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Old 03-27-2012, 18:36   #201
JuneyBooney
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Originally Posted by MeefZah View Post
I'm interested to see how it plays out.

Methinks there be (much) more to the story.
From the pictures of Trayvon he looks like a thug. From the reports I have heard from leo and news says he stole the "Skittles" and he was a "troubled youth" From what I heard on news and leo has been self defense by Zimmerman and I tend to believe that from the physical evidence. I am sure they will do a voice analysis of the screams and if it is Zimmerman along wiht nay blood on Trayvon it will show "self-defense". The pics of the boy at 12 is not the same as the pics at 17. He was not an innocent kid.

Zimmerman did what he had to do. Then when I see the kids going through Walgreens I think store owners should be able to shoot looters.

http://www.local10.com/news/Police-T...z/-/index.html
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Old 03-27-2012, 18:52   #202
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My scenario stands, and evidence evolves. Nothing else needs to be determined other than whether or not Zimmerman was lawfully in the situation he was.
What leads you to believe that Zimmerman's actions might be unlawful? ( not talking about the shooting itself.)

Zimmerman lives in that community which is private property.

While I have heard him referred to as self appointed I am not sure that is true. I read in at least one report that the Police Chief acknowledged that he was Captain of the neighborhood watch there.

If he was in fact authorized neighborhood watch captain, there is nothing unlawful about him checking out Martin who does not live in that community.
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Old 03-27-2012, 19:08   #203
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What leads you to believe that Zimmerman's actions might be unlawful? ( not talking about the shooting itself.)

Zimmerman lives in that community which is private property.

While I have heard him referred to as self appointed I am not sure that is true. I read in at least one report that the Police Chief acknowledged that he was Captain of the neighborhood watch there.

If he was in fact authorized neighborhood watch captain, there is nothing unlawful about him checking out Martin who does not live in that community.
I actually have no opinion one way or the other, as I haven't really delved too deeply into the circumstances leading up to the altercation. The only thing I keep seeing is the ad nauseam posting of the altercation and all of its nuances, which certainly make the fight itself seem as if it justifies deadly force from Zimmerman to Martin. This then only leaves whether or not Zimmerman was lawful in being there in the first place.

I won't lie, when the story first broke, my initial impressions were that it was a bit squirelly and over zealous and potentially unlawful for Zimmerman to have followed and or initiated contact. I don't believe that I've ever really heard of neighborhood watch people "patrolling" their neighborhoods in this manner, and as I recall when the story first broke there was some hub-bub about him being a whacker who had failed some PD applicant backgrounds, painted a picture of someone who intentially put himself there in an effort to "play cop". I haven't heard much mumbling of that lately, so perhaps it was typical media bull****, who knows.

Either way, as I look at this case with hindsight being 20/20, I find the shooting itself to be justified if and only if Zimmerman was lawfully following Martin. I agree with the accounts of the fight in that Zimmerman was probably trying to retreat and felt a danger to his life and was justified in using deadly force. If it is determined through all evidence that he was lawful in his "patrol" and "pursuit" of Martin, then it's case closed and the race baiters can go suck it. If it is determined that Zimmerman is unlawful in his "patrol" and "pursuit", than IMHO he is responsible for Martins death in the same way as I described in my scenario a few posts back.
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Old 03-27-2012, 19:27   #204
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According to reports the HOA Feb newsletter advised residents that if they were the victim of a crime after they called police they should contact their neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman.

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"If you've been the victim of a crime within the community, after calling the police, please contact our captain, George Zimmerman ... so we can be aware and help address the issue with other residents," the newsletter said. It added that the neighborhood watch group was looking for more participants at its monthly meetings.
So Zimmerman is not self appointed.

Also he was not out patrolling that night he was returning to his house from running an errand.

Were Zimmerman's actions foolish? I think so. But i could not call them unlawful prior to the shooting.
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Old 03-27-2012, 19:30   #205
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If it is determined through all evidence that he was lawful in his "patrol" and "pursuit" of Martin, then it's case closed and the race baiters can go suck it. If it is determined that Zimmerman is unlawful in his "patrol" and "pursuit", than IMHO he is responsible for Martins death in the same way as I described in my scenario a few posts back.
Everything I've read states he was not on any "patrol" but rather returning home from a personal errand when he spotted Martin. I still have not heard what could be construed as unlawful about him "observing" someone unknown to him in the neighborhood and acting "suspiciously" (whatever that means, but I'm certain there's a wide acceptance of interpretation there). "Pursuit" might be an interpretation of his actions but given his known role in the 'hood, observing suspicious activity and asking questions of strangers there is what it sounds like he routinely did.

Personally from what I know, I think everyone would have been better off if he never got out of his truck, though I still am having a difficult time seeing what was illegal about his following and observing Martin's actions. Thus, it would seem to me that the crux of the matter gets down to what actually happened once the two "engaged".
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Old 03-27-2012, 19:31   #206
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Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
From the pictures of Trayvon he looks like a thug. From the reports I have heard from leo and news says he stole the "Skittles" and he was a "troubled youth" From what I heard on news and leo has been self defense by Zimmerman and I tend to believe that from the physical evidence. I am sure they will do a voice analysis of the screams and if it is Zimmerman along wiht nay blood on Trayvon it will show "self-defense". The pics of the boy at 12 is not the same as the pics at 17. He was not an innocent kid.

Zimmerman did what he had to do. Then when I see the kids going through Walgreens I think store owners should be able to shoot looters.

http://www.local10.com/news/Police-T...z/-/index.html
What does a thug look like. I've searched the net but have found no pictures that makes him look like anything other than a punk kid. He was a tall stick. He was 6'-3" but only 150 pounds. OMG, he stole skittles. Zimmerman knew nothing of this kids life and did not report that he was in a commission of a crime when he pursued him. Im not going to say Zimmerman wasn't justified, he may have been, but Zimmerman has a checkered past himself. Resisting arrest. Domestic violence. Lets just wait and see what the grand jury says.

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Old 03-27-2012, 19:42   #207
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OMG, he stole skittles.
Is that true or just another internet generated smear?

I'm not sure how much any of this stuff really matters to the case, but I'm guessing if a case can really be made that Martin was there on suspension for a drug-related incident and was coming back after shoplifting and truly had struck a bus driver and whatever else is floating out there in the ether, if it gets to the level of a jury, this will be taken into account by the jurors.

I'm not trying to spread anything bad about this kid as I have no idea. I'm sure there's nothing I typed here that everybody hasn't already read. If the pot-residue baggie is true, odds are he'll have THC on his tox screen. I've never associated that as something particularly disposing one to violence but again, I'm sure it will be spun.
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Old 03-27-2012, 19:56   #208
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FiremanMike has made some good points. I'm glad to see some people not making up their mind with the bits and pieces being released. Forensics and investigation should be able to sort this out. Maybe Trayvon was legally standing his ground? How was he supposed to know who was following him. No neighborhood watch person is gonna have authority over me. No matter what the outcome is legally, I think Zimmerman is gonna have a civil problems. If you carry, then you have to realize that any situation that your in, can escalate to deadly force. With that said, some lawyer is gonna tell his family to sue for wrongful death. He pursued a person that was not in a commission of a crime, while carrying a deadly weapon, knowing it could escalate to deadly force.
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Old 03-27-2012, 19:58   #209
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but Zimmerman has a checkered past himself. Resisting arrest. Domestic violence. Lets just wait and see what the grand jury says.
No dog in this fight, but was curious about the above statement about the domestic violence. Wouldn't a DV conviction make it illegal for him to own a gun?

Just curious, I am just a new part timer....
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Old 03-27-2012, 19:59   #210
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With that said, some lawyer is gonna tell his family to sue for wrongful death. He pursued a person that was not in a commission of a crime, while carrying a deadly weapon, knowing it could escalate to deadly force.
If he is exonerated in criminal proceedings, doesn't Florida law preclude him from civil liability? That is a question, though that's what I've been lead to believe.
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Old 03-27-2012, 20:29   #211
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Interesting article

From a Facebook friend

http://pjmedia.com/jchristianadams/2...it-in-florida/
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Old 03-27-2012, 20:35   #212
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Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
From the reports I have heard from leo and news says he stole the "Skittles"
Could you please post a link to the report that he stole the "Skittles".
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Old 03-27-2012, 20:46   #213
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If he is exonerated in criminal proceedings, doesn't Florida law preclude him from civil liability? That is a question, though that's what I've been lead to believe.
If the shooting is found to be justified he has immunity to civil suits.
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Old 03-27-2012, 20:55   #214
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If the shooting is found to be justified he has immunity to civil suits.
Thanks for the clarification, Dragoon44!
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Old 03-27-2012, 21:10   #215
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If the shooting is found to be justified he has immunity to civil suits.
Couldn't a federal civil rights suit be filed? Florida law would not provide immunity from that.
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Old 03-27-2012, 21:21   #216
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Couldn't a federal civil rights suit be filed? Florida law would not provide immunity from that.
Federal charges are just that, federal. They are not a civil suit. You're confusing civil rights with a suit, a civil suit is when one entity sues another. A civil rights case is when the government presses charges against a person saying that person has violated another person's rights.
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Old 03-27-2012, 21:24   #217
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Couldn't a federal civil rights suit be filed? Florida law would not provide immunity from that.

you might want to read

http://www.eurweb.com/2012/03/earl-o...artin-slaying/
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Old 03-27-2012, 21:31   #218
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No dog in this fight, but was curious about the above statement about the domestic violence. Wouldn't a DV conviction make it illegal for him to own a gun?

Just curious, I am just a new part timer....
No conviction.

From what I first read it was a civil issue, where the ex filed on him and then he filed on her.

Later I read it was an arrest.

But based on the alligations, there was no conviction. IMHO it read like a woman scorn, pushed for charges, and she might have been the agressor...

So while he might have been accused or charged, he was never convicted.
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Old 03-27-2012, 21:54   #219
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I actually have no opinion one way or the other, as I haven't really delved too deeply into the circumstances leading up to the altercation. The only thing I keep seeing is the ad nauseam posting of the altercation and all of its nuances, which certainly make the fight itself seem as if it justifies deadly force from Zimmerman to Martin. This then only leaves whether or not Zimmerman was lawful in being there in the first place.

I won't lie, when the story first broke, my initial impressions were that it was a bit squirelly and over zealous and potentially unlawful for Zimmerman to have followed and or initiated contact. I don't believe that I've ever really heard of neighborhood watch people "patrolling" their neighborhoods in this manner, and as I recall when the story first broke there was some hub-bub about him being a whacker who had failed some PD applicant backgrounds, painted a picture of someone who intentially put himself there in an effort to "play cop". I haven't heard much mumbling of that lately, so perhaps it was typical media bull****, who knows.

Either way, as I look at this case with hindsight being 20/20, I find the shooting itself to be justified if and only if Zimmerman was lawfully following Martin. I agree with the accounts of the fight in that Zimmerman was probably trying to retreat and felt a danger to his life and was justified in using deadly force. If it is determined through all evidence that he was lawful in his "patrol" and "pursuit" of Martin, then it's case closed and the race baiters can go suck it. If it is determined that Zimmerman is unlawful in his "patrol" and "pursuit", than IMHO he is responsible for Martins death in the same way as I described in my scenario a few posts back.
Zimmerman lived in the gated community so he was authorized to be there. On a same note, Trayvon was visiting his father's girlfriend/fiancé who was also a resident, I.e., he was a guest and therefore authorized to be there as well.

WRT Zimmerman unlawfully following Trayvon, it is not against the law to follow or make contact with anyone.
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Old 03-28-2012, 04:55   #220
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[QUOTE=vkscott;18767439]Zimmerman lived in the gated community so he was authorized to be there. On a same note, Trayvon was visiting his father's girlfriend/fiancé who was also a resident, I.e., he was a guest and therefore authorized to be there as well.

WRT Zimmerman unlawfully following Trayvon, it is not against the law to follow or make contact with anyone.[/QUOTE]

I put tat last part in bold because it keeps coming up. People seem to keep wanting to gloss over that part. The relevant Fl. law has been cited regarding stalking which I think that would fall under (correct me if I am wrong) and it does not meet that standard.

I realize that many people in this and the other threads disagree about whether or not it is OK to follow someone or even make contact with someone but as far as I have seen up to this point it is lawful to follow and make contact by verbally addressing that person.

Another person (this thread or another) brought up the word "accosted" with regards to making verbal contact with Martin. I was provided a definition of that word and it states that one would need to be addressed in an intimidating, or hostile manner, IIRC. In this case I don't think we have evidence of Martin being accosted via verbal contact.

Can we please get past the follow/pursuit/accosted hump in this discussion? As has been pointed out in the bold portion of the quote, it is not against the law to follow or make contact with a person. That is not my opinion. That is the way the law is written.
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