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Old 04-14-2012, 03:06   #326
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Old 04-14-2012, 04:40   #327
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Originally Posted by JAFO1-12 View Post
my original intent on posting was to ask people to put themselves in the position of the kid. seems like everyone on GT thinks of themselves as the shooter, which i found odd. seriously, look at all the posts. no one wonders about being followed at night by a lone individual in a car? this must have happened, at some point, to someone who posts on here
Everything below is based off what I have seen and read on the case.

Here's the problem with the intent of your post, according to an eye witness at some point the kid had GZ on the ground. At that point in my eyes its a logical shoot. I for one am not gonna risk loosing control of my firearm in a fist fight if at all possible. So if I'm on my back I would have done the same. Now all the facts leading up to that point are unclear as of now. I'm not saying GZ should face no consequences, I think he was in the wrong for being out of his vehicle. But it seems your trying to prove innocence and guilt without knowing all the facts.
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Old 04-14-2012, 05:59   #328
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This should help answer some of the questions people have about CCW in FL, from the State of Florida:

A license to carry a concealed weapon is not a license to use it. I am sure you share my hope that you will never find it necessary to use a weapon in self-defense. If you do, the law will protect you only if you have acted within the law. Those who are choosing to arm themselves with weapons should, therefore, be armed with the most indispensable weapon of all knowledge.
We are providing this information to you as a service in pursuit of that goal. Only you can provide the wisdom, restraint, and good judgment that the law demands of those who possess the ability to take another human life.

Adam H. Putnam
Commissioner

A License to Carry a Concealed Weapon is not a License to use it.




This information was prepared by the Division of Licensing in an attempt to answer some of the most frequently asked questions about the use of deadly force for lawful self-defense. Included are examples of real situations involving the legal consequences of the use of deadly force.

Q. What kinds of weapons are included in the concealed weapons law?

A. The Jack Hagler Self-defense Act defines concealed weapons or firearms as follows: handguns, electronic weapons or devices, tear gas guns, knives and billies. The information provided emphasizes handguns, because they are one of the most commonly used weapons for self-defense.

Q. What if I am in my vehicle?

A. A person has no duty to retreat in his lawfully occupied vehicle against a person who was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering or had unlawfully and forcefully entered an occupied vehicle or had unlawfully and forcefully removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the occupied vehicle.

Q. When is a Handgun "Concealed?"

A. The Florida Legislature defines a concealed firearm as any firearm “carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal it from the ordinary sight of another person.” A person carrying a concealed firearm without a license is guilty of a felony of the third degree. The penalty for this offense is a prison term of up to five years.

Q. Are there special laws that apply to the use of Handguns?

A. Yes, special laws apply anytime anyone uses deadly force, whether or not the weapon is concealed. Florida law defines deadly force as force that is likely to cause death or great bodily harm. When you carry a handgun, you possess a weapon of deadly force. The law considers even an unloaded gun to be a deadly weapon when it is pointed at someone.

Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?

A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:
  • Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
  • Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.
Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, manslaughter, or worse.

Example of the kind of attack that will not justify defending yourself with deadly force: Two neighbors got into a fight, and one of them tried to hit the other by swinging a garden hose. The neighbor who was being attacked with the hose shot the other in the chest. The court upheld his conviction for aggravated battery with a firearm, because an attack with a garden hose is not the kind of violent assault that justifies responding with deadly force.

Q. What if someone uses threatening language to me so that I am afraid for my life or safety?

A. Verbal threats are not enough to justify the use of deadly force. There must be an overt act by the person which indicates that he immediately intends to carry out the threat. The person threatened must reasonably believe that he will be killed or suffer serious bodily harm if he does not immediately take the life of his adversary.

Q. What if someone is attacking me in my own home?

A. The courts have created an exception to the duty to retreat called the “castle doctrine.” Under the castle doctrine, you need not retreat from your own home to avoid using deadly force against an assailant. The castle doctrine applies if you are attacked in your own home by an intruder.

Q. What if I am in my place of business and someone comes in to rob me? Do I have to retreat before using deadly force?

A. The castle doctrine also applies when you are in your place of business. If you are in danger of death or great bodily harm or you are trying to prevent a forcible felony, you do not have to retreat before using deadly force in self-defense.

Q. What if I point my handgun at someone but don't use it?

A. Never display a handgun to gain "leverage" in an argument. Threatening someone verbally while possessing a handgun, even licensed, will land you in jail for three years. Even if the gun is broken or you don't have bullets, you will receive the mandatory three-year sentence if convicted. The law does not allow any possibility of getting out of jail early.

Example: In a 1987 case, a woman refused to pay an automobile mechanic who she thought did a poor job repairing her car. They argued about it, and the mechanic removed the radiator hose from the car so she couldn't drive it away. She reached into her purse, pulled out an unloaded gun, and threatened to kill the mechanic if he touched her car again. The mechanic grabbed the gun and called the police.

The woman was convicted of aggravated assault with a firearm and sentenced to serve a mandatory three-year prison term. The fact that the gun was not loaded was irrelevant. Even though she was the mother of three dependent children and had no prior criminal record, the statute does not allow for parole. Her only recourse was to seek clemency from the Governor.

Q. When can I use deadly force in the defense of another person?

A. If you see someone who is being attacked, you can use deadly force to defend him/her if the circumstances would justify that person's use of deadly force in his/her own defense. In other words, you "stand in the shoes" of the person being attacked.

Q. What if I see a crime being committed?

A. A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman. But, as stated earlier, deadly force is justified if you are trying to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. The use of deadly force must be absolutely necessary to prevent the crime. Also, if the criminal runs away, you cannot use deadly force to stop him, because you would no longer be "preventing" a crime. If use of deadly force is not necessary, or you use deadly force after the crime has stopped, you could be convicted of manslaughter.

Q. If I get a license to carry a concealed weapon, can I carry it anywhere?

A. No. To get a license you must sign an oath that you have read and understand the Jack Hagler Self-defense Act (Section 790.06, Florida Statutes). That statute lists several places where you may not carry a concealed weapon. You should read subsection 12 for a complete list, but some examples are football, baseball, and basketball games (college or professional) and bars.

A cool head and even temper can keep handgun carriers out of trouble. You should never carry a gun into a situation where you might get angry.

Summary

1. Never display a handgun to gain "leverage" in an argument, even if it isn't loaded or you never intend to use it.

2. The amount of force that you use to defend yourself must not be excessive under the circumstances.
  • Never use deadly force in self-defense unless you are afraid that if you don't, you will be killed or seriously injured;
  • Verbal threats never justify your use of deadly force;
  • If you think someone has a weapon and will use it unless you kill him, be sure you are right and are not overreacting to the situation.
3. The law permits you to carry a concealed weapon for self-defense. Carrying a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman or a "good samaritan."

4. Never carry your concealed weapon into any place where the statute prohibits carrying it.

This is not a complete summary of all the statutes and court opinions on the use of deadly force. Because the concealed weapons statute specifies that concealed weapons are to be used for lawful self-defense, we have not attempted to summarize the body of law on lawful defense of property. This information is not intended as legal advice. Every self-defense case has its own unique set of facts, and it is unwise to try to predict how a particular case would be decided. It is clear, however, that the law protects people who keep their tempers under control and use deadly force only as a last resort.

-----------------------------------------

The FL Gun Law on CCW can be found at:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...entsIndex.html
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Old 04-14-2012, 06:29   #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Hanrahan View Post
You must be inebriated or mentally retarded to sign up to a forum named Glock Talk and expect a different response to the media barbequeing a man involved in self defense shooting.



Simple, do not prejudge. No one here knows exactly what happened that night. Maybe you can find a forum named Speculation and Prejudge Talk.
Seems like you just suggested in the first part that prejudging is expected, then tell him not to prejudge as no one knows what happened that night.

Curious which is it?

I would expect people on GlockTalk to support a good shoot, condemn a bad one. Cause every bad one increases the odds of the public, and therefore legislators getting cold feet and rolling back carry rights.

Also expect the forum to endlessly debate a murky shooting with limited information.

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Old 04-14-2012, 06:44   #330
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I was fortunate enough to live in a time and place where the men and women of my community cared enough about their teenagers--and everyone else--to actually keep an eye on them.Then again, I was fortunate enough to live in a time before virtually every man was de-balled, and taught that it was best to slither under a rock in times of trouble. Different world today.
This is what bugs me about the view that his getting out of the car was wrong. It may have proved to be a "tactical error"' but if we had been having trouble in my neighborhood with teenagers and crime, I can see myself investigating suspicious people in the neighboorhood, including following someone. But that is why we don't have trouble in my neighborhood- people take an active role in watching out for things and we would confront suspicious teens and not cower inside.

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Old 04-14-2012, 06:47   #331
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Here is my 0.02. Don't follow anyone. Call 911. Listen to the operator. Go to a safer place. Wait for LE. None of us here know every fact of this case. No matter the outcome guilty or innocent. GZ life as he knew it before this will be over. If he gets sentenced he will spend his time in solitary confinement. If innocent he will have to start his life in a different country. The media does and will flip flop everything. Facts may become false. Truths may become false. All of this will be public when he is either guilty or innocent. Alot of us who train. Or are trained. Not LE. (Civilians) are taught Never pursuit. Never follow/stalk. I will not take a side. I think this whole situation is sad. I believe it could of been prevented. It's important we all learn a lesson. Never follow anyone. For any reason. Never look for a fight. Never put yourself in harms way. I know I'm rambling. I apologize. Being a resident of Florida and very well studied in every gun law. I worry that the escalation of this and the magnitude will change our stand your ground law. I will always stand my gound. I will never pursuit or follow.
Fearing for life or extreme bodily harm doesn't start when seeing someone suspicious. If that was the case everywhere I go I see 50 potentially suspicious people a day. If they are not in my personal space. Or coming after me with a weapon. Or visible going to hurt another. I go on with my day.
God bless us all.
Thanks for hearing my venting.
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:23   #332
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If this would have been the other way around, black shot white, you wouldnt have heard nothing. Also racial pressure. (dam blacks there all the same)
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:26   #333
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If this would have been the other way around, black shot white, you wouldnt have heard nothing. Also racial pressure. (dam blacks there all the same)
Maybe because the black guy would have been arrested right away...
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:31   #334
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maybe because the black guy would have been arrested right away...
dont think so, he wouldnt have been arrested at all and noboby would have heard nothing just like i said. (read).
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:45   #335
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dont think so, he wouldnt have been arrested at all and noboby would have heard nothing just like i said. (read).
Black man shoots a young white male...that makes the national media and he is arrested.

If Zimmerman shoots a young white male it makes national media.

There are a lot of white people that also think Zimmerman is guilty along with a lot of antigun people waiting for a reason to attack Stand Your Ground...
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Old 04-14-2012, 08:09   #336
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Originally Posted by rahrah12 View Post
Maybe because the black guy would have been arrested right away...
Black Male Shoots Unarmed Hispanic, Remains Free, Media Mum

http://nation.foxnews.com/daniel-adk...free-media-mum

Daniel Adkins' killer claims self-defense: Unarmed man shot, killed outside Arizona Taco Bell

http://www.chicagonewsreport.com/201...aims-self.html
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Old 04-14-2012, 08:37   #337
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He is not guilty. They knew if he wasnt arrested there would have been a racial war. Winey blacks.
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Old 04-14-2012, 08:38   #338
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He was jumped and beaten so he shot to defend himself.
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Old 04-14-2012, 08:41   #339
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Originally Posted by rahrah12 View Post
Maybe because the black guy would have been arrested right away...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonGlock26 View Post
Black Male Shoots Unarmed Hispanic, Remains Free, Media Mum

http://nation.foxnews.com/daniel-adk...free-media-mum

Daniel Adkins' killer claims self-defense: Unarmed man shot, killed outside Arizona Taco Bell

http://www.chicagonewsreport.com/201...aims-self.html
_

Not necessarily my friend.... Don beat me to it but I was about to post this.
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Old 04-14-2012, 08:42   #340
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Originally Posted by rahrah12 View Post
Black man shoots a young white male...that makes the national media and he is arrested.

If Zimmerman shoots a young white male it makes national media.


There are a lot of white people that also think Zimmerman is guilty along with a lot of antigun people waiting for a reason to attack Stand Your Ground...

I disagree with both of those. Please show me an example of a white crime victim by a minority perpetrator making national news.
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Old 04-14-2012, 08:47   #341
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Originally Posted by JAFO1-12 View Post
i suggest you consult google about concealed carry laws if you think nothing trumps them.
Is that what I said? No it is not. And for the record I would suspect that I am more familiar with Florida carry laws than you are.

In the context of the question that I was responding to, no, there is no extenuating circumstance that made GZ's carrying of a concealed firearm at the time of the incident illegal...be it some neighborhood watch policy or any other crap like that. At the time of the incident, GZ was legally carrying a concealed firearm. Period.
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Old 04-14-2012, 08:51   #342
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Originally Posted by Nick2nd26 View Post
.... I worry that the escalation of this and the magnitude will change our stand your ground law. ....
Assume for a moment that Z was not allowed a CCW license and can not carry a gun. Wouldn't it be likely that he'd carry a "concealed" knife, a folding blade ?

I would, if I was doing that Watch capacity. There's no way in the world that I would walk around unarmed in that Watch capacity.

Now, assuming what he said was true for self-defense (which the S-Prosecutor rejected by virtue of the charge), wouldn't you think he slipped the knife into Martin?

Would we now talk about banning KNIVES or concealed carry of KNIVES ?

On another case, do you remember a doctor's wife ran over her cheating husband deliberately with the Mercedes and killed him? Why we are not talking about banning CARs ? especially when cars are "killing" some 30,000-50,000 people a year in the last few decades?

I bring these things up so you'd see the deliberate effort of using this Martin-Zimmerman case in a convenient way to discredit existing gun laws, when other potential "instruments of death" are left intact.
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Old 04-14-2012, 08:51   #343
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Originally Posted by DonGlock26 View Post
Black Male Shoots Unarmed Hispanic, Remains Free, Media Mum

http://nation.foxnews.com/daniel-adk...free-media-mum

Daniel Adkins' killer claims self-defense: Unarmed man shot, killed outside Arizona Taco Bell

http://www.chicagonewsreport.com/201...aims-self.html
_
1. He said black vs white (but race shouldn't matter)
2. I did hear about this when this happened and have heard people asking for justice for Adkins...
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:04   #344
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If this would have been the other way around, black shot white, you wouldnt have heard nothing. Also racial pressure. (dam blacks there all the same)
Ok. let's turn the table a little bit at a time.

Why there are no outrage at the death of a drummer due to hazing at FAMU ? The Drummer was a young black beaten to death by his own, and FAMU is essentially all black, from administration to students.

Instead, they demontrated at the Gov'or residence when he asked a task force to look into this issue, because they wanted it to slip away quietly.
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:06   #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahrah12 View Post
1. He said black vs white (but race shouldn't matter)
2. I did hear about this when this happened and have heard people asking for justice for Adkins...
The black shooter walked, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rahrah12 View Post
Maybe because the black guy would have been arrested right away...
That didn't happen in this case.
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Last edited by DonGlock26; 04-14-2012 at 09:07..
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:17   #346
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my original intent on posting was to ask people to put themselves in the position of the kid. seems like everyone on GT thinks of themselves as the shooter, which i found odd. seriously, look at all the posts. no one wonders about being followed at night by a lone individual in a car? this must have happened, at some point, to someone who posts on here
Some time ago, a person told the story of a 'close call' while going to an ATM at night. I don't recall all of the details, but gist was the person was getting money, when a man started approaching quickly. The CCW guy yells for him to get away, reveals that he is armed, and puts his hand on his gun in the holster.

Now...from the other side. I am walking along at night to meet my friend and some guy at an ATM turns toward me and starts yelling. I can't tell what the heck he's saying, but he's getting more aggressive. I stop in my tracks and next thing you know, I can see he's got his hand on a gun and looks like he's going to shoot me.

Not saying this type of thing happened in the Trayvon incident. However you raised the point that questioned the scenario from another perspective. The story shows that things can go horribly wrong based on erroneous assumptions.
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:17   #347
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The black shooter walked, right?



That didn't happen in this case.
_
In his post he said "Black shot White"
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:19   #348
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I disagree with both of those. Please show me an example of a white crime victim by a minority perpetrator making national news.
Maurice Clemmons shooting the police officers in Seattle...
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:25   #349
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In his post he said "Black shot White"
What's your point? You think the police let him walk because the victim was Hispanic in AZ? Really?

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Old 04-14-2012, 09:34   #350
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What's your point? You think the police let him walk because the victim was Hispanic in AZ? Really?

_
He put the limitations on it not me...

but I guess you are right it took John McNeil a year to get arrested for murdering a white man...I didn't see the NRA or anyone coming to his defense...

http://telegantmess.tumblr.com/post/...cneil-killed-a
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