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Old 04-10-2012, 15:49   #1
YtownGlock
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No sign :)

...Or not :(

I'm pretty sure in most states, including mine, if an establishment, store, etc does not want firearms on their premises they have to post at any and all entrances that prohibit firearms for patrons to clearly see.

But what happens when you enter a store or an establishment and off to the side on a wall or behind an obstruction the sign is posted, but it wasn't posted at the entrance like it should have been.

Do you continue to conceal carry? OR do you take the walk of shame back to your car and lock it up?

Last edited by YtownGlock; 04-10-2012 at 15:52..
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Old 04-10-2012, 16:01   #2
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Depends on the state/situation. In Michigan signs don't have force of law (in my opinion). I'd continue to carry. I believe you are from Ohio. If I were in Ohio and I saw it I'd leave and not go back.
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Old 04-10-2012, 16:21   #3
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Signs have no force of law in Indiana, so I don't concern myself with them. If you are requested to leave (ie, they see your gun and ask you to leave), and you refuse, you can be charged with trespassing... but the gun is irrelevant to this.. as it would be the same charge if you didn't have a gun and were asked to leave for some reason.
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Old 04-10-2012, 16:37   #4
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Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
Depends on the state/situation. In Michigan signs don't have force of law (in my opinion). I'd continue to carry. I believe you are from Ohio. If I were in Ohio and I saw it I'd leave and not go back.

Would you elaborate on the Ohio comment please?
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Old 04-10-2012, 18:46   #5
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Ohio is a trespassing issue as well. No worries about the signs.
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Old 04-10-2012, 19:33   #6
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at every place i've seen a sign, they did not have the legal size correct sign posted.
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Old 04-10-2012, 19:35   #7
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in my state, signs must be posted on the entrance (and not within the building) in order for them to be "legal."
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Old 04-10-2012, 19:46   #8
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Ohio is a trespassing issue as well. No worries about the signs.
Not true. In ohio the signs carry the force of law. If caught it is a criminal matter.

The law in Ohio is written such that "knowingly" violating the sign is a crime. If the sign is hidden as you say and you didn't see it when coming in, I think you might be able to make a reasonable argument that you didn't know. However, as soon as you do see the sign, you should leave the establishment and either

1) leave and come back unarmed or
2) leave and don't come back since they don't want your business.
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Old 04-10-2012, 19:48   #9
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MS has enhanced carry. The sign means nothing if you have it. If you are made and the person in charge of the store, owner, etc asks you to leave then you must; if not you face trespassing charges.
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Old 04-10-2012, 19:48   #10
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Ohio statue:
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(3) (a) Except as provided in division (C)(3)(b) of this section, the owner or person in control of private land or premises, and a private person or entity leasing land or premises owned by the state, the United States, or a political subdivision of the state or the United States, may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises. Except as otherwise provided in this division, a person who knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature is guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and is guilty of a misdemeanor of the fourth degree. If a person knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature and the posted land or premises primarily was a parking lot or other parking facility, the person is not guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and instead is subject only to a civil cause of action for trespass based on the violation.
And now that I think back on it if it were Michigan I'd probably leave and not come back either but it would depend on the situation.
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Old 04-11-2012, 07:17   #11
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Originally Posted by IndyGunFreak View Post
Signs have no force of law in Indiana, so I don't concern myself with them. If you are requested to leave (ie, they see your gun and ask you to leave), and you refuse, you can be charged with trespassing... but the gun is irrelevant to this.. as it would be the same charge if you didn't have a gun and were asked to leave for some reason.
This is the same for MO.

Whether or not your carrying, if you are asked to leave and don't, then trespassing could/will be the charge.

The key is, if they ask you to leave, leave!



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Old 04-11-2012, 08:12   #12
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Not true. In ohio the signs carry the force of law. If caught it is a criminal matter.

The law in Ohio is written such that "knowingly" violating the sign is a crime. If the sign is hidden as you say and you didn't see it when coming in, I think you might be able to make a reasonable argument that you didn't know. However, as soon as you do see the sign, you should leave the establishment and either

1) leave and come back unarmed or
2) leave and don't come back since they don't want your business.
+1 to this.

In Ohio, you really don't want to be sitting in court trying to argue the definition and application of "conspicuous" in your circumstance. If you see that sign, get out.
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Old 04-11-2012, 11:26   #13
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Yeah I am from Ohio. But the two times I have been in this situation I didn't see the sign UNTIL I was actually leaving. Never told to leave though. After Governor Kasich signed the Restaurant Carry Bill I have been carrying to every bar I go to (Obviously, I don't drink, DUH!) and there is one bar that has a transparent plastic sign on their front glass door that is really friggin hard to see that says "*** LLC. bans firearms on the premises." Good thing their side door doesnt have this sign, so I go in that way :D. Not against the law to carry in a bar anymore, just against the property owners wishes (Correction: I overlooked the ohio statute before posting that). And if for some reason an employee or member of management saw my gun and told me to leave, I would gladly get up and leave and then hand them one of those Ohio Do Not Patronize While Armed cards.

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Old 04-11-2012, 11:32   #14
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Why would a gun-hating store want to put up a sign? They righteously assume that nearly all people are unarmed, so why put up signs?
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Old 04-11-2012, 13:16   #15
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I put down the items on the counter and say I'm sorry but I must leave and will not patronize you establishment until you remove the sign and neither will my friends.
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Old 04-11-2012, 13:40   #16
YtownGlock
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This is what gun hating stores should put up:
Carry Issues
LOL

Last edited by YtownGlock; 04-11-2012 at 13:41..
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Old 04-11-2012, 14:14   #17
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I'm also from Ohio. If I'm heading into a store and see a sign, I turn right around and go someplace else. Later, when I get home, I send an email to the store or their corporate office (depending the store) explaining why I will no longer be giving them my business and attach a scan of my receipt of the purchases I made at their competitor.
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Old 04-11-2012, 16:25   #18
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Not true. In ohio the signs carry the force of law. If caught it is a criminal matter.

The law in Ohio is written such that "knowingly" violating the sign is a crime. If the sign is hidden as you say and you didn't see it when coming in, I think you might be able to make a reasonable argument that you didn't know. However, as soon as you do see the sign, you should leave the establishment and either

1) leave and come back unarmed or
2) leave and don't come back since they don't want your business.

I stand corrected partially. It is criminal trespass if you are inside the building and civil trespass if you are not.

Either way, I still avoid places with signs regardless of their status.

I have a confusing one here in TN. There is a mall that took the signs off the doors but as I was leaving their parking lot I saw they mounted signs to the stop signs (I did not see any on the way in!)?!?!? Not sure about the legality of that one...
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Old 04-11-2012, 19:21   #19
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In WI signs carry legal weight but need to meet legal requirements. I've seen only one place properly posted. I tend to stay away from places with "come rob me" signs. I figure my business is not desired so why risk my safety.

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Old 04-11-2012, 19:36   #20
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If a private business doesnt want me to carry guns on their propery, I will honor that request as soon a I realize it. If its on the outside I wont go in... If i see a sign on the inside, I will leave. I would want the same respect on my property.
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Old 04-11-2012, 20:04   #21
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If a private business doesnt want me to carry guns on their propery, I will honor that request as soon a I realize it. If its on the outside I wont go in... If i see a sign on the inside, I will leave. I would want the same respect on my property.
I would too. However, in my KS, the state law decides what the private business wants or not wants. I'll go by that first.
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Old 04-11-2012, 20:55   #22
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If a private business doesnt want me to carry guns on their propery, I will honor that request as soon a I realize it. If its on the outside I wont go in... If i see a sign on the inside, I will leave. I would want the same respect on my property.
Amen.

The right to control my own destiny and make my own decisions is at the core of gun rights and property rights. I respect the right of store owners to make bad decisions. I support their right to post the sign.

That being said, I see no reason why I should spend any money there. There are plenty of other fish in the sea.
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:53   #23
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Signs are signs are signs. Whether or not an additional penalty is assessed by a particular state makes no difference. Private property owners have the right to determine whether they want permitees with guns on their property. This includes business owners. Carrying in a business or private property in general where the owner/proprietor has made clear their desire to prohibit firearm carry is a loser move. That said, if they don't post where an average person could see it at the entrance, they're not making their wishes clear. Doom on them.
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Originally Posted by YtownGlock View Post
...Or not :(

I'm pretty sure in most states, including mine, if an establishment, store, etc does not want firearms on their premises they have to post at any and all entrances that prohibit firearms for patrons to clearly see.

But what happens when you enter a store or an establishment and off to the side on a wall or behind an obstruction the sign is posted, but it wasn't posted at the entrance like it should have been.

Do you continue to conceal carry? OR do you take the walk of shame back to your car and lock it up?
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:46   #24
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Originally Posted by YtownGlock View Post
Yeah I am from Ohio. But the two times I have been in this situation I didn't see the sign UNTIL I was actually leaving. Never told to leave though. After Governor Kasich signed the Restaurant Carry Bill I have been carrying to every bar I go to (Obviously, I don't drink, DUH!) and there is one bar that has a transparent plastic sign on their front glass door that is really friggin hard to see that says "*** LLC. bans firearms on the premises." Good thing their side door doesnt have this sign, so I go in that way :D. Not against the law to carry in a bar anymore, just against the property owners wishes. And if for some reason an employee or member of management saw my gun and told me to leave, I would gladly get up and leave and then hand them one of those Ohio Do Not Patronize While Armed cards.
Regarding bolded part above. It certainly is illegal in Ohio if the bar is posted, as the place you're discussing is. You're engaging in a pretty foolish course of action. If the property owner decides to call the police instead of confronting an armed person who's ignoring his sign, you're going to end up arrested and charged and making your case in court. And whether the sign was "conspicuous" enough that you could have reasonably been expected to miss it is subjective enough that it's going to be almost entirely on the whim of the magistrate hearing your case. Have fun with that.
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:50   #25
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Regarding bolded part above. It certainly is illegal in Ohio if the bar is posted, as the place you're discussing is. You're engaging in a pretty foolish course of action. If the property owner decides to call the police instead of confronting an armed person who's ignoring his sign, you're going to end up arrested and charged and making your case in court. And whether the sign was "conspicuous" enough that you could have reasonably been expected to miss it is subjective enough that it's going to be almost entirely on the whim of the magistrate hearing your case. Have fun with that.
I was wondering how man people it was going to take to catch that thank you sir.

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