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Old 03-04-2012, 16:40   #51
Warp
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Originally Posted by kensteele View Post
Since when it is crime to lie to police at a traffic stop? ............
ken: And often times the guy who lies because it is 'legal' ends up with more tickets, more fines, or more bracelets when that lie is detected, or even suspected.

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This does not answer my question in any way, shape, or form.

Do you intend to answer my question?
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Old 03-04-2012, 16:51   #52
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Not really UofM has that "ordinance" and since they are not preempted by state law you're pretty much screwed.
True, but I haven't heard of anyone being charged for merely walking through the campus via sidewalkor driving through on the street.
I would think it may be become an issue if a CPL holder was involved in some sort of incident and just happened to be armed.
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Old 03-04-2012, 16:52   #53
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Honesty is the best policy, I think.
GA does not have a duty to inform so I doubt I would volunteer the info on a traffic stop, but if asked I would honestly answer.
I'm in a unique position in that I carry on my military ID, which is an exemption GA has. I worry occasionally that if in a situation I may be dealing with a LEO who is not completely aware of said exemption. I figure it will all work out fine regardless. I try to avoid interactions with law enforcement as a rule.
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Old 03-04-2012, 16:53   #54
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ken: And often times the guy who lies because it is 'legal' ends up with more tickets, more fines, or more bracelets when that lie is detected, or even suspected.
Agreed. If you commit other crimes and other violations, write the citation and/or make the arrests. Not a problem.

When an officer catches you in a lie, he should take whatever action he determines necessary to satisfy his official investigation.

I do have a problem with arresting someone for saying they just came from school when in fact they just came from work. No one should be arrested for that and I disagree with any statute that permits an officer to arrest you for telling him you just came from school when he saw you come from work, absent of any other factors and specifically when you are required to tell OR failure to tell is considered a lie.

Not that I support the lie, not at all. But, I support your right to free speech and you right to remain silent. I really would prefer not to have an officer determine what is a lie or what is the truth and take action on that at the traffic stop.

My opinion.
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Old 03-04-2012, 16:56   #55
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True, but I haven't heard of anyone being charged for merely walking through the campus via sidewalkor driving through on the street.
I would think it may be become an issue if a CPL holder was involved in some sort of incident and just happened to be armed.
I might have been confused about this. I thought he said if you are walking on the university campus and you run into an officer who makes official contact, you are required by law to disclose your weapon to him. And, if you disclose your weapon you will be certainly arrested because having a weapon on the university campus is illegal. Did I get that right? Either you are guilty of carrying on the campus or you are guilty of failure to disclose....if caught.
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Old 03-04-2012, 16:57   #56
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I do have a problem with arresting someone for saying they just came from school when in fact they just came from work. No one should be arrested for that and I disagree with any statute that permits an officer to arrest you for telling him you just came from school when he saw you come from work, absent of any other factors and specifically when you are required to tell OR failure to tell is considered a lie.
I must have missed where this scenario was up for discussion, or how this was what you were referring to. Got a quote?
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Old 03-04-2012, 16:58   #57
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If I ask you if you are armed or have a weapon in the vehicle and you refuse to answer, you're not going to like what happens next. That sounds potentially threatening, and you will be dealt with accordingly.

If you lie to me about having a weapon on you or in your vehicle and I catch you, I'm going to charge you with every possible violation I can.

Lying or withholding information from an officer about a weapon on your person is a really stupid game.
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Old 03-04-2012, 17:03   #58
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I must have missed where this scenario was up for discussion, or how this was what you were referring to. Got a quote?
You didn't miss it. Ignore that statement, sorry.
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Old 03-04-2012, 17:09   #59
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If I ask you if you are armed or have a weapon in the vehicle and you refuse to answer, you're not going to like what happens next. That sounds potentially threatening, and you will be dealt with accordingly.

If you lie to me about having a weapon on you or in your vehicle and I catch you, I'm going to charge you with every possible violation I can.

Lying or withholding information from an officer about a weapon on your person is a really stupid game.
Agreed that would be silly to not tell an officer about a weapon on your person when he asks. Besides, in my state, the condition of my permit requires me to answer the officer truthfully when he asks about my permit or my weapon. Not a problem here.
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Old 03-04-2012, 18:03   #60
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Nothing to see there.

My goodness, you guys don't even know your rights.

Please don't post disorderly, obstructing statutes unless you support them to apply to anyone and everyone (including yourself) whenever the officer decides he doesn't like something. Instead post the lying statutes (the one I asked for) where the penalty is for telling the lying, not to impending, obstructing, violating, stopped, hindering, or resisting an official process.

When an officer asks "Where are you coming from?" he is not asking in an official capacity. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION TRUTHFUL ELSE GET ARRESTED FOR LYING. Just don't answer, like I said.

If your state requires you to appropriately respond about your weapon and your permit, you need to do so because there are laws that penalize you for doing so. If not required in your state, there is no lying statute that will snag you if you don't.

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Here the Obstructing without Violence Statute, FSS 843.02 is regularly used for instance when someone lies about their identity. For practical purposes offering some act without violence that obstructs the officer's ability to perform his duties is defined as a crime by this statute. I remain quite confident that someone who lies about not having a gun while having contact with the police in Florida risks arrest and prosecution. My position is that lying to the officer in Florida is not in and of itself a crime, but lying about something that effectively hinders the officer is a crime.
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Old 03-04-2012, 18:29   #61
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If ... you refuse to answer, you're not going to like what happens next. That sounds potentially threatening, and you will be dealt with accordingly. ... withholding information from an officer about a weapon on your person is a really stupid game.
Agreed. And by the same token, if you mistreat a citizen for refusing to answer your interrogation without his lawyer, you're not going to like what happens when your civil rights violation comes to trial. Posting on a public forum your intent to do this is a very stupid game indeed.
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Old 03-04-2012, 19:40   #62
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Here the Obstructing without Violence Statute, FSS 843.02 is regularly used for instance when someone lies about their identity. For practical purposes offering some act without violence that obstructs the officer's ability to perform his duties is defined as a crime by this statute. I remain quite confident that someone who lies about not having a gun while having contact with the police in Florida risks arrest and prosecution. My position is that lying to the officer in Florida is not in and of itself a crime, but lying about something that effectively hinders the officer is a crime.
Agreed. In many states, lying about your identify is a crime. I can agree with that. Not violent in any way but lying about who you are when the polices asks you to identify yourself according to the law probably hinders the police in their official duties. So yes, we can agree on that. Good law.
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Old 03-04-2012, 20:06   #63
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Ok, just want to throw this out there... We're on the same side.

I'm not LE, I carry to help protect me and mine. I like getting home alive at the end of the day.

The police have the unfortunate task of constant exposure to the worst scum, while maintaining a polite, professional disposition with the rest of us. All while trying to ensure they get home alive at the end of the day.

If you get stopped, be honest, be polite. You may get the occasional D-bag, it happens. But for the most part, not being a prick will make everybody's day easier.
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Old 03-04-2012, 20:12   #64
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If I ask you if you are armed or have a weapon in the vehicle and you refuse to answer, you're not going to like what happens next. That sounds potentially threatening, and you will be dealt with accordingly.

If you lie to me about having a weapon on you or in your vehicle and I catch you, I'm going to charge you with every possible violation I can.

Lying or withholding information from an officer about a weapon on your person is a really stupid game.
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Agreed. And by the same token, if you mistreat a citizen for refusing to answer your interrogation without his lawyer, you're not going to like what happens when your civil rights violation comes to trial. Posting on a public forum your intent to do this is a very stupid game indeed.
My read-between-the-lines fu is not as good as yours, I guess. Exactly what did freeride88 post that shows intent to violate the civil rights of anyone? Please be specific - for the internet record.

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Old 03-04-2012, 20:18   #65
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In Texas, if a police officer asks you, you answer honestly. Yes or no. Not hard at all.


Actually, in Texas your are REQUIRED by law to promptly notify an officer at a traffic stop that you are a holder of concealed carry permit.

For the life of me, I don't understand some folks suspicion or downright dislike of police officers. I think they deserve our respect for doing a difficult job......
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Old 03-04-2012, 20:29   #66
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In Texas, if a police officer asks you, you answer honestly. Yes or no. Not hard at all.
The very fact the cop asked if a ) you were armed AND b) if you were a CCW holder would lead me to believe that if you were a CCW holder they would view you with an eye of being a good guy.

You see if they asked only if you were armed, I'd suspect they might arrest you for illegal possession, but adding the 'are you a CCW holder' would tend to mean are you packing legally.

Here in Texas if a cop asked for your ID, you HAVE to show your CHL license when you show them your ID. And yes, if a cop asked if I was a CHL holder and packing I'd tell them.

Here in Texas CHL holders are not deemed suspected criminals-to-be by 99.999 percent of the police (a few new transplants from NJ or NYC might still not have the word but most do.) And this is why I'm quite happy living in Texas (but then I'm a natural born Texican.)

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Old 03-04-2012, 20:43   #67
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i saw an interview with a Local police chief here in WI(i think it was Appleton,WI)....anyways he said when his officers make a traffic stop the first question they ask is 'are you a CCW holder and are you armed'

if the reason i am talking with the police has nothing to do with my CCW (IE---speeding) i dont think they have any rights to ask me that question....and i dont have to answer either

how do you handle it? and would you feel compelled to answer such a question?

a policeman is just a person...a person who may be anti-gun.....a person who may play games with you over the issue....i feel its none of his business if it doesnt pertain to whatever the reason he's talking to me for.
Maybe he (or she) is looking for a shooting buddy.

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Old 03-04-2012, 20:43   #68
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i as a rule always give my CCW licence if stopped, it has my DL# on it as well, mostly so he isn't surprised by the fact i'm carrying...i usually as a rule do what ever possible to make sure the LEO is as comfortable as possible in our interaction..over kill maybe but i usually get treated better if im up front...
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Old 03-04-2012, 20:53   #69
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Florida you don't have to inform and I wouldn't unless asked. Just the facts mam. Once you inform its not only about the traffic stop now a gun is in the mix. I just stick to the facts. if asked I would answer.
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Old 03-04-2012, 21:12   #70
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I've only had one contact with the Police in the 17 yrs I've had my permit - last month. I was out on one of my walks, and I usually pickup cans on my walks, or out of the dumpsters I pass. At one of the dumpsters, twp bicycle cops approached me and started talking to me about what I was doing, why, etc. I thought they were just curious until they told me I was violating a city ordinance by taking cans out of dumpsters. (I thought I was recycling!) When they finally asked for my DL, I realized that I was probably going to get a citation, and at that time informed them that I was armed and had a CCW. (CCW not necessary in AZ if you're over 21 and have a clean record). When I told them, they both got very irate that I hadn't immediatley informed them when they first approached me and were telling me that I HAVE to inform them on first contact . . . (AZ law says to inform if asked - they hadn't asked me). Until they asked for my ID, I honestly thought they were just passing the time of day - I had NO idea that picking up cans from dumpsters was against the law or I would not have been doing it.
The thought of trying to correct their mistaken interpretation of the law crossed my mind, but I figured that would probably not help the situation so I kept my thoughts to myself. They never asked to see the weapon or took it from me, but continued to "lecture" me the rest of the time they were writing the citation.
When they left, I had mixed feelings. Yes, I had (unknowingly) been doing something wrong and realized that I deserved the (warning) citation I got. However, AZ has had CCW in effect since 1994, and neither one of these officers were old enough to have been serving that long. But why would they be telling me the incorrect version of the law? AZ says that if asked by the LEO, I must inform him I am armed, and when they asked for my DL, I did tell them. But, AFAIK, AZ does not require me to inform any LEO upon first contact.
(ARS 13-3112. Concealed weapons; qualification; application; permit to carry; civil penalty; report; applicability

A. The department of public safety shall issue a permit to carry a concealed weapon to a person who is qualified under this section. The person shall carry the permit at all times when the person is in actual possession of the concealed weapon and is required by any other law to carry the permit. If the person is in actual possession of the concealed weapon and is required by any other law to carry the permit, the person shall present the permit for inspection to any law enforcement officer on request)
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Old 03-04-2012, 21:12   #71
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In MO they know if they run the plates and you are the owner of the car. In MO one is not required to reveal that you have a CCW - not the case in all states. Some offer the info thinking they are starting off on the right foot. I've done that once and the Outcome was somewhat positive. I've never been stopped for other than speeding and the CCW is not really relevant IMHO. No LEO has asked since and i am always carrying. I'd give minimum info politely if I were asked. I dare say that I'm NOT in the high profile group - 50s, professional, decent car, well dressed if I'm in work clothes. We're all human and I'm not looking for an anti carry LEO (person) to take me to task or someone coming off a bad experience to spill it on me. Keep it legal. Keep it minimal and to the point. Respond to questions with care and reserve. My two bits.
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Old 03-04-2012, 23:00   #72
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Don't talk to police.
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Old 03-04-2012, 23:19   #73
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I've only had one contact with the Police in the 17 yrs I've had my permit - last month. I was out on one of my walks, and I usually pickup cans on my walks, or out of the dumpsters I pass. At one of the dumpsters, twp bicycle cops approached me and started talking to me about what I was doing, why, etc. I thought they were just curious until they told me I was violating a city ordinance by taking cans out of dumpsters. (I thought I was recycling!) When they finally asked for my DL, I realized that I was probably going to get a citation, and at that time informed them that I was armed and had a CCW. (CCW not necessary in AZ if you're over 21 and have a clean record). When I told them, they both got very irate that I hadn't immediatley informed them when they first approached me and were telling me that I HAVE to inform them on first contact . . . (AZ law says to inform if asked - they hadn't asked me). Until they asked for my ID, I honestly thought they were just passing the time of day - I had NO idea that picking up cans from dumpsters was against the law or I would not have been doing it.
The thought of trying to correct their mistaken interpretation of the law crossed my mind, but I figured that would probably not help the situation so I kept my thoughts to myself. They never asked to see the weapon or took it from me, but continued to "lecture" me the rest of the time they were writing the citation.
When they left, I had mixed feelings. Yes, I had (unknowingly) been doing something wrong and realized that I deserved the (warning) citation I got. However, AZ has had CCW in effect since 1994, and neither one of these officers were old enough to have been serving that long. But why would they be telling me the incorrect version of the law? AZ says that if asked by the LEO, I must inform him I am armed, and when they asked for my DL, I did tell them. But, AFAIK, AZ does not require me to inform any LEO upon first contact.
(ARS 13-3112. Concealed weapons; qualification; application; permit to carry; civil penalty; report; applicability

A. The department of public safety shall issue a permit to carry a concealed weapon to a person who is qualified under this section. The person shall carry the permit at all times when the person is in actual possession of the concealed weapon and is required by any other law to carry the permit. If the person is in actual possession of the concealed weapon and is required by any other law to carry the permit, the person shall present the permit for inspection to any law enforcement officer on request)
That's interesting. How about Constitutional carry, if an AZ law-abiding citizen is legally carrying concealed and does not have a permit, do they have to immediately notify LEO upon first contact else face santions? Did you ask them that? j/k I wouldn't have asked that either, you did right the way you handled it IMO.

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Old 03-04-2012, 23:48   #74
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Don't talk to police.
Typical.

On the AZ issue no you do not have to inform unless asked whether you carry under a ccw or constitutionally.

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Old 03-05-2012, 00:23   #75
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I don't tell and I have not been asked but look at the state laws and see what it says. If you say no he could charge you with lying to a police officer.
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