Florida LEO's: What's the real deal with Trayvon Martin? - Page 4

rahrah12 · 03-25-2012, 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cav

There is no reason to think either way.

The guy was 17 years old and in High School.

I find it strange that the lawyers for the teen objected to autopsy blood tests, and that the teen was on a 5 day suspention for just being tardy to school.

The big issue with this case is the media and black community have made it a circus and there are little facts.

Lets say neither one has any convictions for any crimes.

I think that the fact that there are little facts is what has helped lead to the outrage...

I feel like it was handled poorly and the police did a poor job getting ahead of this. I didn't understand why they were so quiet initially...

Misty02 · 03-25-2012, 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahrah12

It might...

Isn't Zimmerman 100 lbs heavier than Martin?

One article said nearly or almost 100lbs more, based on the police report he is 5’9”. The police report didn’t show his weight. http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...l%20Report.pdf

PS - In general,
This memo from the city may be informative: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

They’ve also posted some of the burglary reports: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/BurglaryReports.pdf (don’t laugh too hard about the flat screen Sonny Bravia on pg 9)

.

ithaca_deerslayer · 03-25-2012, 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanmac45

In NY state following someone in public is an offense.

Never heard of that. Do you have the law citation handy? Thanks

**RussP** · 03-25-2012, 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southswede

His pictures have been removed.......

Yes, they were not of the Trayvon Martin in this case.

***seanmac45*** · 03-25-2012, 20:50

It's under the NYS Penal Law code for harassment.

S 240.26 Harassment in the second degree.
A person is guilty of harassment in the second degree when, with
intent to harass, annoy or alarm another person:
1. He or she strikes, shoves, kicks or otherwise subjects such other
person to physical contact, or attempts or threatens to do the same; or
2. He or she follows a person in or about a public place or places; or
3. He or she engages in a course of conduct or repeatedly commits acts
which alarm or seriously annoy such other person and which serve no
legitimate purpose.
Subdivisions two and three of this section shall not apply to
activities regulated by the national labor relations act, as amended,
the railway labor act, as amended, or the federal employment labor
management act, as amended.
Harassment in the second degree is a violation.

***seanmac45*** · 03-25-2012, 20:53

We used that code back in the old days prior to the enactment of the more recent statutes involving stalking.

It was merely a violation but it served as a good starting point for having a nice and up close chat with the offender, especially if they were going after a female.

Cav · 03-25-2012, 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanmac45

It's under the NYS Penal Law code for harassment.

S 240.26 Harassment in the second degree.
A person is guilty of harassment in the second degree when, with
intent to harass, annoy or alarm another person:
1. He or she strikes, shoves, kicks or otherwise subjects such other
person to physical contact, or attempts or threatens to do the same; or
2. He or she follows a person in or about a public place or places; or
3. He or she engages in a course of conduct or repeatedly commits acts
which alarm or seriously annoy such other person and which serve no
legitimate purpose.
Subdivisions two and three of this section shall not apply to
activities regulated by the national labor relations act, as amended,
the railway labor act, as amended, or the federal employment labor
management act, as amended.
Harassment in the second degree is a violation.

So if you just want to see what someone is doing or call the police and want to point them out, its no violation to follow them?

Is a gated community, thats closed to the general public, and reserved for the residents, seen as public property?

***seanmac45*** · 03-25-2012, 21:18

Good points; from phone calls to his girlfriend it was clear that he was alarmed. As to it being a gated community, I would have to know what the laws are in Florida.

In NY we have gated communities and on the streets of such, codes involving offenses to public order are enforceable.

Another factor is Zimmerman's status as a block watcher or whatever it's called, it might render him safe from prosecution for such behavior.

As I said before this whole thing stinks with regards to the behavior of both involved parties.

usmc2537gunny · 03-25-2012, 21:21

This IMO does not look good for Zimmerman. He did the right thing by calling the police, just about everything after that goes south. He was told by the dispatcher to discontinue following Martin. Even as he followed Martin he was safe in his vehicle. I believe once he exited the car he found himself in more of a struggle than he could handle. Martin reportedly was on the phone with his girlfriend and mentioned he was being followed. I believe Martin's actions were that of someone trying to protect one's self. Zimmerman seems to have been the aggressor and caused this to escalate. Therefor you can't then hide behind the Stand you Ground law. I do believe in the end Zimmerman will be charged, causing a big shake up within the Sanford police department. Then there will be the civil court case against Zimmerman and the city of Sanford.

Southswede · 03-25-2012, 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by RussP

Yes, they were not of the Trayvon Martin in this case.

Interesting......

ithaca_deerslayer · 03-26-2012, 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanmac45

We used that code back in the old days prior to the enactment of the more recent statutes involving stalking.

It was merely a violation but it served as a good starting point for having a nice and up close chat with the offender, especially if they were going after a female.

Thanks for the info. Seems intent to harass is a key part of it. A neighborhood watch person following to see if crime is being commited, probably wouldn't be interpreted as harassment.

Brucev · 03-26-2012, 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by usmc2537gunny

This IMO does not look good for Zimmerman. He did the right thing by calling the police, just about everything after that goes south. He was told by the dispatcher to discontinue following Martin. Even as he followed Martin he was safe in his vehicle. I believe once he exited the car he found himself in more of a struggle than he could handle. Martin reportedly was on the phone with his girlfriend and mentioned he was being followed. I believe Martin's actions were that of someone trying to protect one's self. Zimmerman seems to have been the aggressor and caused this to escalate. Therefor you can't then hide behind the Stand you Ground law. I do believe in the end Zimmerman will be charged, causing a big shake up within the Sanford police department. Then there will be the civil court case against Zimmerman and the city of Sanford.

About right.

rockapede · 03-26-2012, 06:33

I'd just like to point out that a person's criminal history is usually irrelevant in a self-defense case (except in the court of public opinion) because it's typically unknown to the other party.

merlynusn · 03-26-2012, 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by usmc2537gunny

This IMO does not look good for Zimmerman. He did the right thing by calling the police, just about everything after that goes south. He was told by the dispatcher to discontinue following Martin. Even as he followed Martin he was safe in his vehicle. I believe once he exited the car he found himself in more of a struggle than he could handle. Martin reportedly was on the phone with his girlfriend and mentioned he was being followed. I believe Martin's actions were that of someone trying to protect one's self. Zimmerman seems to have been the aggressor and caused this to escalate. Therefor you can't then hide behind the Stand you Ground law. I do believe in the end Zimmerman will be charged, causing a big shake up within the Sanford police department. Then there will be the civil court case against Zimmerman and the city of Sanford.

The problem with your sequence of events is this: After Zimmerman got out of the car, Martin ran away with Zimmerman following him. Zimmerman even says in his 911 call that he lost sight of Martin and was going back to his truck to meet the police.

What happened next is the key thing and no one knows but Zimmerman and Martin. Obviously they got into a fight at this point. The question would be "Did Martin attack Zimmerman while he was walking back to his truck or did Zimmerman attack Martin after 'finding' him again."

And while Zimmerman may have "100 pounds" on Martin, he's in the obese category. It isn't like it's 100 pounds of muscle. I don't know too many out of shape (you can hear him huffing and puffing on the 911 tape) 5'9, ~260# people who will attack a 6'2, 160# person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cav

I do question what Mr Z's injuries were. That would open a lot of light for me.

He was bleeding from the back of his head, the face/nose area and had grass stains on his back and his back was wet as if he were on the ground.

My opinion is that he was on the ground on his back (which we all know is a bad place to be) with Martin on top and the injuries to the back of his head was getting pounded by Martin in the front with his head hitting the ground after each strike.

Cav · 03-26-2012, 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlynusn

And while Zimmerman may have "100 pounds" on Martin, he's in the obese category. It isn't like it's 100 pounds of muscle. I don't know too many out of shape (you can hear him huffing and puffing on the 911 tape) 5'9, ~260# people who will attack a 6'2, 160# person.

He was bleeding from the back of his head, the face/nose area and had grass stains on his back and his back was wet as if he were on the ground.

My opinion is that he was on the ground on his back (which we all know is a bad place to be) with Martin on top and the injuries to the back of his head was getting pounded by Martin in the front with his head hitting the ground after each strike.

Mr Z from what I read was not near 260lbs or even 250lbs, thats the biased media, same as the old photo of him looking like a bum. He might have been 200+ lbs. same for the teen, media makes him to be 14 years old a football star, yet he has not been on a real team since 14 and is at least 3 year older than the photo. I would guess Mr Z was not in shape, and the teen was in shape.

I read the injury report, but question how bad were the injuries. Was his nose fractured, were there cuts to his face from punches. How was the back of his head injured, ice tea can, soft grass, pavement. There is a lot more I would like to know, but set people seem to have a set agenda, and we the public are getting limited biased info. I just want fair info or no info.

expatman · 03-26-2012, 08:49

People keep saying that Z was the agressor. I call BS on that. Just following someone does not make you and aggressor so we should drop that line of thought IMO. Striking someone does indeed make one an agressor though and we know via eye witness accounts that T was striking Z while Z was on his back on the ground prior to T being shot.

***Dragoon44*** · 03-26-2012, 09:03

According to Zimmerman's attorney Zimmerman's nose was broken and there was a cut on the back of his head.

The partial report released by Sanford PD Officers documented the bloody nose, the blood on the back of the head, grass on his back. And the fact that he was treated by EMS on the scene.

The full report and the EMS records should prove or disprove what his lawyer says.

as far as who started what. even if Zimmerman started it and even if zimmerman tried to Grab Trayvon. Fighting free and even knocking the guy down is self defense. getting on top of him and pounding away makes you now the aggressor.

dpadams6 · 03-26-2012, 09:16

Anyone notice how all the pictures shown of trayvon are when he was younger and smaller? I want to see the pictures of recent and taken at random not posing for school or football pictures.

rahrah12 · 03-26-2012, 09:52

If Trayvon was scared for his life from this guy following/stalking him what is he allowed to do in the state of Florida? Would "stand your ground" apply to Trayvon if he was indeed scared for his life.

What if Zimmerman grabbed him?

What if Zimmerman tried to apprehend him?

Is it true that the initial report did not indicate any injuries to Zimmerman and was later amended to show that he had injuries once this started to blow up? Is this common?

I also read hat Zimmerman told the police that he got out of the truck to read the street sign so that he could report it to the 911 operator. On his way back to the truck he was attacked by Trayvon.

***Dragoon44*** · 03-26-2012, 10:25

Quote:

If Trayvon was scared for his life from this guy following/stalking him what is he allowed to do in the state of Florida? Would "stand your ground" apply to Trayvon if he was indeed scared for his life.

The key here is "Stand your ground" not "launch an assault".

Listening to the 911 tapes I am having trouble seeing Trayvon as being fearful of his life. Does someone fearful of their life stare at someone else and then attempt to approach them? That is documented on the 911 tapes.

Quote:

What if Zimmerman grabbed him?

What if Zimmerman tried to apprehend him?

Then Zimmerman would be the initial aggressor and wrong.

( as an aside I think Zimmerman was an idiot and wrong to begin with).

If zimmerman was the aggressor Trayvon was justified in resisting him. He would not however be justified in getting on top of the guy and pounding away on him. That is going beyond self defense.

Quote:

Is it true that the initial report did not indicate any injuries to Zimmerman and was later amended to show that he had injuries once this started to blow up? Is this common?

Who claims the initial report did not indicate any injuries?

Quote:

I also read hat Zimmerman told the police that he got out of the truck to read the street sign so that he could report it to the 911 operator. On his way back to the truck he was attacked by Trayvon.

That is Zimmerman's story.

rahrah12 · 03-26-2012, 10:41

Quote:

The key here is "Stand your ground" not "launch an assault".

Listening to the 911 tapes I am having trouble seeing Trayvon as being fearful of his life. Does someone fearful of their life stare at someone else and then attempt to approach them? That is documented on the 911 tapes.

Depends on the circumstances. Who's 911 call? Zimmerman said that his back was turned and didn't see it coming. Eye witness?

Quote:

Then Zimmerman would be the initial aggressor and wrong.

( as an aside I think Zimmerman was an idiot and wrong to begin with).

If zimmerman was the aggressor Trayvon was justified in resisting him. He would not however be justified in getting on top of the guy and pounding away on him. That is going beyond self defense.

Agreed - but assuming that most fights last less than 30sec. Trayvon might've just gotten the upper hand. If I am by myself I don't know how far I would go. (all speculation)

Quote:

Who claims the initial report did not indicate any injuries?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...#storylink=cpy

One of a few sites that I read that on...

Quote:

That is Zimmerman's story.

Sharky7 · 03-26-2012, 10:44

I find it hard to believe he got out of the vehicle to only look for a street sign.

George Zimmerman Trayvon Martin 911 Call - YouTube

You can hear the wind in the call on the cell phone even after he is told to he does not need to follow. When he asks for the 911 dispatcher to have the police call him when they arrive to see where he is along with his statements of how they always gets away leads me to believe he continued to follow Martin. Especially since Martin took off running - if you think someone is up to no good (regardless if you have logical backing for it) and someone runs, you are going to want to chase them.

I would like to see an overhead/overlap map of where Zimmerman's car was parked, where he first saw Martin, the route he followed him, and where the actual confrontation took place.

I could be wrong - but the BS flag is going up for me. It's like the same dumb road rage incidents when people say they have no reason why the other person attacked them. I find it hard to believe Martin took off running away from Zimmerman, only to circle back and then attack. It sounds more like Zimmerman's way of stretching the truth since he was told not to continue following.

Glock30Eric · 03-26-2012, 10:51

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?singlepost=2902198

Sharky7 · 03-26-2012, 11:04

Sharky7 · 03-26-2012, 11:04