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Old 03-05-2012, 19:58   #1
High Altitude
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9mm Hornady Critical Defense to the leg

So much for the 9mm being a pea shooter.....

http://www.ar-15.co/forums/showthrea...t=10451&page=4

Post #34

Could you even recover from something like this without a permanent limp?

Last edited by High Altitude; 03-05-2012 at 20:38..
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Old 03-05-2012, 20:13   #2
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Teehee :D .
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Old 03-05-2012, 20:54   #3
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More of a reminder that the CD bullet is not great at penetrating. That bone completely ripped the bullet apart.

As far as the limp deal, they may not limp much or at all. Surgeons are very good at putting the human body back to together. It will be painful and uncomfortable throughout everyday life but more than likely its still very functional.
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Old 03-05-2012, 23:25   #4
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That fragmented CD bullet is exactly an example of how a JHP should NOT perform.
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Old 03-06-2012, 00:31   #5
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Guess what folks: bullets pulled out of real human flesh, blood and bones rarely look picture-perfect like they do when they are pulled out of ballistic gel and other backyard BS ballistics "media".
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Old 03-06-2012, 00:32   #6
High Altitude
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Quote:
More of a reminder that the CD bullet is not great at penetrating. That bone completely ripped the bullet apart.
Quote:
That fragmented CD bullet is exactly an example of how a JHP should NOT perform.


I am guessing a bonded bullet would be better.

I think any service pistol bullet slamming into bone is going to deform with a good possibility of fragmenting.

Last edited by High Altitude; 03-06-2012 at 00:41..
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:02   #7
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Everybody ripping on the CD round needs to take a hard look at the strength of a femur.

The femur is the largest and toughest bone in the body. It's thick. Thighs are also juicy. lots of meat. The bullet shattered the femur, and likely damaged the femoral artery. Anything but a bonded round would fragment after hitting that spot IMO. Thats a hell of a wound.

This isn't a jug of water or Gel. Shooting a bone is not represented in any of the tests you see posted around this forum.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:18   #8
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You also need to keep in mind the bullet hit the bone during its weakest stage- fully expanded. It was basically a large frontal area of lead striking the bone, rather than a semi pointed, jacketed bullet. I think the bullet performed well.

But lets just say that a different bullet was used, and that the bullet stayed together, penetrated through the bone and exited the leg. How much more damage/hemmorage could this bullet do compared to the CD showed?

I think that the bullet shattering the bone, and fragmenting like it did produced much more damage than a bullet that would have stayed together and exited the leg.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:30   #9
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Those xrays convince me that Critical Defense ammo is what I will still carry in my 9mm.

I don't want ammo that will over penetrate and it did hit hard enough to break the femur.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:57   #10
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I use it in my 9mm Kurz
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:20   #11
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That smoked that guy. Thank god it wasn't two rounds!!!
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Old 03-06-2012, 08:37   #12
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Limp....maybe, maybe not?
Current pain.....through the roof! Ive heard that the femur is the most painful part of your body to break!
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Old 03-06-2012, 09:21   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FL Airedale View Post
Those xrays convince me that Critical Defense ammo is what I will still carry in my 9mm.

I don't want ammo that will over penetrate and it did hit hard enough to break the femur.
A good JHP won't overpenetrate just because it holds together. A round that fragments like that won't achieve good penetration at all.
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Old 03-06-2012, 09:22   #14
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Originally Posted by Glock19Fan View Post
You also need to keep in mind the bullet hit the bone during its weakest stage- fully expanded. It was basically a large frontal area of lead striking the bone, rather than a semi pointed, jacketed bullet. I think the bullet performed well.

But lets just say that a different bullet was used, and that the bullet stayed together, penetrated through the bone and exited the leg. How much more damage/hemmorage could this bullet do compared to the CD showed?

I think that the bullet shattering the bone, and fragmenting like it did produced much more damage than a bullet that would have stayed together and exited the leg.
Leg shots are extremely poor shot placement. But regardless, a bullet that had stayed together still would have broken the bone.

What if this shot had been to the chest and had hit a rib? It would have broken the rib but not penetrated enough to hit the heart or spine or anything else of importance.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 03-06-2012 at 09:24..
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:09   #15
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Its not that the bullet in question fragmented its that bullet in question completely disintegrated. I'm confident that several more mainstream LE ammo whether bonded or not would have fared better.
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:21   #16
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Nasty. Critical Defense isn't even supposed to be very good ammo.
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:50   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
Leg shots are extremely poor shot placement. But regardless, a bullet that had stayed together still would have broken the bone.

What if this shot had been to the chest and had hit a rib? It would have broken the rib but not penetrated enough to hit the heart or spine or anything else of importance.
Your missing the point. The sternum and ribs are far weaker than the femur, the largest and strongest bone in the body. Not to mention, the amount of muscle and fat above the bone in the leg would have caused this round to expand before hitting the femur, where as the ribs would have encountered a non expanded round.
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:53   #18
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Oh wow,

that was a nasty break!
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Old 03-06-2012, 13:41   #19
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Really if one shot could do that, think about what 8 would do!!! Who would only shoot once? I think it did a good job!!
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Old 03-06-2012, 14:32   #20
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that is crazy. not easy to break that bone.
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Old 03-06-2012, 14:52   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedNine View Post
Nasty. Critical Defense isn't even supposed to be very good ammo.
Why do you think that Critical Defense isn't good ammo? The only other people I hear saying it isn't any good, that its a gimmick, are the salespeople at a LGS that always push PDX1. Makes me wonder if they are getting incentives or kickbacks to push PDX1.
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Old 03-06-2012, 14:56   #22
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It's not that it's 'bad', it's just engineered to be a very shallow penetrator and not by way of extreme expansion either. It speaks volumes that Hornady released their duty-oriented version of the exact same bullet in only one weight, 20 grains heavier than the defense version.
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Old 03-06-2012, 14:58   #23
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Here's an interesting post I found on Glocktalk about Critical Defense.'

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthre...0#post18386890

Quote:
Guys I saw what a .380 could do to an actual body using Critical Defense Ammo. I didn't see the actual shooting but got to see the body afterwards. I would not want to be hit with it.
Of course I wouldn't want to be shot with anything, even the lowly .22.
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Old 03-06-2012, 15:14   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NG VI View Post
It's not that it's 'bad', it's just engineered to be a very shallow penetrator and not by way of extreme expansion either. It speaks volumes that Hornady released their duty-oriented version of the exact same bullet in only one weight, 20 grains heavier than the defense version.
Thats because law enforcement needs a round that can penetrate auto glass or other barriers and still have enough weight and energy to penetrate the body after passing through the barrier. That doesn't mean that the CD doesn't penetrate well enough.

Here's a test in which CD in 9mm penetrated a 1.75" board and 12.2" of 10% gelatin.
http://www.shootingillustrated.com/i...tical-defense/

Caliber Corner
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Old 03-06-2012, 15:39   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scubasteve23323 View Post
Thats because law enforcement needs a round that can penetrate auto glass or other barriers and still have enough weight and energy to penetrate the body after passing through the barrier. That doesn't mean that the CD doesn't penetrate well enough.
So are COP's the only people who carry guns likely to have to engage targets through an intermediate barrier?

Edit to add:
According to Steve Johnson, Hornady Marketing Communications Manager, the Critical Defense line of handgun ammunition:

"...is not designed to shoot through glass, is not designed to shoot through a car door, and is not designed to shoot through a wall. If you have to shoot through something like that in a personal defense situation you're probably going to jail."

-- NRA's American Guardian TV

Last edited by pisc1024; 03-06-2012 at 15:42..
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