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Old 05-19-2012, 17:30   #851
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Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
It's all about being reasonable though.

What observations did Zimmerman truly have to lead him to believe a crime has been committed, will be committed, or is being committed?

There's nothing that occurred that would make me act, even as an off duty police officer. There's no way I would get out of my vehicle and begin following Martin with the information that Zimmerman had.

http://www.documentcloud.org/documen...zimmerman.html

"This guy looks like he is up to no good."
"he's on drugs or something."
"It's raining out and he is just walking around, looking about."
Based on what has been put out, by Zimmerman and Martins Family, I think there was reason to follow him.

Now you dont work where I work. You might not have the crime that my city has, but my off duty officers I think would have followed Trayvon and called it in, just like Zimmerman.

Remember Trayvons G.F. told a story too and you need to take that into account. Do you recall what she said? She said a lot more than many might think...

You work a set area. You know the locals. You know there are homes that have been broken into. You see a strange guy, you have never seen before. He looks around and puts up his hoody, so you cant even get an idea of what he looks like. He is walking around from home to home in the rain, tossing his hands around and stopping at doorways to homes and then looking back at you and walking away.

You say "who cares" and drive off?
Or would you call the police and then just drive off?
Or would you call the police and follow while you wait for on duty police?

I know what my guys would do, and we make some good arrests that way.

What would you do on duty in that situation, wave? I mean you feel there is no reason to think he is up to anything.

But we do know now that Trayvon only had some ice tea and Skittles that he was messing with, along with his phone. No gun, no screw drivers or bump keys, etc...

While I can see where some might take issue with Zimmerman following in hindsight, I think he did what most people that care about where they live would do. the right thing. It just ended bad.

I want my community to call in and follow bad guys. I dont want them to go hands on and take the risks officers get paid, trained, and equiped to take.

I have read nothing to support Zimmerman chased down Trayvon and went hands on, taking the law into his own hands. I do think Trayvon ambushed Zimmerman though.
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Old 05-19-2012, 18:38   #852
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Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
We can't be sure that is true, none of us have seen the investigator reports.

One of the biggest things as an investigator that starts setting off alarms for me is his reason why he exited the vehicle.

If you look at the overheard GPS map and where the scuffle occurred, it is obvious he did not exit his vehicle to check for a street sign. Did he expect to find a street sign in someone's backyard?

I also think there is a lot more information that all of us don't have at our access. The detective who met with him and did a walk through the following day wanted to pursue criminal charges. To me, that says something.

Zimmerman's actions and words are extremely important to determine what Martin was thinking. Was Martin in fear of HIS life with someone who is not a police officer following him at night? I have read stories in Carry Issues where CCWers fear for their lives when they are asked for change by a pedestrian while at a gas station. Is it unreasonable to be in some type of fear when a person is following you?
Not taking 100% sides either way, but it is easy to understand how people are skeptical of Zimmerman's actions. I can't take sides, don't have enough information. None of us do.
You seem to be mirroring my thought process pretty closely on this whole incident.

Based on that, I can only conclude you must be correct..

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Old 05-19-2012, 18:58   #853
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183 pages on this one, plenty of reading! http://media.miamiherald.com/smedia/...OYtz.So.56.pdf

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Old 05-19-2012, 19:16   #854
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I've only heard of ONE statement from any eye witness so far:



http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/new...erman-03232012

Also:


http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhoo...6#.T23plzEgdp8


Now, whether Zimmerman should have been following or not is not settled. Martin may have been beating the crap out of him, but it MIGHT have been because he was in fear of his OWN life. But at the point Zimmerman is on the ground getting pummeled (assuming the witness account is accurate), does that change anything?
Ok so if I go looking in someone back window at night at the back of there house & then I walk off & I think someone is following me I then have the right to beat the man to death just because I fear for my safety? You can't beat on someone just because you think they are following you.
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Old 05-19-2012, 19:21   #855
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Originally Posted by Cav View Post
Based on what has been put out, by Zimmerman and Martins Family, I think there was reason to follow him.

Now you dont work where I work. You might not have the crime that my city has, but my off duty officers I think would have followed Trayvon and called it in, just like Zimmerman.

Remember Trayvons G.F. told a story too and you need to take that into account. Do you recall what she said? She said a lot more than many might think...

You work a set area. You know the locals. You know there are homes that have been broken into. You see a strange guy, you have never seen before. He looks around and puts up his hoody, so you cant even get an idea of what he looks like. He is walking around from home to home in the rain, tossing his hands around and stopping at doorways to homes and then looking back at you and walking away.

You say "who cares" and drive off?
Or would you call the police and then just drive off?
Or would you call the police and follow while you wait for on duty police?

I know what my guys would do, and we make some good arrests that way.

What would you do on duty in that situation, wave? I mean you feel there is no reason to think he is up to anything.

But we do know now that Trayvon only had some ice tea and Skittles that he was messing with, along with his phone. No gun, no screw drivers or bump keys, etc...

While I can see where some might take issue with Zimmerman following in hindsight, I think he did what most people that care about where they live would do. the right thing. It just ended bad.

I want my community to call in and follow bad guys. I dont want them to go hands on and take the risks officers get paid, trained, and equiped to take.

I have read nothing to support Zimmerman chased down Trayvon and went hands on, taking the law into his own hands. I do think Trayvon ambushed Zimmerman though.
On duty, for your guys or you to stop/detain/investigatory stop/terry stop (whatever you want to call it in your area), you need to have reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed, is being or committed, or will be committed. Otherwise, you will be losing that one at a Motion to Suppress hearing. Then you lose the whole case. Not quite sure the facts below will meet that burden, at least not in Cook County. I think Zimmerman had nothing more than a hunch. Someone's hood up in the rain is not suspicious. Or you could try a consensual contact or obtain a vehicle code type violation on the pedestrian. Even better is to call over your plain clothes units and watch him for a bit.

Zimmerman had:
-A guy walking in the rain with his hood up.
-Looking back at the civilian vehicle following him
-"This guy looks like he is up to no good."
-"he's on drugs or something."
-"It's raining out and he is just walking around, looking about."
-Zimmerman's claims of recent crime in area/ unknown of dates, times, locations, or suspect description

You say it was "the right thing" - I don't agree. Sure - you think it is suspicious, go ahead and call it in. You want to follow the guy at a distance in your car, go ahead and have a blast. There is no reason Zimmerman should have exited his car and I don't believe his story on why he claimed he did. There is no reason Zimmerman should have been in that backyard looking for a street sign according to his story.

So, you think Martin "ambushed" Zimmerman.....Was that ambush justified? What is Martin's motive for this attack?

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Old 05-19-2012, 19:29   #856
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Based on the report and the witness statement, it's obvious that Zimmerman was on the ground with Martin on the top in a fight. The question would be what Zimmerman thought was great bodily harm, which would justify the use of deadly force.

Should Zimmerman have been following Martin? Not in the least in my opinion. And even if he was following him, why did he not stay far enough away to just keep him in sight and direct the police to him?

I read in another article that Martin's facebook page showed the typical thug life attributes. The page has since been deleted or "fixed."
I think that is what zimmerman was doing & then martin took off like a bat out of hell. When Zimmerman was going back to his truck is when martin came up to him & said do you have a problem? Zimmerman said no & Martin said you do now & all most beat him to death! I would believe Zimmerman over that thug Martin anyday.JMO
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Old 05-19-2012, 19:37   #857
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I think that is what zimmerman was doing & then martin took off like a bat out of hell. When Zimmerman was going back to his truck is when martin came up to him & said do you have a problem? Zimmerman said no & Martin said you do now & all most beat him to death! I would believe Zimmerman over that thug Martin anyday.JMO
There is a map in this thread that shows the location of the fight. It is not near a truck.
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Old 05-19-2012, 20:07   #858
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How in the world are you getting that Trayvon was fighting for his life when he goes for a holstered gun? If someone has a holstered gun and you are ground pounding him, there is only one reason. Get the gun and shoot him.

You aren't trying to grab the gun and say "Oh look at how pretty it is, I hope he doesn't use it on me." If you are ground pounding someone who is screaming for help for almost a minute, and then go for his gun, how in the hell is that self defense and a "fight for his life"?

If that is the way it happened, I can completely understand Zimmerman saying he fought for his life because he did. No way the guy on top is fighting for his life. He's fighting to seriously injury to take another life.
If someone is following me and I get in a scuffle with them (hasn't been determined what exactly lead to the scuffle)...once it is determined that they have a gun it is now a fight for your life.

I haven't read anything indicating that either of the parties knew who the other was...

When did Trayvon actually go for the gun? If they are both wrestling for the gun they are both fighting for their life...

From Trayvons point of view he did not have a clue who this guy was that was following him. Do you think that the guy will not hesitate to pull his gun on Trayvon and shoot him once he stops fighting him? OR should Trayvon just say "sorry for hitting you I didn't know you were carrying."

How do you know Trayvon didn't do exactly that once he realized Zimmerman had a gun?

If Trayvon didn't know that the other guy had a gun than I could see it being completely one sided...
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Old 05-19-2012, 20:12   #859
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The only thing you can state with any certainty, based on what has been published so far, is that he was not in possession of any stolen goods at the time. You canít state he was not a burglar.

(have you forgotten the bag of womenís jewelry that was found in his possession at school?)



.
There is no evidence indicating that he was a burglar...

In fact the only criminal would be Zimmerman...he has assault on an officer and his wife filed a restraining order for domestic abuse...
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Old 05-19-2012, 20:14   #860
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If someone is following me and I get in a scuffle with them (hasn't been determined what exactly lead to the scuffle)...once it is determined that they have a gun it is now a fight for your life.

I haven't read anything indicating that either of the parties knew who the other was...

When did Trayvon actually go for the gun? If they are both wrestling for the gun they are both fighting for their life...

From Trayvons point of view he did not have a clue who this guy was that was following him. Do you think that the guy will not hesitate to pull his gun on Trayvon and shoot him once he stops fighting him? OR should Trayvon just say "sorry for hitting you I didn't know you were carrying."

How do you know Trayvon didn't do exactly that once he realized Zimmerman had a gun?

If Trayvon didn't know that the other guy had a gun than I could see it being completely one sided...
Alternatively, Zimmerman didn't know who this black teen (Martin) was, other than Zimmerman though he might have been a potential BG (evidenced by the 9-1-1 call), so if Martin and he got into a physical fight (however it may have started), Zimmerman's mindset was that 'the BG is attacking me!'
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Old 05-19-2012, 20:17   #861
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In fact the only criminal would be Zimmerman...he has assault on an officer and his wife filed a restraining order for domestic abuse...

What is your definition of a crime? Because society deems a criminal as one who commits a crime. Martin would be a criminal too.
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Old 05-19-2012, 20:19   #862
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Alternatively, Zimmerman didn't know who this black teen (Martin) was, other than Zimmerman though he might have been a potential BG (evidenced by the 9-1-1 call), so if Martin and he got into a physical fight (however it may have started), Zimmerman's mindset was that 'the BG is attacking me!'
I agree, so we potentially got 2 guys who think each other are the bad guys.

If Martin was open carrying then maybe Zimmerman would have known he was a good guy.
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Old 05-19-2012, 20:24   #863
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What is your definition of a crime? Because society deems a criminal as one who commits a crime. Martin would be a criminal too.
ok...
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Old 05-19-2012, 20:28   #864
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Alternatively, Zimmerman didn't know who this black teen (Martin) was, other than Zimmerman though he might have been a potential BG (evidenced by the 9-1-1 call), so if Martin and he got into a physical fight (however it may have started), Zimmerman's mindset was that 'the BG is attacking me!'
correct...

Cop Talk

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Old 05-19-2012, 20:28   #865
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The only thing you can state with any certainty, based on what has been published so far, is that he was not in possession of any stolen goods at the time. You can’t state he was not a burglar.

(have you forgotten the bag of women’s jewelry that was found in his possession at school?)
I didn't know about the bag of women's jewelry in his possession. Curiouser and curiouser.

Father will likely stonewall now, but interesting to know if some of those past burglaries at the apartment complex coincided with dates when he was visiting his father there.
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Old 05-19-2012, 20:39   #866
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correct...

Cop Talk
Just a hunch......but I'm guessing you have already made up your mind on this case and don't much care what the facts are.........
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Old 05-19-2012, 20:39   #867
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If someone is following me and I get in a scuffle with them (hasn't been determined what exactly lead to the scuffle)...once it is determined that they have a gun it is now a fight for your life.

I haven't read anything indicating that either of the parties knew who the other was...
One difference, though, is that George Zimmerman LIVED there, he belonged there, and he knew his neighbors. He was the neighborhood watch, not "self-appointed" as the media has tried to make out. As a neighborhood watch member, he saw someone out of the ordinary - and, by all accounts released - but he did NOT confront this stranger. He followed him to advise the police where the stranger was.

He didn't do this on a whim. There had been a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood. There were crimes being committed and a suddenly suspicious person appearing. Zimmerman didn't tell the 911 operator "I have the burglar!", he was calling in a suspicious person at a time of heightened awareness.

So, you're right, they didn't know each other. But Martin was in a neighborhood he was visiting and wouldn't really have known anyone. Zimmerman, on the other hand, would have likely been at least aware of others in the small community.

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When did Trayvon actually go for the gun? If they are both wrestling for the gun they are both fighting for their life...

From Trayvons point of view he did not have a clue who this guy was that was following him. Do you think that the guy will not hesitate to pull his gun on Trayvon and shoot him once he stops fighting him? OR should Trayvon just say "sorry for hitting you I didn't know you were carrying."
It is MOST likely (not definitive) that Martin didn't know there was a gun until the fight started. So, what is Martin's justification for hitting anyone at all? I don't care if someone is in your face, screaming obscenities, etc - that is NOT justification for getting physical. First person to throw a punch started the fight. Simple as that. I don't know that I've ever heard of "he was yelling at me!" as a valid defense to battery.

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How do you know Trayvon didn't do exactly that once he realized Zimmerman had a gun?

If Trayvon didn't know that the other guy had a gun than I could see it being completely one sided...
What evidence are you seeing or even assuming that Martin DID know there was a gun? Unless Zimmerman was just absolute crap at concealment - and by crap, I mean having it out and waving it like he was at the Alamo! - I don't see how Martin COULD have known, could have seen it in the dark, in the rain. I think it's a pretty major leap of faith - though not impossible, I'll grant - to even THINK that Martin through the punch because he saw and UNDRAWN weapon and immediately feared for his life. That just takes so many logic-jumps that my legs hurt just thinking about it!
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Old 05-19-2012, 20:42   #868
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Just a hunch......but I'm guessing you have already made up your mind on this case and don't much care what the facts are.........
Not at all...courts will determine what exactly happened but I fully expect Zimmerman to get off and am fine with that once it goes through the process...

But just out of curiosity what do the facts say? I didn't know all of the evidence was released yet...
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Old 05-19-2012, 20:43   #869
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Not at all...courts will determine what exactly happened but I fully expect Zimmerman to get off and am fine with that once it goes through the process...

But just out of curiosity what do the facts say? I didn't know all of the evidence was released yet...
Your posts have lead me to believe you don't care. So I'll not waste my time trying to explain them to you.
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Old 05-19-2012, 20:50   #870
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One difference, though, is that George Zimmerman LIVED there, he belonged there, and he knew his neighbors. He was the neighborhood watch, not "self-appointed" as the media has tried to make out. As a neighborhood watch member, he saw someone out of the ordinary - and, by all accounts released - but he did NOT confront this stranger. He followed him to advise the police where the stranger was.

He didn't do this on a whim. There had been a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood. There were crimes being committed and a suddenly suspicious person appearing. Zimmerman didn't tell the 911 operator "I have the burglar!", he was calling in a suspicious person at a time of heightened awareness.

So, you're right, they didn't know each other. But Martin was in a neighborhood he was visiting and wouldn't really have known anyone. Zimmerman, on the other hand, would have likely been at least aware of others in the small community.


It is MOST likely (not definitive) that Martin didn't know there was a gun until the fight started. So, what is Martin's justification for hitting anyone at all? I don't care if someone is in your face, screaming obscenities, etc - that is NOT justification for getting physical. First person to throw a punch started the fight. Simple as that. I don't know that I've ever heard of "he was yelling at me!" as a valid defense to battery.



What evidence are you seeing or even assuming that Martin DID know there was a gun? Unless Zimmerman was just absolute crap at concealment - and by crap, I mean having it out and waving it like he was at the Alamo! - I don't see how Martin COULD have known, could have seen it in the dark, in the rain. I think it's a pretty major leap of faith - though not impossible, I'll grant - to even THINK that Martin through the punch because he saw and UNDRAWN weapon and immediately feared for his life. That just takes so many logic-jumps that my legs hurt just thinking about it!
Zimmerman said that MArtin was going for his gun. It was unclear to me exactly when this took place.

Either way from Trayvons point of view once there is a scuffle for a gun it is a fight to the death...doesn't mean Trayvons actions were initially in the wrong...BUT from his point of view it is now a fight to the death. If he had won we would only have hs side of the story and that might inidicate something completely different that lead up to the fight.

From Zimmermans point of view from his side of the story he definitely was in a fight for his life...people can argue all day wether or not his actions helped lead up to the altercation...but ultimately the courts will decide.

As for the first part Trayvon was in a strange neighborhood with a strange man following him...being a dumb youth it seems like he might've made a few dumb decisions...
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Old 05-19-2012, 20:52   #871
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Your posts have lead me to believe you don't care. So I'll not waste my time trying to explain them to you.
Glad you weren't doing the detective work on this case...
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Old 05-19-2012, 20:53   #872
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As for the first part Trayvon was in a strange neighborhood with a strange man following him...being a dumb youth it seems like he might've made a few dumb decisions...
So Trayvon had never, ever been at his father's apartment complex before this? Cite please.
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Old 05-19-2012, 20:56   #873
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So Trayvon had never, ever been at his father's apartment complex before this? Cite please.
Why does that matter? They didn't know each other prior to this incident...
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Old 05-19-2012, 20:59   #874
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Zimmerman said that MArtin was going for his gun. It was unclear to me exactly when this took place.

Either way from Trayvons point of view once there is a scuffle for a gun it is a fight to the death...doesn't mean Trayvons actions were initially in the wrong...BUT from his point of view it is now a fight to the death. If he had won we would only have hs side of the story and that might inidicate something completely different that lead up to the fight.
According to the police report, one round was fired and the magazine was still full. The police speculated (because they weren't there either) that Martin's hand on the gun kept the weapon from cycling another round.

So, based on this...

The most logical scenario is that Martin attacked Zimmerman, taking him to the ground - supported by the injuries - putting Zimmerman in fear for his life and causing him to draw his weapon. At that point, Martin tried to get control of the weapon, and Zimmerman fired.

I have yet to see any evidence indicating the weapon was seen, fought over, or drawn prior to Zimmerman being attacked and put in a position where he was in fear of his life.

It is entirely possible it went a different way. But there hasn't been anything to support that. If such evidence comes to light, I'll be glad to revise my opinion, but with everything ELSE that's been pushed into the public so far - FAR too much, in my opinion! - I find it hard to believe there wouldn't be more out there showing differently.
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Old 05-19-2012, 21:08   #875
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According to the police report, one round was fired and the magazine was still full. The police speculated (because they weren't there either) that Martin's hand on the gun kept the weapon from cycling another round.

So, based on this...

The most logical scenario is that Martin attacked Zimmerman, taking him to the ground - supported by the injuries - putting Zimmerman in fear for his life and causing him to draw his weapon. At that point, Martin tried to get control of the weapon, and Zimmerman fired.

I have yet to see any evidence indicating the weapon was seen, fought over, or drawn prior to Zimmerman being attacked and put in a position where he was in fear of his life.

It is entirely possible it went a different way. But there hasn't been anything to support that. If such evidence comes to light, I'll be glad to revise my opinion, but with everything ELSE that's been pushed into the public so far - FAR too much, in my opinion! - I find it hard to believe there wouldn't be more out there showing differently.
I don't think that indicates that Martin attacked Zimmerman but that seems to be what happened.

From what I read of Zimmermans statement it did not seem like he was implying that Trayvon went for the gun once it was pulled although I would assume that he would. It sounded like from his statement that Trayvon was going for it prior to it being drawn...

I think there is a real possibility of Trayvon finding out that Zimmerman had a gun before it was pulled since there was a scuffle and he was on top of him...doesn't mean that your scenario doesn't make more logical sense.

I don't see why it is far fetched that maybe Trayvon thought that he was fighting for his life.

But the beauty of this is that it will all come out in court. It will come to light soon enough.
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42