Corey was pressured by 0bama and the DOJ to press charges, so she set an impossible bar where only an all black jury would convict him?
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Old 04-12-2012, 04:58   #114
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The charge against Zimmerman... STATE OF FLORIDA VS. GEORGE ZIMMERMAN
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:30   #115
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Don't be so logical with facts and laws in this political climate. Angela Corey's best way to avoid a career-derailing decision, handed to her by the Gov'or, is to let the Jury decide this case.

Corey's career will hit extended hard times had she decided either For or Against George Zimmerman. The Jury route is simply the best route for Angela.

Like it or not, Zimmerman has become a political pawn, being played by all sides of politics. You may be safer in the joint, George, if they isolate you.
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:50   #116
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Originally Posted by whenmonkeysfly View Post
What a mess. Florida's "Stand Your Ground" Law is soon to be history despite not being broken. Racism is alive and well in this country and I'm really tired of the race card being hammered into us by the likes of Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson.

A Lesson Learned: As a white male, I will need to have been beaten to near death by a young black man/boy before I would even consider using lethal force and must have several credible witnesses willing to testify on my behalf. Of course, in the Zimmerman case, I would have never disobeyed the 911 Operators recomendations or the Home Owners Association guidelines prohibiting weapons while being on a neighborhood watch patrol.

I'm a disabled Vietnam Era Veteran and a retired Licensed Clinical Social Worker, that specialized in Forensic Psychriatry/Mental Health/Substance Abuse. Now, I frequently avoid any situations/interactions that could be misconstrued as a race, gender or age related issue. It's sad, but necessary to protect myself and those I love.
Or just don't be the aggressor with someone you perceive to be a criminal...

What did Zimmerman think was going to happen if the "criminal" decided to confront him?

You think Zimerman gets off free if the victim was white?
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:55   #117
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Originally Posted by HexHead View Post
From what I heard this morning, in FL at least, the definition of Murder 2 is "depraved disregard for human life". Nothing we've heard thus far about this case comes anywhere close to that, so it sounds like a stretch.
If a jury is instructed to follow that definition, it's likely he'll walk.

I can't help but wonder if this is intentional? Perhaps Corey was pressured by 0bama and the DOJ to press charges, so she set an impossible bar where only an all black jury would convict him?
One of the "experts" on TV said that a close gunshot to the chest can fill that portion of it...

That last paragraph seems absurd...
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:03   #118
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I thought he was "off duty" and headed to the store? So not carrying on duty wouldn't apply. And can he even be charged in civil court if he gets off? I don't doubt the federal charges part though. He's pretty screwed

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Old 04-12-2012, 06:59   #119
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[QUOTE=rahrah12;18834005]Or just don't be the aggressor with someone you perceive to be a criminal...

QUOTE]

I agree.

BUT.

It's going to be "heresay", your words against theirs, unless you've got solid video evidence that will save police and potential prosecutor time.

Have a pocket video handy.
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:05   #120
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The PD investigators are working with the full deck of evidence; the jury doesn’t always have the same benefit as critical evidence could be excluded from their review thus resulting in an inappropriate verdict.

.
It is my understanding that both the defense and prosecution can object to certain evidence being introduced. The Judge then decides.

So, yes, a jury may not see the entire "deck of cards".

The problem is finding a neutral jury that will rely only on the facts presented in the court.
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:17   #121
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I thought he was "off duty" and headed to the store? So not carrying on duty wouldn't apply.
It isn't illegal for a Florida citizen licensed to carry concealed to carry a firearm while participating in Neighborhood Watch activities. Whether this occurred during a time slot where he was scheduled to watch the neighborhood or not has no bearing on his carrying a firearm at the time of the incident.

Now, if it can be shown that he only carried during his scheduled watch times, that will have a bearing on the case.
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And can he even be charged in civil court if he gets off?
That depends on whether SYG is invoked and stands.
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I don't doubt the federal charges part though. He's pretty screwed
What federal charges?
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:40   #122
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I really hope there is some key evidence, that made the arrest neccessary.

If not, I just wonder how this is going to affect self defense and concealed carry.

So if I'm walking down the street and some unarmed street thug attacks me, and knocks me on my back, do I have to wait until I substain visible injuries, before I can shoot.

Or will it be a situation where because he is unarmed, young, and not white, I simply have to take a beating, and hope to God that he doesn't kill me.

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Old 04-12-2012, 07:47   #123
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Carry Issues

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He should have laid out in the sun and got really dark. That would have confused a lot of people.

'WTF, he's a black guy!!??"
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:52   #124
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So if I'm walking down the street and some unarmed street thug attacks me, and knocks me on my back, do I have to wait until I substain visible injuries, before I can shoot.
If you were chasing down that street thug, he has the right to use deadly force against you for his self defense and you have no right to use deadly force even if you get killed because you were the aggressor. It will take a lot more than your word that he attacked you after you had clearly surrendered, disengaged and at least attempted to retreat.
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:53   #125
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In a Stand Your Grown case does the prosecution have to prove that Zimmerman was nit standing his ground (the aggressor, had an opportunity to flee, whatever)...or does Zimmerman have to prove that he was in fear for his life and had no other alternative?
The stand your ground law that was passed in 2005 allows the use of deadly force "to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm" and "to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony." It eliminated the duty to retreat before using such force as required in a previous self-defense law.
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