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Old 03-16-2012, 08:58   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
It is literally undefinable in a macro sense ... you know it!

What are you expecting as a response? A list of "right and wrong".

When I say "right and wrong", I mean "wrong" to deny/limit health care based on the patient's financial capability (and "right" vice versa).

Life isn't absolutes.
Right and wrong is undefinable according to you.

Yet you feel it should be legislated.

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Old 03-16-2012, 09:01   #202
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Health care ain't yard work.
What is the difference? It is a service that is performed by someone else that you want them to do for you.

Please explain the difference of being able to demand a price Person X (who spent at least 8 years in school and then a residency) works for and being able to demand a price that Person Y works for.

-Dana
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:06   #203
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The school security guard arrested her and took her to the ER?
When your a school employee (wife)....it's their rules and I was at work...not my call. We had a school district truck hit our car and guess what?....they are exempt and not liable...my insurance made the repair. Welcome to the new USA, Mike.

Last edited by mgs; 03-16-2012 at 09:10..
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:08   #204
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When your a school employee....it's their rules, Mike.
I thought she was a volunteer and that's why the insurance wouldn't cover her?

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Emergency Room = Peroxide, Liquid Bandage & BandAid for my wife' lacerated thumb (cutting onions at a fundraiser for Marching Band)....$795! WalMart = $10. That's what's wrong with Healthcare in the US. Because it happened at the school, she had to go to the ER but the school insurace does not cover volunteers.....my insurance and I paid the $100 deductible, Mike.

employee or volunteer?

What's really interesting here is you actually illustrated the issue very well: Your wife received $800 of healthcare for $100.

Actually, she probably received $10 worth of healthcare that cost $800 because you only had to pay $100. If you had to pay the full $800 (and everyone else also) it would cost closer to $10.

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Old 03-16-2012, 09:12   #205
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I had my gallbladder removed last year, a pretty simple operation today, and folks routinely go home the same day - I woke up in a recovery room about 50 minutes later, so maybe 40 minutes in the OR, and the final bill was ~$12,000. Yeah, it's a lot of money, but I would have botched it for sure had I tried to do it myself using the "Laparoscopy for Dummies" manual.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:12   #206
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What is the difference? It is a service that is performed by someone else that you want them to do for you.

Please explain the difference of being able to demand a price Person X (who spent at least 8 years in school and then a residency) works for and being able to demand a price that Person Y works for.

-Dana
Its the socialists deciding. They're smarter than everyone else. Dumb biomedical engineers shouldn't ask questions.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:13   #207
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I had my gallbladder removed last year, a pretty simple operation today, and folks routinely go home the same day - I woke up in a recovery room about 50 minutes later, so maybe 40 minutes in the OR, and the final bill was ~$12,000. Yeah, it's a lot of money, but I would have botched it for sure had I tried to do it myself using the "Laparoscopy for Dummies" manual.
Bill was $12,000.

What did the insurance actually pay?

What providers and facilities charge has zero correlation to what they actually get paid.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:15   #208
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I thought she was a volunteer and that's why the insurance wouldn't cover her?




employee or volunteer?

What's really interesting here is you actually illustrated the issue very well: Your wife received $800 of healthcare for $100.

Actually, she probably received $10 worth of healthcare that cost $800 because you only had to pay $100. If you had to pay the full $800 (and everyone else also) it would cost closer to $10.
Not working that day....volunteering. I pay $13,000 a year for insurance so others get free health care. That's the way it works, Mike.

Last edited by mgs; 03-16-2012 at 09:17..
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:16   #209
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Lets actually go through this and try to explain to the uneducated what is wrong.

This is BASIC economics.

There are supply and demand curves (in this instance I have made them linear for simplicity). How this works (I will be referencing the graph below).

There is a quantity of product that you are able to find sellers in a given market segment that will sell for. This is the RED LINE. At $0 they are willing to supply 0 units. At $100 per unit, they are willing to supply 100 units. Now you have the buyers side (Blue line). At $0 they want (are willing to buy) 100 units. At $100 they want 0 zero units. Where both are satisfied to the maximum extent that the market will allow is where the two lines cross. In this case it is at 50/50. That means the buyer will supply 50 unit at $50 each and the consumer will buy 50 units at $50 each.

What insurance does, is it artificially manipulates these two curves. Since the buyers have insurance, and only pay $20 per unit they want 80 units. The suppliers however will not supply 80 units at $20 each. So insurance kicks in and covers the difference between the supply and demand. Now that 80 units are demanded, the price goes up to $80.
So what has happened, is what was a $50 per unit item for 50 people (or $2500 total), becomes an $80 unit for 80 people (or $6400 total). Do you see how $3900 was just added in total cost by manipulating supply and demand? That $3900 is covered under “insurance” )which is just moving money around between people.

The Okie Corral

The way to reduce medical costs is direct pay.

Look at direct medical devices and drugs. When you go to you favorite store to buy Asprin, you can buy Bayer or a generic. Consumers decide if they want to pay the extra money for one over the other. If you go and buy a hearing aid (which is normally not covered under insurance) you can go from the $39 TV special to the $5000 full digital, beam-forming, noise cancelling devices. The $5000 units are profitable, but not the biggest sellers. If you got to chose any set you wanted for a $100 co-pay, no-one would take a $500 set of hearing aids; everyone would chose the $5000 set.

Prices for medical devices are no set by supply and demand. They are set by what is reimbursed. If a device cannot be sold for a decent margin on the reimbursed price, the companies don’t make it (or negotiate a new reimbursed price).

OF course it is easier to scream how you are getting ripped off instead of seeing how artificial demand increases price.

-Dana
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:20   #210
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..Life isn't absolutes.
Really?
You believe this?

No absolutes?
What if the pharmaceutical companies applied that attitude to development and testing of new drugs?

What if the manufacturer of medical diagnostic or surgical equipment applied the attitude of "there are no absolutes" to their R&D?


What if you need life-saving medical treatment and the doctor's attitude is "there are no absolutes here... I can administer whatever treatment I prefer based on nothing more than my feelings. In fact, I don't feel like attending to this now, the weather is great for golf, so I'll take care of this guy tomorrow".


I would suggest that you are quite wrong here... life is made of absolutes.
If you are really paying attention you can see that everywhere you look, every moment of the day there are absolutes.
You seem to be saying that you have a right, an absolute right to medical treatment, on your terms.


Respectfully I gotta ask... are you perhaps very young?
Like maybe 19 or 20?
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:27   #211
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Socialism ... popular refrain. Laughable.

You folks like to live in some sort of fantasy ideologue world. Everything is black and white. It is the same small, yet vocal group ironically ... that likes to pontificate in absolutes and Constitutional theory as if it were 1787. Year after year.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:30   #212
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No absolutes...
Try to administer full anesthesia to a patient with no absolute principals of anatomy, physiology, and pharmacology. Get back to us on the outcome, OK?
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:34   #213
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No absolutes...
Try to administer full anesthesia to a patient with no absolute principals of anatomy, physiology, and pharmacology. Get back to us on the outcome, OK?
Please. There is nothing to get back to you. Stop with the pedantic cases. Like I said before ... we are talking macro-level. Do you really not understand what I meant by using that phrase? If so, forget the word. It is largely irrelevant.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:37   #214
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Please. There is nothing to get back to you. Stop with the pedantic cases. Like I said before ... we are talking macro-level. Do you really not understand what I meant by using that phrase? If so, forget the word. It is largely irrelevant.
No, I do not understand what you mean.
I suspect however that you really do not have a precise meaning, that your use of that phrase is only an attempt to make your case by obfuscation.

Am I wrong?
If so please explain.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:38   #215
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Right and wrong is undefinable according to you.

Yet you feel it should be legislated.

I defined it at the level that I meant ... and you dang well know it. Read it again.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:39   #216
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Its the socialists deciding. They're smarter than everyone else. Dumb biomedical engineers shouldn't ask questions.
There are plenty of highly educated and intelligent people that can't get over the strict fantasy ideologies that have infected this country over last decade or so.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:40   #217
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Socialism ... popular refrain. Laughable.

You folks like to live in some sort of fantasy ideologue world. Everything is black and white. It is the same small, yet vocal group ironically ... that likes to pontificate in absolutes and Constitutional theory as if it were 1787. Year after year.
Year after year, because always year after year there are people who will say "I don't have what you have, and I feel that I deserve anything you have, so I want to use government to take it from you (by force) and give to me".

Year after year...
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:40   #218
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We can all agree the medical system is broken, regardless of which side you stand on. The question that I haven't heard answered is how do we fix it.

Reminds me of Congress, "fix the budget", ok we will once we decide which side is right and which is wrong. In the mean time we're all left pissing in the wind.
I dont know if it can be fixed at this point. I mean what with romney care being co-opted as barry soetoro care (aka: obamacare thanks to our media); however, a great change in course towards fixing it would be to get the insurance companies out of policy mandating. For instance, it was the insurance companies that wrote romney-care for Mass, and then they had romney take the credit for it. As well, with a few socialist modifications due to centralized government streamlining it towards a global plan, it was again the insurance companies that wrote obama-care.

If you get the insurance companies OUT OF WRITING POLICY (aka: HUGE conflict of interest!) and simply providing the insurance to customers, then you begin to bring in competition. In the mean time, a stop gap measure would be to institute a "deductible" for doctor office visits. It works in keeping cost lower for other insurance companies and customers, and it would work for health care.

I'm only 50 and I can remember not even calling an insurance company for going to the doctor. Back then you paid like $25 for the visit and you simply paid cash. If you didn't have $25, you told your doctor ahead of time paid it off after the next payday or two. Today, my "primary doctor" has a $71 cash fee when services are rendered. This price includes a basic check-up and most often addresses the reason for impromptu visits. It works great for both of us. My doctor is NOT on an insurance company's pay-roll.

My previous doctor's office fee for a patient's initial visit is $320, with follow-ups visits costing $200. The reason for this is that insurance companies refuse to pay more than 25% of the stated office visit fee, which means he makes $80 and $50 respectively; however, he is NOT allowed to lower his fee for cash paying customers due to guidelines, red-tape, and bureaucracies caused by insurance lobby groups all the way through our State capital and on up to DC.

The insurance companies write/wrote all the insurance policies including the illegal obama-care. Take them out of instituting policy and it goes back to a free-market, competitive service industry, which IMHO can only begin to be done if we stop demanding $0 co-pays to get a routine check-up.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:42   #219
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Oh, no. Don't do that.

Don't go blurring the lines between Constitutionally-authorized powers, Constitutionally-mandated responsibilities, local government and community functions.

Don't do that. It only discredits you more.
I will do that. Because it isn't 1787 and they are largely the same .... government functions provided to the people via their tax dollars.

Sorry. Do you believe in the Bill of Rights? Because they were created after the ratification of the Constitution. GASP ... which means it changed!!! OMG!!! How could that have happened? Is it possible that we decided to make the Constitution better after we evolved as a society and nation? Hmmm.

I have an idea .... lets go back to slavery and women w/o the right to vote. That is what you all want by strict original Constitutional adherence ... right?

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Old 03-16-2012, 09:46   #220
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Insurance companies practicing medicine are the biggest problem.
+1 ... profit by anybody but medical providers is the biggest problem in health care.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:48   #221
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Year after year, because always year after year there are people who will say "I don't have what you have, and I feel that I deserve anything you have, so I want to use government to take it from you (by force) and give to me".

Year after year...
Daft. The sooner you drop the everything is the same concept to what is done with our tax dollars ... the sooner we can move on to a legitimate debate.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:52   #222
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Daft. The sooner you drop the everything is the same concept to what is done with our tax dollars ... the sooner we can move on to a legitimate debate.
Debate?
People pose questions to you based on your posts and you ignore them, only to continue telling us how you feel.


And this sentence construction..
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The sooner you drop the everything is the same concept to what is done with our tax dollars ... ...
..makes no sense at all.


In any case, I'm out, gotta catch a flight.
Take care, and stay safe.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:53   #223
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I will do that. Because it isn't 1787 and they are largely the same .... government functions provided to the people via their tax dollars.

Sorry. Do you believe in the Bill of Rights? Because they were created after the ratification of the Constitution. GASP ... which means it changed!!! OMG!!! How could that have happened? Is it possible that we decided to make the Constitution better after we evolved as a society and nation? Hmmm.

I have an idea .... lets go back to slavery and women w/o the right to vote. That is what you all want by strict original Constitutional adherence ... right?
I have no problem with women not being able to vote and machines do the work of slaves now without the hassle ..... but aside from that what else in the contitution would you like to make "better"?

ETA - wait are you saying that the use of our tax dollars is the same today as it was in 1787 ???
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:55   #224
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I will do that. Because it isn't 1787 and they are largely the same .... government functions provided to the people via their tax dollars.

Sorry. Do you believe in the Bill of Rights? Because they were created after the ratification of the Constitution. GASP ... which means it changed!!! OMG!!! How could that have happened? Is it possible that we decided to make the Constitution better after we evolved as a society and nation? Hmmm.

I have an idea .... lets go back to slavery and women w/o the right to vote. That is what you all want by strict original Constitutional adherence ... right?
The Constitution primarily concerned each individual state's government rights while still creating a centralized form of government, which UNITED all the states in common with respect to trade, common reciprocity of most affairs, and protection of one another from foreign attack(s); however, the Bill of Rights had nothing to do with the new federal government's or individual States' rights, but rather had/HAS EVERYTHING to do with each individual American citizens' right to not be unfairly treated by either their own State government or the newly formed centralized government, which this centralized government entity came to be known as the united States of America.

You're purposely mixing "apples and potatoes" (e.g., your not even close!) in trying to augment your agenda. With all due respect, you either need to be more honest, or you need to study this nation's true history before making your ignorance, concerning this nation's birth as well as its Constitution and Bill of Rights, so obvious on the internet.
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Old 03-16-2012, 10:10   #225
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What is the difference? It is a service that is performed by someone else that you want them to do for you.

Please explain the difference of being able to demand a price Person X (who spent at least 8 years in school and then a residency) works for and being able to demand a price that Person Y works for.

-Dana
But if you look at "reasonable cost" then what I originally posted would show that the fees were outrageous. We are not talking about great skill being needed etc. All that was done was squirt the eye with a quart or so of saline solution and use a little rubber device to pull the lens off. Anyone's mom could have done that.
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