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Old 03-31-2012, 10:01   #261
muscogee
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Originally Posted by jbotstein1 View Post
Aboslutely. I am going to be a doctor in 2 months. I entered my profession because I wanted to help people live their lives as healthily as they can. I would without a doubt jump in and save them. If you are trying to draw a parallel between someone drowning in water and someone "drowning" in life because they don't believe in a deity, I can't go down that road with you. It is a terrible analogy. I know for a fact that when someone aspirates, they develop a ventilation/perfusion mismatch in their lungs which leads to hypoxemia, brain damage, and finally death. That is fact. So, yes, I would save them from drowning.
The fundamentalist here will tell you that people don't die from drowning. They die from sin. It's the Emperor's New Clothes argument. If you don't agree with them it's because you're intellectually or morally impaired.
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Old 03-31-2012, 10:05   #262
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The fundamentalist here will tell you that people don't die from drowning. They die from sin. It's the Emperor's New Clothes argument. If you don't agree with them it's because you're intellectually or morally impaired.
I know. I choose not to argue with them because I don't think I can change their beliefs nor do I want to change their beliefs. It is clear as day that their beliefs make no sense whatsoever, but they feel the same way about atheists. Neither of us can know for sure who is right, but the important thing is to stay true to yourself and your beliefs.

My only complaint is when a religious person tries to convince me of their beliefs, yet get upset if I were to do the same to them. That is hypocritical and just plain annoying.

ETA: And that's what is frustrating about his entire thread. The reason atheists oppose any religion is because religious people feel it is their place to try and convince others of their own beliefs. The whole thing is hypocritical. I'm going to play golf. Have a nice Saturday to all.

Last edited by jbotstein1; 03-31-2012 at 10:08..
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Old 03-31-2012, 13:53   #263
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
The fundamentalist here will tell you that people don't die from drowning. They die from sin. It's the Emperor's New Clothes argument. If you don't agree with them it's because you're intellectually or morally impaired.
I always take that as a sign that I have won the Argument.

Having not effectively answered whatever point it was I made..........

"Oh, Poor Norske...what was it that turned you into such a bitter person?"

Oh, Poor Norske......you are wrong but as a pious (insert religion here) I will turn the other cheek and forgive your sacrilegious beliefs".

And so on, and so forth.

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Old 03-31-2012, 14:59   #264
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You do realize that you're going to die too, whether or not you believe in any particular religion, don't you?
That is a distinct possibility. But, I would want to do so full of hope and peace.
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Old 03-31-2012, 15:02   #265
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Originally Posted by jbotstein1 View Post
Aboslutely. I am going to be a doctor in 2 months. I entered my profession because I wanted to help people live their lives as healthily as they can. I would without a doubt jump in and save them. If you are trying to draw a parallel between someone drowning in water and someone "drowning" in life because they don't believe in a deity, I can't go down that road with you. It is a terrible analogy. I know for a fact that when someone aspirates, they develop a ventilation/perfusion mismatch in their lungs which leads to hypoxemia, brain damage, and finally death. That is fact. So, yes, I would save them from drowning.
It is a great analogy. Either way, you are attempting to preserve a life.
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Old 03-31-2012, 15:07   #266
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Many seriously ill people loose their minds. It has nothing to do with fear or the love of God. I've had several relatives loose their minds before they finally pass on. The relative who faced his death with the most dignity was an atheist. He was fearless and humorous to the end.
My Grandmother died without hope, and when the time was actually factually there, her mental state detiorated because she saw the grave and nothing more.

After my Grandparents were gone, I had an "adopted" Grandfather. A friend of the family, who essentially became family. He also died of cancer full of hope. He was looking forward to the resurrection.
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Old 03-31-2012, 16:43   #267
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It is a great analogy. Either way, you are attempting to preserve a life.
How can you disagree with an Islamic extremist who commits a suicide bombing with the belief(as strong or stronger than your own) that an afterlife greater than his current life awaits him? Would you rescue that person from drowning? What if you do rescue them from drowning and they then go on to kill 1,000 people?

I shot 83 BTW. 40-43, missed about 6, 5 foot or less putts for birdies. It poured down rain for the first 9 holes too.

ETA: I hate getting into these discussions. It is pointless to try to convince you, and pointless for you to try to convince me. I could ask you, what if aliens came down from outer space and said, we came to Earth 1,000s of years ago and planted the idea of a man named Jesus just to see what would become of that idea... You would still try to rationalize your beliefs, and tell those aliens they must be lying because you have faith that Jesus existed and was magical somehow.

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Old 03-31-2012, 16:51   #268
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Originally Posted by jbotstein1 View Post
How can you disagree with an Islamic extremist who commits a suicide bombing with the belief(as strong or stronger than your own) that an afterlife greater than his current life awaits him? Would you rescue that person from drowning? What if you do rescue them from drowning and they then go on to kill 1,000 people?
Your analogy is that of a homocide bomber, one who takes life. We are talking about preserving life.

So, you would allow a child to drown because he has olive skin which may or may not make him Muslim out of fear of his potential future actions? In that case, why do you pursue medicine in which you must preserve all life that comes to you, without being able to prognosticate their actions?

Quote:
I shot 83 BTW. 40-43, missed about 6, 5 foot or less putts for birdies. It poured down rain for the first 9 holes too.
Congratulations?

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ETA: I hate getting into these discussions.
Then why did you?

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It is pointless to try to convince you, and pointless for you to try to convince me. I could ask you, what if aliens came down from outer space and said, we came to Earth 1,000s of years ago and planted the idea of a man named Jesus just to see what would become of that idea... You would still try to rationalize your beliefs, and tell those aliens they must be lying because you have faith that Jesus existed and was magical somehow.
That is why I have the divinely inpsired scripture, so I won't be deceived.
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Old 03-31-2012, 16:59   #269
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Your analogy is that of a homocide bomber, one who takes life. We are talking about preserving life.

I am only bolding this to make it easy to read. The sucicide bomber does so with the belief that this life is only a way to get to the afterlife. His belief is as strong or stronger than yours. My question is how can you say your belief is more correct than his?

So, you would allow a child to drown because he has olive skin which may or may not make him Muslim out of fear of his potential future actions? In that case, why do you pursue medicine in which you must preserve all life that comes to you, without being able to prognosticate their actions?

I have already said I would jump in and save whoever it was that is drowning. I do not think my opinions or beliefs are more correct than anyone elses, therefore they have an equal right to live as I do.


Congratulations?

Thanks. Not too great, but not too terrible.


Then why did you?

I think it'd be rude at this point to ignore what you are saying directly towards me.

That is why I have the divinely inpsired scripture, so I won't be deceived.
What makes your divinely inspired scripture any more accurate than an Islamic or Jewish divinely inspired scripture?How can you be so sure that you are right when the majority of the people on this planet believe something that contradicts your beliefs? Why is your religion right when others must be wrong even though they have the exact same level of belief and faith that you do?
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Old 03-31-2012, 17:07   #270
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Originally Posted by jbotstein1 View Post
What makes your divinely inspired scripture any more accurate than an Islamic or Jewish divinely inspired scripture?How can you be so sure that you are right when the majority of the people on this planet believe something that contradicts your beliefs? Why is your religion right when others must be wrong even though they have the exact same level of belief and faith that you do?
Because these divinely inspired scriptures have been proven accurate time and time again through historical records and archeology. Morever, it is the only text that offers salvation and love to a dying world. Of all the other world's religions, why would not a person seeking communion and a loving relationship with their creator, not choose it?
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Old 03-31-2012, 17:24   #271
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
It is a great analogy. Either way, you are attempting to preserve a life.
Actually it is a very weak analogy given that you cannot prove that there is any real risk to an "unsaved" person whereas the danger from drowning (in water) is demonstrably real.

Can you prove the fate of any unsaved person who has died?

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Old 03-31-2012, 17:27   #272
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Actually it is a very weak analogy given that you cannot prove that there is any real risk to an "unsaved" person whereas the danger from drowning (in water) is demonstrably real.

Can you prove the fate of any unsaved person who has died?

-ArtificialGrape
No, it is not weak. I am trying to point people to the Life Guard, you are trying to point them to the pond.
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Old 03-31-2012, 17:29   #273
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Originally Posted by jbotstein1 View Post
I shot 83 BTW. 40-43, missed about 6, 5 foot or less putts for birdies. It poured down rain for the first 9 holes too.
Is golf a credit course for medical school?
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Old 03-31-2012, 17:30   #274
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No, it is not weak. I am trying to point people to the Life Guard, you are trying to point them to the pond.
First you need to prove that there is a pond.
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Old 03-31-2012, 17:33   #275
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First you need to prove that there is a pond.
This world is the pond.
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Old 03-31-2012, 17:43   #276
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It's not a choice. I am not capable of choosing what I believe. I believe what seems most likely to be true. Even if I wanted a mythology to be true, I couldn't make myself believe it actually was. I think that is one difference between theists and atheists, and think that it causes a lot of confusion between the two.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Me either.I was a non believer,too . But one day I asked God to come into my life,and He did. I FELT His presence in my body,and woke up the next morning with a smile. Laugh all you wish ,but God has made himself known in my life,even childhood friends asked me what was different.To this day I can't adequately describe it. But I LOVE it.I am a changed human being. I have love.joy,peace,patience,kindness,goodness,faithfulness,gentleness, and self control (most of the time , LOL )Gal 5 :22.I wish I had begun studying the Bible 40 years ago.I do not have to rationalize or make myself believe anything. I now have a healthy relationship with God, all doubts are relieved because I have experienced something greater than any non believer can EVER explain or create doubt.

"I believe what seems most likely to be true."I wonder how many innocent men have been sentenced to death because of what a jury believed what was most likely true. GLTY............ DOC
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Old 03-31-2012, 18:21   #277
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This world is the pond.
Does that mean that I won I everybody is already in the pond?
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Old 03-31-2012, 22:36   #278
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...
"I believe what seems most likely to be true."I wonder how many innocent men have been sentenced to death because of what a jury believed what was most likely true. GLTY............ DOC
I'd bet less then those who were guilty. But that doesn't really apply in these U.S. as we have beyond a reasonable doubt.
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The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
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Old 04-01-2012, 00:21   #279
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Me either.I was a non believer,too .
Would you please explain in more detail what you mean when you say you were a non believer?
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Old 04-01-2012, 00:25   #280
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No, it is not weak. I am trying to point people to the Life Guard, you are trying to point them to the pond.
Have you ever spoken to anyone who has returned from the dead?
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