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Old 02-26-2012, 19:57   #76
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What behavior would you report and why?
The belligerent and unprofessional attitude of the officer, according to the OP, the fact that he was ordered out of the car and then frisked. His weapon was removed. Just the general unprofessional behavior when there was no RAS... again, according to the OP.

Yes I know that one can be ordered out of the car, but there has to be a reason for this to take place. Can't say anything about the trunk search because the OP invited that by opening his trunk. He should have refused to do this just like he should have closed the windows and locked the car when he exited.

These complaints may not go farther than the call to his superior. But if this officer has this sort of attitude, you can bet it will happen again and if several more calls come in, his superior will hopefully see a pattern.
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Old 02-26-2012, 20:46   #77
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Why do people insist on borrowing trouble? Renew your tags, fix your broken tail lights, remove your illegal tint, and quit making excuses.
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Old 02-27-2012, 04:57   #78
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What behavior would you report and why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
The belligerent and unprofessional attitude of the officer, according to the OP, the fact that he was ordered out of the car and then frisked. His weapon was removed. Just the general unprofessional behavior when there was no RAS... again, according to the OP.

Yes I know that one can be ordered out of the car, but there has to be a reason for this to take place. Can't say anything about the trunk search because the OP invited that by opening his trunk. He should have refused to do this just like he should have closed the windows and locked the car when he exited.

These complaints may not go farther than the call to his superior. But if this officer has this sort of attitude, you can bet it will happen again and if several more calls come in, his superior will hopefully see a pattern.
Okay...
  • Belligerent behavior

  • General unprofessional attitude

  • Officer ordered him out of the car

  • Officer frisked him

  • Officer disarmed him
Anything else?

dwalker84, are you going to file a complaint?

Will you have your wife sign it also, as a witness?
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:58   #79
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Originally Posted by dwalker84 View Post
...
A Motorcycle officer got behind me and immediately threw on his lights.

... I did this as a courtesy, as I do every time - so the officer isn't surprised. ...
I got out of the car, with my hands at chest level, put my hands on the roof, spread my legs. ....]


I remain curious as to for how long the registration was expired. Rereading the original post, another question or three come to mind - any idea for how long the officer had been monitoring/watching you? You said he immediately threw on his lights - but any idea from where he came orwhere he first observed you? Should he have waited before he activated his lights?

How many other times have you been stopped?

Did the officer order you to put your hands on the roof and to spread your legs or did you do that on your own?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
The belligerent and unprofessional attitude of the officer, according to the OP, the fact that he was ordered out of the car and then frisked. His weapon was removed. Just the general unprofessional behavior when there was no RAS... again, according to the OP.

....
I am curious as to where we got to "belligerent?" Was he hostile or combative?

And at the risk of being repetitive, does the officer have any obligation to offer his reasonably articulated suspicion at the scene of a traffic stop and if he elects to not offer it at that point does that make the stop invalid or his performance unprofessional?
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:46   #80
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I remain curious as to for how long the registration was expired. Rereading the original post, another question or three come to mind - any idea for how long the officer had been monitoring/watching you? You said he immediately threw on his lights - but any idea from where he came orwhere he first observed you? Should he have waited before he activated his lights?

How many other times have you been stopped?
Good questions.
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Did the officer order you to put your hands on the roof and to spread your legs or did you do that on your own?
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Originally Posted by dwalker84 View Post
... he says "Okay!! Alright, get out of the car, right now!!" I never once made any movements that would have been construed as going for my gun, but this guy was on the aggressive from the start.

I got out of the car, with my hands at chest level, put my hands on the roof, spread my legs.
Looks like in the original post he initiated his actions.
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I am curious as to where we got to "belligerent?" Was he hostile or combative?
I believe "aggressive, aggravated and nervous" were the words dwalker84 used.
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And at the risk of being repetitive, does the officer have any obligation to offer his reasonably articulated suspicion at the scene of a traffic stop and if he elects to not offer it at that point does that make the stop invalid or his performance unprofessional?
More good questions.
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Old 02-27-2012, 16:10   #81
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I have a buddy that will cite you for every thing he can. I've seen 8 UTCs on one stop. Some cops are butts, noting but!
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Old 02-27-2012, 17:24   #82
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Random thoughts...Yes, the car could have been towed. Towing is *mandatory* for suspended driver's licenses, but the cops have no obligation to allow an unregistered vehicle on the road. Score that as a break for the OP.

The cop doesn't need a reason to order the driver (or the passenger) out of the car. That he believes it's the best course of action for his safety is good enough.

The frisk and disarm were proper. The cop needs an articuable reason that you're armed and dangerous. Armed is a given. Dangerous comes not only from a livid driver, but also from the environment, time of day and so on. Downtown/weekend/night time...we're there, even without considering a single thing about OP's behavior.

Search of the trunk: Nowhere in the post does the OP tell the searching officer to stop. We have: "Okay, wait, why are you going to search my car??"...Fine I pop it. Sorry, I'm not hearing you invoke your rights, and your actions can be read as a consent to entry. Score this one as a failure on the OP's part.

Being treated as a criminal: Nope. Not even close.

And the general loss of (fill in the blank) for all LE based on one episode. I'd suggest you re-examine things. Pretty shallow (fill in the blank) if this destroys a lifetime of observation and experience, especially given that there were just as many examples of "good" as "bad" cops present. You didn't get harmed in any way, it's possible that your anger amplifed the feedback loop, and most of your complaint centers around the cop's unquantifiable attitude. How much of this stems from the fact that your CCW didn't get you out of a ticket as it has before?
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Old 02-27-2012, 17:41   #83
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Random thoughts...Yes, the car could have been towed. Towing is *mandatory* for suspended driver's licenses, but the cops have no obligation to allow an unregistered vehicle on the road. Score that as a break for the OP.

The cop doesn't need a reason to order the driver (or the passenger) out of the car. That he believes it's the best course of action for his safety is good enough.

The frisk and disarm were proper. The cop needs an articuable reason that you're armed and dangerous. Armed is a given. Dangerous comes not only from a livid driver, but also from the environment, time of day and so on. Downtown/weekend/night time...we're there, even without considering a single thing about OP's behavior.

Search of the trunk: Nowhere in the post does the OP tell the searching officer to stop. We have: "Okay, wait, why are you going to search my car??"...Fine I pop it. Sorry, I'm not hearing you invoke your rights, and your actions can be read as a consent to entry. Score this one as a failure on the OP's part.

Being treated as a criminal: Nope. Not even close.

And the general loss of (fill in the blank) for all LE based on one episode. I'd suggest you re-examine things. Pretty shallow (fill in the blank) if this destroys a lifetime of observation and experience, especially given that there were just as many examples of "good" as "bad" cops present. You didn't get harmed in any way, it's possible that your anger amplifed the feedback loop, and most of your complaint centers around the cop's unquantifiable attitude. How much of this stems from the fact that your CCW didn't get you out of a ticket as it has before?
As always I enjoy reading your posts. very good insight.
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Old 02-27-2012, 18:55   #84
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So, out of the few times I've been pulled over carrying -

]
I stopped reading after this........
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Old 02-27-2012, 19:02   #85
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You're wrong.

ETA: Your advice is hardly applicable to anyone.
Ahh, a man of few words. TWO. "You're wrong."

Few words = nothing constructive to say.

You could have said something honest like:
"Of course you're correct, but I don't like the sound of it."
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:48   #86
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It's threads like this that convince me to maybe just keep it to myself that I am carrying if I ever get pulled over (not required in Minnesota)
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:34   #87
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So, out of the few times I've been pulled over carrying - I have always been treated very respectfully, infact, most of the times my CCW positively effected the stop, the majority of the times resulting with no ticket, and a friendly conversation.... Well tonight was different.

First off, my registration was expired; I deserved the ticket I received completely. I shouldn't have put off going to get my emissions done, but with my hectic work schedule and newborn I procrastinated. Either way, I deserved to be pulled over and ticketed, period.

That said...

My fiance and I we're out on our date night that we get maybe once every month. Her mother is kind enough to take the kids for us for free so we can atleast get 2-3 hours alone. We drove up to Gates pass to watch the city lights, then proceeded to town to get some coffee before heading back to the house.

I should have known better than to drive into downtown on a Saturday, oh well.

A Motorcycle officer got behind me and immediately threw on his lights. I pulled over and stopped within 10 seconds, and never removed my hands from the wheel. He approaches, says "Why were you and the passenger moving around and fidgeting???" My hands never left the wheel from the time he pulled behind me, and my Fiance had her hands in her lap the entire time. I said "We never moved officer?" I found this odd, his demeanor was aggressive from the get-go. "License and Registration." and the first thing out of my mouth is "Officer, just so you're aware I'm carrying a concealed weapon, here's my CCW permit." as I handed him my ID and CCW. He asked me where it was, and I said 1:00 Oclock, appendix carry. He looked at me like "Huh?" but I certainly wasn't going to point :p - I did this as a courtesy, as I do every time - so the officer isn't surprised. In AZ we have constitutional carry so I don't need a permit, nor did I need to make him aware of it out of respect. He gets on the radio and says something along the lines of "Yeah hes got a gun..."

Suddenly another officer pops up on the right side of the car which startled my fiance.


The first officer immediately got more aggravated and nervous, as if presenting my ccw was a threat. As I was looking through my paperwork for my insurance he says "Okay!! Alright, get out of the car, right now!!" I never once made any movements that would have been construed as going for my gun, but this guy was on the aggressive from the start.

I got out of the car, with my hands at chest level, put my hands on the roof, spread my legs. He frisked around my waist and unholstered my G17. He sees that I'm carrying a knife and says "Oh look! This guy is carrying TWO KNIVES!" In a tone like how DARE he carry two knives! How dare he carry a firearm! I have a SD knife, and a work knife that I use to open boxes on the job. I'm glad he didn't notice the extra magazines on my waste, for as much concern he had that I was going to injure him, he did an awful job frisking me, actually he never frisked me.. at all.

As I'm looking across the car, the other officer looks me in the eyes, with this kind of "I'm sorry." look and body language. He hadn't said anything the entire time - but seemed calm and collected the whole time.

The first officer told me to get back into the car - The 2nd officer started talking to us about what we should expect as far as court and the registration - he was VERY polite and respectful. Infact, I think if he wasn't there - this interaction would have been 20X worse. I wish I had the chance to thank him for treating me like a citizen and not a criminal.

So after the first officer ran my info, he comes back and asks to get in my trunk. At this point I'm livid, and humiliated, and start to think that hes going to try and start searching my car. I ask "Okay, wait, why are you going to search my car??" The 2nd officer explains that hes going to place my weapons in the trunk until they leave. Fine, I pop it. I get out, and goto the trunk. The first officer starts DIGGING through my trunk, looking under my baby stroller, shining his light around, SEARCHING! After about 40 seconds of searching and digging, He pulls out a camo hat from the service, puts my mag, knives, etc. Shows me my gun, that it's clear, and places it in the trunk and shuts it.

I get back in the car, he hands me the ticket, and I asked if his badge number was on the citation, he says yes and leaves.

I don't know who the second officer was, but I thank god he was there. I couldn't imagine how bad this stop would have been if he wasn't. I desperately wish I could have extended a thank you. I am so unbelievably upset right now - This whole interaction was absolutely unnecessary - I gave him no reason to act in this way and I'm so disappointed. I respect law enforcement, infact I look up to them - I have lost a great deal of trust of the police tonight. I would have thought living in one of the most gun friendly states in the US that this wouldn't happen. Bummer.



[Moderator Note - 02-26-2012 at 15:35: Please read post #48 before posting in this thread.]
Wait a minute, your title of this thread paints a very wide brush. You should use a smaller brush (to extend this metaphor) and say a Tucson policeman, not implicating the whole police force in Tucson. According to you, theto ther policeman was perfect in this instance. And the motorcycle cop was just an overbearing butt head who might need some breath freshener so to speak.

Last edited by Glockworks; 02-28-2012 at 03:36.. Reason: Fat fingered typos
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:49   #88
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It's threads like this that convince me to maybe just keep it to myself that I am carrying if I ever get pulled over (not required in Minnesota)
In Maine, you are NOT required to inform an officer that you are carrying during a traffic stop.

I was actually told the following when I asked a sherrif's deputy whether or not I should inform an officer during a traffic stop. He said: "From MY point of view, I want to know immediately if you are carrying, so yes, please inform me if you are carrying. From YOUR point of view, keep your mouth closed unless asked by the officer. If you get a 20 year old officer, all gung-ho, who just graduated from the police academy last month, you are liable to find yourself face down on the ground, in hand-cuffs, while he calms himself down."

I thanked him for his candid answer.
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Old 02-28-2012, 07:00   #89
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Wait a minute, your title of this thread paints a very wide brush. You should use a smaller brush (to extend this metaphor) and say a Tucson policeman, not implicating the whole police force in Tucson. According to you, theto ther policeman was perfect in this instance. And the motorcycle cop was just an overbearing butt head who might need some breath freshener so to speak.
Oh, the title is just the beginning...
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I have lost a great deal of trust of the police tonight.
One officer = all police...

Unfortunately, some people form that opinion after one bad contact, completely discounting all the positive encounters before.
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So, out of the few times I've been pulled over carrying - I have always been treated very respectfully, infact, most of the times my CCW positively effected the stop, the majority of the times resulting with no ticket, and a friendly conversation....
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Old 02-28-2012, 10:29   #90
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It's threads like this that convince me to maybe just keep it to myself that I am carrying if I ever get pulled over (not required in Minnesota)
I don't disagree with that, but.....how would you answer the typical cop's question, "Are there any weapons in the vehicle?"
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Old 02-28-2012, 10:39   #91
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I got out of the car, with my hands at chest level, put my hands on the roof, spread my legs. He frisked around my waist and unholstered my G17. He sees that I'm carrying a knife and says "Oh look! This guy is carrying TWO KNIVES!" In a tone like how DARE he carry two knives! How dare he carry a firearm! I have a SD knife, and a work knife that I use to open boxes on the job. I'm glad he didn't notice the extra magazines on my waste, for as much concern he had that I was going to injure him, he did an awful job frisking me, actually he never frisked me.. at all.
Your on a date, have a carry w/extra mags on your waist, 2 knives.....Huh, I always figured if I needed that much, could be a hell of a fight.

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Old 02-28-2012, 11:15   #92
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Your are on a date, have a carry w/extra mags on your waste, 2 knives.....Huh, I always figured if I needed that much, could be a hell of a fight.
sometimes dates can go bad
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Old 02-28-2012, 13:23   #93
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Nowhere in the post does the OP tell the searching officer to stop. We have: "Okay, wait, why are you going to search my car??"...Fine I pop it. Sorry, I'm not hearing you invoke your rights, and your actions can be read as a consent to entry. Score this one as a failure on the OP's part.
Does this:

Quote:
The 2nd officer explains that hes going to place my weapons in the trunk until they leave.
make any difference? Many on here have more legal expertise than me but it seems that his consent was to have his property placed in his trunk rather than to having his trunk searched. I wonder then if the search would have been legal. If popping the trunk release is consenting to a search, then is opening the door to a car also consenting to a search of the passenger compartment? How about answering the door at home? Do you have to verbally object to these searches as well?

I honestly haven't been in such situations, so I would appreciate knowing.
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Old 02-28-2012, 13:33   #94
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nobody on this site will back you up dwalker84,they are all higher in there place on these forums,They only go with the view of long time mebers and moderators.You came to the wrong place to vent!
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Old 02-28-2012, 14:16   #95
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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 02-28-2012, 15:00   #96
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nobody on this site will back you up dwalker84,they are all higher in there place on these forums,They only go with the view of long time mebers and moderators.You came to the wrong place to vent!
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The role of a true friend is often to tell you what you need to hear, not necessarily what you want to hear.
Haven't you been on the receiving end of a couple of those conversations from me, TBO?
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Old 02-28-2012, 15:19   #97
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Does this:



make any difference? Many on here have more legal expertise than me but it seems that his consent was to have his property placed in his trunk rather than to having his trunk searched. I wonder then if the search would have been legal. If popping the trunk release is consenting to a search, then is opening the door to a car also consenting to a search of the passenger compartment? How about answering the door at home? Do you have to verbally object to these searches as well?

I honestly haven't been in such situations, so I would appreciate knowing.

I would suggest the first few posts in this thread may be instructive http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=994145

I would try to paraphrase it but I suspect I would massacre the message and change the nuances so much as to be totally incorrect. Mr. Spade has done a great job of explaining some of these ideas. I will attempt this much - in the past the Supreme Court seems to have been very aware of safety issues for officers and seems to have given them a fairly wide latitude to do things to protect themselves that seem intrusive to citizens. And when some evidence of crime is discovered as a result of an officer doing something to enhance his safety, the Court has often allowed it to be entered into evidence.
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Old 02-28-2012, 15:21   #98
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Haven't you been on the receiving end of a couple of those conversations from me, TBO?
Yes Sir.
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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 03-01-2012, 06:27   #99
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Good questions....More good questions.

Thanks, but oddly still no answers.
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Old 03-01-2012, 06:59   #100
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I remain curious as to for how long the registration was expired. Rereading the original post, another question or three come to mind - any idea for how long the officer had been monitoring/watching you? You said he immediately threw on his lights - but any idea from where he came orwhere he first observed you? Should he have waited before he activated his lights?
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Good questions....
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And at the risk of being repetitive, does the officer have any obligation to offer his reasonably articulated suspicion at the scene of a traffic stop and if he elects to not offer it at that point does that make the stop invalid or his performance unprofessional?
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More good questions.
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Thanks, but oddly still no answers.
Hopefully he'll return and answer these and other unanwered questions...

The second set of questions, while we might look to a LEO for answers, it is important to find out how dwalker84 understands those points.
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42