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Old 04-12-2012, 13:01   #181
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Now just get rid of CCW. Only an idiot straps a gun on every day.
If you want to pursue that thought, start another thread. This is not the venue.
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Old 04-12-2012, 13:02   #182
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It's an interesting case.

Zimmerman decides to "confront" someone he thinks is a suspect. He has the right to come up to him and ask questions, indicating his suspicions (btw, not suprising people get mad if they have someone do this to them).

Now Martin, being approached, escalates the event and doesnt just go verbal but physically attacks Zimmerman.

To defend himself, Zimmerman shoots and kills Martin.

Zimmerman has taken on some culpability by initiating the controntation, in my opinion. He has also shot an unarmed man (not armed with knife or gun anyway). Two strikes against Zimmerman.

Zimmerman claims self defense or possibly "stand my ground" defense. Certainly possible, though a bit shaky since he initiated it and Martin was unarmed.

The jury has a dilemma. If they let Zimmerman go on self defense, or "stand my ground" they now are encouraging the following situation: Self appointed vigilantes can arm themselves, start confronting ANY strangers they see in their neighborhood and shoot and kill them without reprecussions. The Castle doctrine allows a HOMEOWNER to do this, inside his home. But the intruder has already commited a crime by coming into the home univited (or breaking in).

On the other hand, it IS possible for someone "being asked questions" to turn on his asker and overpower his asker and put the asker in the position of having to defend himself.

The two men seem to me to be pretty evenly physically matched.

It shows why the police tell citizens NOT to become self appointed cops and take on questioning suspicious persons.

One thing Zimmerman has on his side, is he presents a pretty good case on being someone not WANTING to hurt anyone. And it is this attribute which calls for a manslaughter charge, not murder 2.

The fact that it's murder 2 seems like a mistake to me. I suppose they can lower the charge to manslaughter. That may be the prosecutions strategy.

The case seems ready made for a jury trial though. Probably would be a big one.
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Old 04-12-2012, 13:04   #183
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I was surprised to see a recent picture of Zimmerman

Carry Issues


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Old 04-12-2012, 13:05   #184
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Originally Posted by glockaviator View Post
It's an interesting case.

Zimmerman decides to "confront" someone he thinks is a suspect. He has the right to come up to him and ask questions, indicating his suspicions (btw, not suprising people get mad if they have someone do this to them).

Now Martin, being approached, escalates the event and doesnt just go verbal but physically attacks Zimmerman.

To defend himself, Zimmerman shoots and kills Martin.

Zimmerman has taken on some culpability by initiating the controntation, in my opinion. He has also shot an unarmed man (not armed with knife or gun anyway). Two strikes against Zimmerman.

Zimmerman claims self defense or possibly "stand my ground" defense. Certainly possible, though a bit shaky since he initiated it and Martin was unarmed.

The jury has a dilemma. If they let Zimmerman go on self defense, or "stand my ground" they now are encouraging the following situation: Self appointed vigilantes can arm themselves, start confronting ANY strangers they see in their neighborhood and shoot and kill them without reprecussions. The Castle doctrine allows a HOMEOWNER to do this, inside his home. But the intruder has already commited a crime by coming into the home univited (or breaking in).

On the other hand, it IS possible for someone "being asked questions" to turn on his asker and overpower his asker and put the asker in the position of having to defend himself.

The two men seem to me to be pretty evenly physically matched.

It shows why the police tell citizens NOT to become self appointed cops and take on questioning suspicious persons.

One thing Zimmerman has on his side, is he presents a pretty good case on being someone not WANTING to hurt anyone. And it is this attribute which calls for a manslaughter charge, not murder 2.

The fact that it's murder 2 seems like a mistake to me. I suppose they can lower the charge to manslaughter. That may be the prosecutions strategy.

The case seems ready made for a jury trial though. Probably would be a big one.

I don't know about you, but I consider everything that has already happened to Zimmerman, not even including being charged with murder, to be repercussions
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Old 04-12-2012, 13:07   #185
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I agree, it was taken yesterday. That's why I was confused about your comments as to where was the evidence in that photo of the injuries to his face (and head), when those would have occurred 45 days previously, plenty of time for healing to have occurred, though none of us know the true extent of any injuries anyway.
yeah sorry that was tongue in cheek. you see people from car wrecks or battered spouses and after a month, they still look pretty beat up. i heard zman's brother say one more head bang and zman would be on a feeding tube.

again, that photo isn't going to be relevant to the case unless the prosecution does not believe the injuries were serious (i.e. no photos in february, vague medical report, no broken nose xrays, etc).
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Old 04-12-2012, 13:09   #186
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IANAL but it is murder2, guilty or not guilty; there are no other criminal charges that I have seen.
I am going to stand corrected on this statement. IANAL

Perhaps lesser charges are possible. IANAL

The legal folks are going to have to weigh in on this. IANAL
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Old 04-12-2012, 13:21   #187
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It's an interesting case.

Zimmerman decides to "confront" someone he thinks is a suspect. He has the right to come up to him and ask questions, indicating his suspicions (btw, not suprising people get mad if they have someone do this to them).
Where does the "confront" come from?

There is some evidence based upon a witness - the one that called 911 - that Zman was on his way back to his car when attacked.

A google search turns up the story.
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Old 04-12-2012, 13:23   #188
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Okay, kat1950, I'm 65, how about explaining to me how SYG and two witnesses will get him off.

You posted that when "Zimmerman SAID NO, he stood his ground." Had the attack and shooting occurred then, I would say SYG applies. But, it didn't.

Still staying with your version of events, "Later to be punched in nose and Martin winding on top of him beating him," the ability to make the decision to retreat or SYG was taken away with "Martin winding on top of him beating him." At the point retreat is taken out of the equation, doesn't it becomes a case of simple self defense, justifiable homicide without invoking the SYG defense?

I and others look forward to your response.

Yes you could be right, but the lawyer is going for the easiest option of an automatic pass.
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Old 04-12-2012, 13:30   #189
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Yes you could be right, but the lawyer is going for the easiest option of an automatic pass.
What lawyer?

Source?

And would you mind explaining what an "automatic pass" is?
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Old 04-12-2012, 13:35   #190
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yeah sorry that was tongue in cheek. you see people from car wrecks or battered spouses and after a month, they still look pretty beat up. i heard zman's brother say one more head bang and zman would be on a feeding tube.

again, that photo isn't going to be relevant to the case unless the prosecution does not believe the injuries were serious (i.e. no photos in february, vague medical report, no broken nose xrays, etc).
I assure you that I too am in the "wait and see" camp. I find myself saying more things supportive of Zimmerman simply because I've seen more crap put out against him that is refutable with credible infor that has since come out. The damage to 2A has already occurred with what has been put out in the press and I'm actually doubtful that further findings one way or the other will affect that much. I could be wrong.

With that in mind, I will say that one can sustain fairly significant traumatic brain injuries with little external evidence of injury. Similarly one can have impressive external bruising, skin tears or lacerations from fairly minor mechanisms of injury. I don't know if Z had a broken nose as has been alleged, but from a medical perspective, a non-displaced nasal bone fracture is little different from a nasal contusion. However, these factors play big into police investigations: were x-rays taken? was a fracture present?

While I want to sympathize with both families, I recognize that statements they are both making are decidedly one-sided and expressed through the color of their biases. Was Zimmerman's head slammed "to within an inch of his life"? We don't know what happened. There should be some medical info available to the investigators from what we know. The "theater" of the court will then attempt to interpret for the jury or judge what it means.
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Old 04-12-2012, 13:38   #191
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Who are they going to sue besides Zimmerman? The homeowner's association? I doubt it has any assets or any way to make the individual homeowners liable.
Most HOAs can impose special assessments on the homeowners and secure them with liens against their homes. The cost of mounting a defense and any judgement or settlement is legitimate HOA expense and will be passed on to the homeowners via a special assessment.

In the 911 calls there was a mention of a "club house" Those types of common facilities are often owned by the HOA, as in the HOA owns title to the real property. If that is the case, the property can be taken to fulfill a judgement.

Whether the HOA has any liability is not a cut and dry question. The fact that the HOA introduced Zimmerman to the community as the neighborhood watch captain in a newsletter can be used to attach vicarious liability. The fact that Zimmerman was not officially "on duty" and did not identify himself as part of the neighborhood watch on the 911 calls can be used to show that he did what he did in his private capacity.

But even if the HOA wins in court, they will still be looking at several 10's of thousands in legal bills, possibly into 6 figures.
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Old 04-12-2012, 13:52   #192
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yeah sorry that was tongue in cheek. you see people from car wrecks or battered spouses and after a month, they still look pretty beat up. i heard zman's brother say one more head bang and zman would be on a feeding tube.

again, that photo isn't going to be relevant to the case unless the prosecution does not believe the injuries were serious (i.e. no photos in february, vague medical report, no broken nose xrays, etc).

You hear about that?

I'll let you hear one of my personal experiences. Back in August my girlfriend got into a wreck going 70 mph in a small suzuki verona, hitting a STOPPED chevy 1500 creating a 4 car pile up. She suffered a broken nose, and sprained ankle, with some cuts from the auto glass and such.

After I cleaned the blood off from her face, you couldn't even tell her nose was broken, in fact the ER didn't believe her either until they took an x-ray and confirmed she did in fact break her nose. They told us to expect her to get two black eyes, tons of swelling, etc etc from this broken nose in a day or two.


...... Three days roll around and her nose was a little swollen, but one would have to look carefully. Her nose healed before her cuts, I'd say 2-3 weeks the only injury that was left noticeable on her was her ankle, she had trouble walking for 1-2 months after such, which of course the ankle part would be irrelevant in this case.

What I'm getting at is, Zimmerman could have easily suffered these injuries, including a broken nose, and none of us would be able to tell without an x-ray..... I sure hope he has that x-ray for court.....
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Old 04-12-2012, 13:56   #193
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Yes you could be right, but the lawyer is going for the easiest option of an automatic pass.

Here Kat, I created a thread for you, so you can explain to us how much smarter you are, and why concealed carry is a bad idea for the united states. I can't wait to hear why you support this side!


http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1414763
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Old 04-12-2012, 14:01   #194
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Zimmermans attorney is decent, he is a legal contributor on a local news station
Being a contributor to a local or national news station does not automatically make one decent in one's field.
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Zimmermans attorney will call their 2 witness, that also called 911 to the stand to state they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him, The Special prosecutor will call their witnesses, its a wash, that is the reason the State Attorney Norm Wolfinger for our area refused to prosecute knowing they will never get a conviction
Your lack of awareness about your own ignorance of the legal system is shocking.

If two witnesses say A was on top of B and another two say that B was on top of A, it does not automatically lead to an acquittal. There is physical evidence that can bolster one side and under cut another side.

In this case, the autopsy report and crime scene photos, which you and I have not seen, may conclusively show that Martin was or was not on top of Zimmerman. The witnesses that say otherwise will have a very hard time looking believable. A jury is not only allowed to disregard any and all witnesses that it finds unbelievable, it is actually required to.
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Old 04-12-2012, 14:02   #195
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Most HOAs can impose special assessments on the homeowners and secure them with liens against their homes. The cost of mounting a defense and any judgement or settlement is legitimate HOA expense and will be passed on to the homeowners via a special assessment.
That's possible. It also depends upon how the HOA is set up - Corp., LLC etc. Also, the ins. the HOA has and in this case a special assessment might be covered by the individual homeowner's insurance.

I have a gut feeling that the HOA won't be held accountable.
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Old 04-12-2012, 14:07   #196
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Have there been any medical reports? I actually can't wait to see those released. That should clear up a lot...

@Octoberrust - was there a lot of blood with your gf's broken nose?
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Old 04-12-2012, 14:11   #197
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Have there been any medical reports? I actually can't wait to see those released. That should clear up a lot...

@Octoberrust - was there a lot of blood with your gf's broken nose?

Initially, there was, which was mostly on her pants, and the sidewalk where she ultimately hopped/crawled to. It was not sustained for a long period of time though. I was actually surprised to hear it was broken when she was x-rayed.


ETA - if I find the photos I will post if it's not against TOS

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Old 04-12-2012, 14:12   #198
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and in this case a special assessment might be covered by the individual homeowner's insurance.
That I am certain will not happen. The liability portion of the homeowners' insurance is there to protect the homeowner if they do something that creates a liability for them. A special assessment by the HOA for something other than that particular homeowner's individual liability will not be an "insured risk"
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Old 04-12-2012, 14:22   #199
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What lawyer?

Source?

And would you mind explaining what an "automatic pass" is?
His new lawyer, a well known Orlando defense atty.

In general terms the automatic pass is a pretrial evidentiary challenge by the defense where the prosecutor must show they have adequate evidence to eliminate self-defense as a defense.

It is being discussed in multiple media and legal venues. Google it...stop being pissy with all these questions that have been answered and discussed before.
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Old 04-12-2012, 14:24   #200
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Initially, there was, which was mostly on her pants, and the sidewalk where she ultimately hopped/crawled to. It was not sustained for a long period of time though. I was actually surprised to hear it was broken when she was x-rayed.


ETA - if I find the photos I will post if it's not against TOS
Unfortunately, it is against the rules.
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