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Old 03-28-2012, 11:48   #251
jrob6519
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Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
I'm probably going to be in the minority on the LE forum on this one;

I think that the shooter is the absolute aggressor in this case.

He had no right to be following anyone, and the whole incident stemmed from his actions.

Might be overly simplistic, but that is my opinion from what I have seen at this point, and yes, I am ignoring the blatant attempts at racially blowing it out of proportion. My litmus test is take the exact same fact pattern and make both participants white.

It stinks to high heavens both ways.
Another LEO in your camp..

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Old 03-28-2012, 11:50   #252
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That just gives me one more reason to move to Florida.

Here's my first reason.....
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Old 03-28-2012, 11:52   #253
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Originally Posted by 1911austin View Post
The most important presidential election in the last 100 years is approaching and the biggest news story in the country is an isolated incident between a young thug and a possibly overzealous neighborhood watchman. Only Zimmerman and maybe a handful of wittiness really know what happened but it seems that all 320+ million Americans have a strong opinion on what should happen with the case. While I personally do not know the facts of this case, it is very apparent they it us being used to “change the subject” about the real problems that plague our nation.
A good observation. Not just "change the subject" but change it along racial lines, which is directly related to the election. Given the unusual personal attention the president has given it, it makes you wonder.
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Old 03-28-2012, 11:55   #254
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Originally Posted by jrob6519 View Post
Another LEO in your camp..
I agree with both - (1) Zimmerman was an idiot and his action led to a fight that wouldn't have happened if he wasn't playing mall ninja, but (2) it still looks like a legally justified shooting. Those do not rule each other out.
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:04   #255
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That is correct. Get it down to the brass tac's. If "Captain" Kangaroo would have observed and reported and got out. Everyone would not be happy and alive. Whether or not Cops show up NMP. if they continue to fail the community to respond then it time to go to the city powers and pull some ears and get the system working. YOu can rationalize anything except common sense. Now if I come upon a scene in which he is attacking a person, then it's gloves off. Act to stop the attack. I cant stand Jessy Jackson
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:15   #256
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
I agree with both - (1) Zimmerman was an idiot and his action led to a fight that wouldn't have happened if he wasn't playing mall ninja, but (2) it still looks like a legally justified shooting. Those do not rule each other out.
^^^^

This. The problem is many seem to think that if #1 is true then some way must be found to punish Zimmerman. Even to the point of inventing criminal behavior where so far, none has come to light.

And even tot he point of thinking what Martin may have actually done is irrelevant.
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:31   #257
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
^^^^

This. The problem is many seem to think that if #1 is true then some way must be found to punish Zimmerman. Even to the point of inventing criminal behavior where so far, none has come to light.

And even tot he point of thinking what Martin may have actually done is irrelevant.
Yeah, I've noticed that too.
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:40   #258
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
^^^^

This. The problem is many seem to think that if #1 is true then some way must be found to punish Zimmerman. Even to the point of inventing criminal behavior where so far, none has come to light.

And even tot he point of thinking what Martin may have actually done is irrelevant.
I find this to be an entirely accurate summary.
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:41   #259
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Originally Posted by 1911austin View Post
The most important presidential election in the last 100 years is approaching and the biggest news story in the country is an isolated incident between a young thug and a possibly overzealous neighborhood watchman. Only Zimmerman and maybe a handful of wittiness really know what happened but it seems that all 320+ million Americans have a strong opinion on what should happen with the case. While I personally do not know the facts of this case, it is very apparent they it us being used to “change the subject” about the real problems that plague our nation.
^^^^^^^

This!!

Meanwhile, I'll await the Grand Jury results...

Prediction:
If the GJ comes down AGAINST Zimmerman, it will be front page news.
If the GJ comes down FOR Zimmerman, it will be a two sentence footnote on page 11 behind the cookbook recipes.

HH
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:52   #260
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
^^^^

This. The problem is many seem to think that if #1 is true then some way must be found to punish Zimmerman. Even to the point of inventing criminal behavior where so far, none has come to light.
It's been shown he wasn't criminal, but if he was reckless in his pretend game of mall cop, then he created the situation. This is of course, my own opinion.

Quote:
And even tot he point of thinking what Martin may have actually done is irrelevant.
I view the "following" and the "altercation" as two separate scenarios that need to be investigated separately and then put together. I'm not sure I ever implied that Martin's actions were irrelevant, but I do feel (and still feel) that Zimmerman's antics created this situation that didn't need created, and if that is the case then the actions of Martin during the altercation are irrelevant.

Again, to repeat, none of us here have all the facts, we're going off the racially charged media bias in all of this. I just don't feel that Zimmerman gets off without intense scrutiny simply because Martin was bouncing his head off the curb.

I think the end result of this case is that EVERYONE needs to really do some soul searching before they obtain that CCW, strap on their gun, and go out looking to be a neighborhood hero. Taking someones life is serious ****ing business that shouldn't be taken lightly. I always felt when I strapped on my badge and gun that it was my OBLIGATION to think 3 steps ahead and make every effort to prevent myself from taking someones life if possible, I still feel this way when I carry now as a normal Joe Blow CCW.

Bottom line, from the evidence that is presented, they were both wrong. It would appear that for now, Zimmerman was not criminally wrong, but ultimately he is still part of the cause of this situation, the other part being Martin choosing to both walk through the neighborhood that he probably knew was a gated private community, as well as his decision to turn on Zimmerman and attack him.
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They made bad choices and expect us to pay the price? I don't think so, Tim.

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Old 03-28-2012, 12:53   #261
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Listening to the 911 calls, I can't agree that Zimmerman was an idiot, overzealous, or anything else except concerned. When the dispatcher asked if he was following Martin, he said he was. The dispatcher advised him not to do that, and Zimmerman said OK. He actually says he lost sight of Martin. I have not heard anything that shows Zimmerman disregarded the dispatcher and continued to follow Martin despite many people saying otherwise. He was legally and lawfully carrying a concealed pistol, despite media reports hyping up arrests for domestic violence and battery on a police officer. How could he do so legally if those charges were accurate?

There isn't a "stand your ground" case here IMO, it sounds like Zimmerman was following Martin, told to back off by dispatch to which he complied, Martin then challenged Zimmerman as he was walking back to his truck, words were exchanged, Martin physically assaults Zimmerman knocking him to the ground, continues to pummel him, they fight over Zimmerman's gun and a lethal, single shot is fired into Martin. With all the contacts Zimmerman has had with others he has followed, why did they not escalate? Is it unreasonable to surmise, based on the evidence we have heard so far, that Martin did in fact assault Zimmerman and compel him to defend himself? Martin fired a single defensive shot, stopping the threat. He had not fired his gun in the past on the numerous times he encountered suspicious persons and called the cops immediately after Martin was shot. He did not hide, he did not give conflicting stories to officers, he has witnesses attesting that it was he who was on the ground screaming for help and not Martin. So far no one has called Zimmerman a proven hothead who was just aching to kill someone. No one has yet to say he was the kind to pick a fight or start a confrontation.

With all that is known so far, it appears to me with my 20 plus years on the job, that this was a case of self defense and the decedent (now with a trademarked name) is being lionized by race hustlers and Obama. If the Obamas were white, their son would have looked like Christopher Newsome.
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:53   #262
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Originally Posted by HoldHard View Post
^^^^^^^

This!!

Meanwhile, I'll await the Grand Jury results...

Prediction:
If the GJ comes down AGAINST Zimmerman, it will be front page news.
If the GJ comes down FOR Zimmerman, it will be a two sentence footnote on page 11 behind the cookbook recipes.

HH
If it comes doewn for Zimmerman it will be on the front page because of the riots to follow.
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Old 03-28-2012, 13:19   #263
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Ah, will it be the Zimmerman riots of 2012. Nice ring to it.

Or the hoodie riots? The Martin riots?
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Old 03-28-2012, 13:23   #264
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None of us have been there or even seen the report.
I don't care what the media reports, how often have they been wrong.
I find it however interesting who comments on this matter and again prejudging a person for political gain.
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Old 03-28-2012, 13:25   #265
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Ah, will it be the Zimmerman riots of 2012. Nice ring to it.

Or the hoodie riots? The Martin riots?
That has a nice ring to it.... You might want to talk to a lawyer and get it trademarked...

You could sell...
.
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.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Wait for it...
.
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.
.
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.
.
.
.
Hoodies....



HH
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Old 03-28-2012, 13:26   #266
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I'm not sure I ever implied that Martin's actions were irrelevant, but I do feel (and still feel) that Zimmerman's antics created this situation that didn't need created, and if that is the case then the actions of Martin during the altercation are irrelevant.
So in Short if Zimmerman's "antics" provoked Martin to attack him then Martins attack is ok with you. Is that what you are saying?

Quote:
Again, to repeat, none of us here have all the facts, we're going off the racially charged media bias in all of this. I just don't feel that Zimmerman gets off without intense scrutiny simply because Martin was bouncing his head off the curb.
I must be reading a different media than you are. it's Zimmerman that has been subject to intense scrutiny and Martin that has pretty much been given a pass to the point of trying to portray him as an innocent little kid.

Quote:
I think the end result of this case is that EVERYONE needs to really do some soul searching before they obtain that CCW, strap on their gun, and go out looking to be a neighborhood hero. Taking someones life is serious ****ing business that shouldn't be taken lightly. I always felt when I strapped on my badge and gun that it was my OBLIGATION to think 3 steps ahead and make every effort to prevent myself from taking someones life if possible, I still feel this way when I carry now as a normal Joe Blow CCW.
The problem as I see it is your posts reek of disdain for the "neighborhood watch guy". you present an attitude of, "If you ain't a cop you ain't **** and don't have the right to do anything." Whether that is your intention or not that is how you are coming across.

Let me remind you once again this did not play out on public property. It played out on PRIVATE property. Zimmerman was authorized by the HOA to be neighborhood watch.

As far as your views on preventing yourself from taking someones life at all possible, I don't identify. My criteria was necessity. The necessity to preserve my own or someone else's life. In the end my view on having to use deadly force was that it was the other guy that forced my hand in requiring me to react to HIS choices.

Quote:
Bottom line, from the evidence that is presented, they were both wrong. It would appear that for now, Zimmerman was not criminally wrong, but ultimately he is still part of the cause of this situation,
You can extend this to it's logical conclusion. The guy with a nice car in the wrong neighborhood is at fault for being carjacked.

The guy going to an ATM late at night in a bad neighborhood is wrong because he got robbed.

As much as I may deplore stupid behavior I don't see it as an excuse for criminal behavior.

( And I am not accusing Martin of criminal behavior, I am simply replying to YOUR scenario as posted.)
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Old 03-28-2012, 13:27   #267
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Originally Posted by FiremanMike View Post
I view the "following" and the "altercation" as two separate scenarios that need to be investigated separately and then put together. I'm not sure I ever implied that Martin's actions were irrelevant, but I do feel (and still feel) that Zimmerman's antics created this situation that didn't need created, and if that is the case then the actions of Martin during the altercation are irrelevant.
Not sure what you mean - even if everything claimed about Zimmerman is true, his actions were legal and, if Martin attacked him for following him, which is true according to 100% of the available evidence, then Martin committed a crime and Zimmerman did not and Zimmerman was entitled to defend himself.

If irritating somebody was enough to allow you to assault them, legally, I'd go home with bloody knuckles every night.
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Old 03-28-2012, 13:31   #268
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Originally Posted by MarcDW View Post
None of us have been there or even seen the report.
I don't care what the media reports, how often have they been wrong.
I find it however interesting who comments on this matter and again prejudging a person for political gain.
The link (<-- click) to the Sanford Florida police report was in post #10.

If you are talking about the Grand Jury report.... yes you are correct.

Which report are you referring to?

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Old 03-28-2012, 13:43   #269
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So in Short if Zimmerman's "antics" provoked Martin to attack him then Martins attack is ok with you. Is that what you are saying?
In essence, yes. I try to think what *I* would do if someone were following me, and so I propose the same question to you. I probably wouldn't have gone straight to blows, but again we're relying on the media reports I draw the conclusion that it went straight to blows. Did Martin take his attack too far? Well obviously..

Quote:
I must be reading a different media than you are. it's Zimmerman that has been subject to intense scrutiny and Martin that has pretty much been given a pass to the point of trying to portray him as an innocent little kid.
I didn't mean to imply that he wasnt under scrutiny. All I'm trying to do with my argument is to continue this scrutiny with peers in an open discussion. I also don't agree with the lack of scrutiny of Martin.


Quote:
The problem as I see it is your posts reek of disdain for the "neighborhood watch guy". you present an attitude of, "If you ain't a cop you ain't **** and don't have the right to do anything." Whether that is your intention or not that is how you are coming across.
Well that is definitely not my intention, but just because he is an appointed neighborhood watch man, he is not excused of liability from his actions.

Quote:
Let me remind you once again this did not play out on public property. It played out on PRIVATE property. Zimmerman was authorized by the HOA to be neighborhood watch.
See my above statement.

Quote:
As far as your views on preventing yourself from taking someones life at all possible, I don't identify. My criteria was necessity. The necessity to preserve my own or someone else's life. In the end my view on having to use deadly force was that it was the other guy that forced my hand in requiring me to react to HIS choices.
As long as it wasn't your goal to kill someone every time you went to work, then we're essentially on the same page. It was my goal to not kill anyone, but if it came down to it then it's go time.

Quote:



You can extend this to it's logical conclusion. The guy with a nice car in the wrong neighborhood is at fault for being carjacked.

The guy going to an ATM late at night in a bad neighborhood is wrong because he got robbed.

As much as I may deplore stupid behavior I don't see it as an excuse for criminal behavior.

( And I am not accusing Martin of criminal behavior, I am simply replying to YOUR scenario as posted.)
Hmm, I don't really agree that your conclusions relate to mine, sorry..
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Old 03-28-2012, 14:02   #270
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In essence, yes. I try to think what *I* would do if someone were following me, and so I propose the same question to you. I probably wouldn't have gone straight to blows, but again we're relying on the media reports I draw the conclusion that it went straight to blows. Did Martin take his attack too far? Well obviously..
I can tell you exactly what i would do if I thought someone was following me. I would stop and face them. Next move is theirs. I would also call 911 and report that someone was following me. ( Now I am on record as the complainant.)

I do not agree with your conclusion that if someone's antics irritate you that this allows you to launch an attack on them. And the Law does not agree either.

Your belief reminds of something posted a few weeks ago, the judge that said a Muslim was justified in attacking a man in a parade dressed as zombie Mohammed.

JUst because someone does something stupid or ill advised does not strip them of the right of self defense.
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Old 03-28-2012, 14:10   #271
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I can tell you exactly what i would do if I thought someone was following me. I would stop and face them. Next move is theirs. I would also call 911 and report that someone was following me. ( Now I am on record as the complainant.)

I do not agree with your conclusion that if someone's antics irritate you that this allows you to launch an attack on them. And the Law does not agree either.

Your belief reminds of something posted a few weeks ago, the judge that said a Muslim was justified in attacking a man in a parade dressed as zombie Mohammed.

JUst because someone does something stupid or ill advised does not strip them of the right of self defense.
Unfortunately, in the pages of responses that I've made on this thread thus far, my conclusion has been misconstrued a bit.

My conclusion is that I feel (based on the admittedly biased media as well as some things learned on this thread) that Zimmerman was acting like a whacker, and at the end of the day someone is dead. I did state, however, that I felt they were both wrong for various reasons.

My original question is whether or not Zimmerman's whackerness was unlawful, it has been relayed ad nauseam that it was not.

I'm truly not trying to be obstinate here.
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They made bad choices and expect us to pay the price? I don't think so, Tim.
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Old 03-28-2012, 14:21   #272
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Understood, and I am not trying to misrepresent your position.
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Old 03-28-2012, 14:38   #273
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I go back to what I earlier posted: how with this singular act affect peace officers and their agencies, both in Florida and elsewhere? We have race hustlers attempting to imply that the local PD failed to do their job, was complicit in a quasi cover-up and so on.

How does this affect cops short term and long?
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Old 03-28-2012, 14:50   #274
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I go back to what I earlier posted: how with this singular act affect peace officers and their agencies, both in Florida and elsewhere? We have race hustlers attempting to imply that the local PD failed to do their job, was complicit in a quasi cover-up and so on.

How does this affect cops short term and long?
It's not really going to do that much, just add it to the pile of bull**** that people blame on the police department. The anti-police will always be the anti-police. The facts of this case won't matter to them, all they see is the frenzy surrounding it and hop on the bandwagon because they are incapable of independent thought.
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They made bad choices and expect us to pay the price? I don't think so, Tim.
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Old 03-28-2012, 15:19   #275
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Angela Corey - Special Prosecutor

Question for our FL GTers. What do you know about Angela Corey and any thoughts as to her role in the GJ? I just did a quick Google search and ran across the Cristian Fernandez case, which is apparently now scheduled for trial. I don't know enough about that case to comment, but it certainly sounds like she is rather bold as a State's Atty.
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