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Old 03-11-2012, 08:32   #1
robert91922
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212gr cast Target bullets

Tried twice, but no answer from Beartooth Bullets company, obviously they don't sell outside of USA.
Luckily, in neighbor Italy a Target Bullets company makes something I hope will do the job. I bought 212 gr 10mm cast bullets and loaded a batch of N105 from 10.3gr to 11.6gr, OAL from 1.266 to 1.268, CCI 300 LP primers, Starline brass 1x shot. Now I'm barely waiting to go to the range and chrono them. They are compressed loads but I squeezed this powder already in XTP 200 loads and had no problems.
I got IGB barrel w. "Plasma Coating" inside for shooting cast bullets so I don't expect some lead fouling issues. Range/chrono report to follow within few days.

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Old 03-11-2012, 09:54   #2
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Hey that sounds great Robert! I will be looking forward to the range report!
Good luck and be safe!
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Old 03-11-2012, 13:17   #3
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Good deal Robert.

I noticed that you mark your COLs in inches. I thought only us Yanks still use the Imperial system of measurements.

Are they regular cast bullets or are they hardcast? The profile looks like they should feed well.

Last edited by Taterhead; 03-11-2012 at 14:22.. Reason: Typo
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Old 03-11-2012, 13:57   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
Good deal Robert.

I noticed that you mark your COLs in inches. I thought only us Yanks still use the Imperial system of measurements.

Are they regular case bullets or are they hardcast? The profile looks like they should feed well.
My caliper is switchable from metric to inches. When I load 9mm I use metric COL data and for 10mm auto I switch to inches. Probably it's because I started loading 10mm auto w. reading this forum (beside manuals) and it's easier to use numbers directly than converting and less space for errors ...and weighing always in grains, it's easier from the same reason.

Hmm...I don't know what's difference between "regular case" and "hardcast" bullets. Please explain.

P.S.: beside in USA inches/pounds still use in United Kingdom and in Australia I think so. So you Yanks are not alone, don't worry.
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Old 03-11-2012, 14:20   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert91922 View Post
My caliper is switchable from metric to inches. When I load 9mm I use metric COL data and for 10mm auto I switch to inches. Probably it's because I started loading 10mm auto w. reading this forum (beside manuals) and it's easier to use numbers directly than converting and less space for errors ...and weighing always in grains, it's easier from the same reason.

Hmm...I don't know what's difference between "regular case" and "hardcast" bullets. Please explain.
I like that. Less conversions, less potential for errors.

Whoops. A bit of a typo. I have no idea what a "case" lead bullet is either. Interesting coincidence, I ran accross this video yesterday. I may point this to newbies when they are looking for differences between soft cast bullets and hardcast:


Last edited by Taterhead; 03-11-2012 at 14:22.. Reason: Bad link
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Old 03-11-2012, 14:58   #6
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I'm anxious to see the range report also.
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Old 03-11-2012, 15:10   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
I may point this to newbies when they are looking for differences between soft cast bullets and hardcast:
One addition and clarification to what was said in the video: the lead bullet loads shown in most of the big name bullet company reloading manuals (speer, Hornady, etc) are for soft lead bullets; these are swaged, not cast, and are usually limited to low velocity. That is because these companies don't sell hard cast bullets. Most commercial cast bullets are hard cast; the common commercial casting alloy creates pretty hard bullets.

People casting their own bullets more often use wheel weight alloy, where the term hard cast can refer to heat treated wheel weight alloy, which isn't quite as hard, or as brittle, as the commercial stuff, or even air cooled wheel weights, which are usually 10-12 BHN, and are harder than jacketed bullets but still soft enough to expand to some degree.
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Old 03-14-2012, 14:25   #8
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Range report

Been there, done it. Glock 20, IGB full supported 4.5", DPM 3-spring system
Temp: 15C (59F)

Bullets: Target 212gr hardcast (HB/BHN 23)
http://www.targetbullets.it/hard-cas...ga_709223.html
Primers: CCI 300 LP
Powder: Vihtavuori N105
brass: Starline, Winchester, shot 1x

load: 10.3gr
1164
1156
1140
1149
av. 1152 es 23.91 sd 10.19

load: 10.6gr
1163
1158
1157
1157
av. 1159 es 5.90 sd 2.82

load: 10.9gr
1168
1154
1162
1150
av.1159 es 18.11 sd 8.06

load: 11.2gr
1169
1182
1171
1158
av. 1170 es 23.88 sd 9.79

load: 11.4gr
1172
1189
1176
1183
av.1180 es 16.59 sd 7.48

load: 11.6gr
1179
1187
1187
1179
1183
av.1183 es 8.57 sd 4.00

I was hoping to touch 1200 mark but this is it.
No keyholing, these Target bullets seem to be really hardcast (HB/BHN 23), hard enough to get stabilized even at 1187 fps in classic rifling barrel. No lead fouling, only a little bit more dirty than w. plated or jacketed bullets.
At 1180 fps primers started to flatten but nothing horrible yet (pics attached). I'm gonna repeat the same batch w. 350 magnum primers cause I suspect some N105 comes out unburnt. For some more safety I will sacrifice new brass.

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/...t_primers1.jpg

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/...t_primers2.jpg
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Old 03-14-2012, 20:57   #9
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Robert, The results look great! Thanks for the great report!
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Old 03-14-2012, 22:03   #10
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Good report Robert.

Nice consistent velocities. Extreme spreads are reasonably tight.

I have a question about that first photo. That middle right case, is there a little gas leakage from that primer? It kind of looks like it, but that could just be the photograph. Those primers are getting a touch flat.

I opened the link to the Target bullets page, but I don't read Italian very well.
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Old 03-15-2012, 00:38   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
Good report Robert.

Nice consistent velocities. Extreme spreads are reasonably tight.

I have a question about that first photo. That middle right case, is there a little gas leakage from that primer? It kind of looks like it, but that could just be the photograph. Those primers are getting a touch flat.

I opened the link to the Target bullets page, but I don't read Italian very well.
Thanks. I expect even more consistency w. magnum primers like it was w. N105 / XTP200. For better comparison will do the same powder charges.
About possible gas leakage: I will check brass again but would probably see that on the range already when checking primers after each shot.

EDIT: No gas leakage, checked again.
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Old 03-25-2012, 13:57   #12
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I'm gonna correct some mistakes

I will have to repeat this 212gr hardcast testing from the beginning because between loading first batch (CCI 300 LP) and second batch (CCI 350LP) I calibrated my digital scale with 50.00 grams weigh. Difference was 0.02 grams so all first batch loads had 0.3 grains more powder than second one

Furthermore, at first batch I used once shot brass and at second one it was new brass - I guess it influenced a bit as well. Shortly, "same" loads w. magnum primers were slower than those w. standard LP primers. Messed it all !

This sunny sunday afternoon I spent 3 hours in basement loading again, both type primers in the same batch, so all CCI 300 and CCI 350 rounds now got the same amount of powder in each&every 0.2gr step. Starting load is 11.0 gr N105, raised up to 12.0 gr. Brass is all virgin new Starline - not resized. No need for resizing new Starline brass said Mudrush (may rest in peace). Weighed and loaded slowly and carefully. Hope this time I will get some relevant, more reasonable speeds.
And of course, all 12 x 4 rounds have to be shot/tested the same day.
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:37   #13
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Interesting report Robert, nice video Tater, Hickock is a favorite.
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Old 03-28-2012, 15:00   #14
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Range Report: CCI 300 vs CCI 350

Equipment/conditions:
- Glock 20
- IGB custom barrel 4.6" with full supported chamber
- primers: CCI 300 LP vs CCI 350 LP Magnum
- recoil spring: DPM MS 3-spring system for Glock 20/21
- powder: Vihtavuori N105
- bullets: Target 212gr hardcast - 23 BNH
- brass: Starline (new)
- temperature: 68 oF (20 oC)
- distance from 1st Chrony screen: 3m (approx. 10 feet)
- distance from target: 31m (34 yards) - had to move chrony and myself to the shadow

These bullets are fairly accurate in IGB barrel (classic rifling), POI was much higher than w. 180gr plated, had to low down sights after first 2 strings:
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/...get_31m_LQ.jpg


11.0 gr OAL 1.261

CCI 300: 1156, 1141, 1128, ERR, av 1141 es 28.85 sd 14.00
CCI 350: 1148, 1134, 1134, 1149 av 1141 es 15.51 sd 8.36


11.2 gr OAL 1.262

CCI 300: 1164, 1155, 1156, 1156 av 1158 es 8.78 sd 4.12
CCI 350: 1145, 1138, 1142, 1144 av 1141 es 12.56 sd 5.47


11.4 gr OAL 1.264

CCI 300: 1168, 1167, 1163, 1164 av 1166 es 4.82 sd 2.23
CCI 350: 1138, 1154, 1141, 1135 av 1142 es 19,49 sd 8.36


11.6 gr OAL 1.266

CCI 300: 1166, 1145, 1152, 1161 av 1156 es 15.68 sd 6.78
CCI 350: 1155, 1148, 1162, 1161 av 1156 es 14.44 sd 6.40


11.8gr OAL 1.268

CCI 300: 1165, 1172, 1168, 1156 av 1165 es 15.68 sd 6.78
CCI 350: 1171, 1160, 1159, 1155 av 1161 es 15.54 sd 6.85


12.0gr OAL 1.269

CCI 300: 1180, 1181, 1164, 1172 av 1174 es 17.51 sd 7.93
CCI 350: 1175, 1147, 1185, 1174 av 1170 es 38.33 sd 16.27


I expected CCI350 loads to be faster but turned out they were the same as CCI350. Seems like this combination of bullet and powder doesn't care much - that's interesting. Primers: flattened, but IMO could safely go to 12.4 gr.
Barrel was very dirty as always is when shooting hardcast, a lot of smoke in the air and powder residue in the barrel.
Will try 12.2 and 12.4 load as well, maybe later.
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Old 04-06-2012, 02:26   #15
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212 gr hardcast - final test

Loaded more: N105 - 12.2gr, 12.4gr and 12.6 gr. This time w. CCI 300 primers only because no difference vs CCI 350 in previous test.

Here we go:

12.2gr: 1201, 1173, 1169, 1168, 1181 ~ av. 1178 ~ es 33.28, sd 13.63

12.4gr: 1176, 1172, 1178, 1183, 1181 ~ av. 1178 ~ es 10.43, sd 4.24

12.6 gr: 1184, 1187, 1201, 1186, 1186 ~ av. 1186 ~ es 25.67, sd 9.32

Can't go higher w. this powder and bullet because there's not enough space for bullet left . The last batch 12.6gr was 1.270 long, at this COAL and wide truncated cone feeding reliability could be an issue. In these 3 batches powder was very squeezed, high compressed loads IMO, not to mention a lot of smoke and residue in the barrel.
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Old 04-06-2012, 06:51   #16
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Good report Robert.

I've always had an interest in N105 as I've read it's a good .44 Mag, powder too if I recall correctly, the coffee hasn't kicked in yet and I'm to old, feeble minded and lazy to look it up, maybe it's N110?

I'm happy getting 1131 fps from a 10mm 200 gr. WFNGC Beartooth bullet from my 4.25" 1911.

Using 8.2 grains of 800x with CCI-300's, new starline at 1.250", this is just slightly over Max book loads from the Hornaday 4th, 7th and the Hogdon specs for a 200 grain jacketed bullet.

As much as I don't like going over published loads, my load is mild considering what many other's on the forum have pushed their 200 gr./800x max combo which gives me some consolation, I may even back my load down a bit to get back within book max and still generate 1100 fps.

The 200 grain hard cast in the 1100 fps range is about as good as it get's for large wild animal protection from a 10mm with less then a 5" barrel in my opinion.

It's what I carry if the largest threat expected is Mt. Lion or Black bear, they tend to like the same habitat, a 200 XTP in the winter for when the bears are down, I'm sure penetration at that speed would be decent, if and when I need more a step up in platform and caliber is the course I take, rather then push the 10mm envelope any further.

If in Grizzly country, a 4" .44 Mag with a 260 grain WFNGC Hard cast at 1225 fps or a 280 grain at 1150 fps. I can still carry that on my hip fairly comfortably and anything more (highly recommended) then that requires another step up in platform and caliber.

Even though the .44 is preferred and used the 10mm 200 grain WFNGC at 1100 fps would be better then a sharp stick or my tree climbing abilities even for Grizz or Moose.

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Old 04-06-2012, 08:36   #17
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It's N110 to be one of the top powders for high energy 44 Rem Mag ammo. You and I have similar configuration for SD in woods. Beside Glock 20 fed w. 200gr XTPs I got 44 magnum revolver, Taurus 44CP w. 6.5 " barrel compensated, carry ammo for this wheelgun is Fiocchi JSP 240gr/1375fps. More info/picture here:
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1383870

I don't roll my own 44 ammo yet but next month will buy additional equipment for quick change caliber on Dillon XL650 from 10mm to 44 mag.
Stay safe, especially in puma & bear country
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Old 04-19-2012, 00:31   #18
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finally : touched 1250fps mark using 3N38 powder

Results w. Vihtavuori 3N38/212gr hardcast were very good IMHO so I posted them into sticky "Vihtavuori Powder Data":
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...1#post18864971

Beside my usual protecting equipment I was using LE riot helmet w. face shield as well. All went good, even primers flattened only to usual acceptable limits.
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Old 04-19-2012, 17:37   #19
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Originally Posted by robert91922 View Post
Results w. Vihtavuori 3N38/212gr hardcast were very good IMHO so I posted them into sticky "Vihtavuori Powder Data":
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...1#post18864971

Beside my usual protecting equipment I was using LE riot helmet w. face shield as well. All went good, even primers flattened only to usual acceptable limits.
Mama Mia Robert, those are some stout loads! Thanks a lot for posting the results, very helpful for those of us following behind.
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