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Old 02-26-2012, 17:10   #61
josey88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racer88 View Post
REALLY bad advice. Ask any attorney. An attorney will tell you to NEVER consent to a search. That's not to mention your 4th Amendment protections. You may THINK you have nothing to hide. But, the reality is that you might and just don't know about it. What if your teen-aged kid's friend tossed his "roach" in there (unbeknownst to you, of course). What if there's an empty beer can on the floorboard of the back seat (that you didn't know about)?

Never, ever, EVER consent to a search of your car, home, or person. Politely decline. No argument. Just politely decline. Once you consent, you cannot defend yourself with the 4th Amendment.

Likewise... Once you TALK, you cannot retroactively claim the 5th Amendment. "Anything you say CAN and WILL be used AGAINST you." Nothing you say can be used FOR you in court. It becomes "hearsay" if it's in your favor and will be disallowed in court.

IANAL.

Well, since I don`t have any kids and I am the only one that drives my car and I do know exactly what is and isn`t inside my car , trunk included , I don`t give a rat ass if the policeman wants to look into it , specially if that would allow me to go on my way without any problems . Remember that we are here (supposedly) dealing with a cop full of its ability of imposing problems on you , (at least temporarily ) so you want to create no further motives for this asshold to infringe on you .
I you said no , I don`t consent to a search , this guy would likely think that you have a heroin shipment on your trunk . I go back to my previous statement : don`t fight the fight that you know you are likely to loose ... try to obtain a witness (your girlfriend, in this particular case) and go to file a complain . Go to court , win the complain and the best of it is that it will stay on this guy`s record . With a few of those complains added to this same asshold , he will be in real trouble .
I know all of it about the 4th amendment , etc etc , but the street is full of people that make their main purpose to make life miserable for their fellow citizens , specially if one of those people has a police badge .
We all have had encounters with extremists ... I remember many years ago being stopped and given a ticket on my semi-rig (I was a professional truck/bus driver for 36 years) for 2 miles over the speed limit of 35 miles/hour. That happened in New Jersey . I remember telling the guy that he would likely get a commendation for such a heroic act ... but that was all I said . Took the ticket to court and explained that probable cause was the speedometer of the truck was not too accurate and I won . The judge ridiculized the cop for giving him work .
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Old 02-26-2012, 17:22   #62
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Originally Posted by pipedreams View Post

Wanting to place your legal firearm in the trunk was nothing but a ruse to get you to open the trunk. He could have unloaded the firearm and placed it in your backseat if he felt the need or just handed it to you at the end of contact.
Except that gives the officer permission to search the inside of your car. I'd refuse either location. I'm not opening ANY part of my car. It's up to the officer how he or she wants to proceed in returning my property. But, it won't be by opening any part of my vehicle.
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Old 02-26-2012, 17:32   #63
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Note: Some (most?) states alert the officer through their computer that the registered owner has a CCW. Still don't want to tell him up front?
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Old 02-26-2012, 17:34   #64
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Originally Posted by josey88 View Post
Well, since I don`t have any kids and I am the only one that drives my car and I do know exactly what is and isn`t inside my car , trunk included , I don`t give a rat ass if the policeman wants to look into it , specially if that would allow me to go on my way without any problems .
Actually it doesn't matter if you have kids. It was an example to prove that you DON'T know if you have "something to hide" or not. You may not give a rat's ass, but you are SURRENDERING your RIGHTS. And, you DON'T KNOW if it will "allow you to go on your way without any problems." An attorney would laugh at the notion. Never ever give up your Constitutional rights, no matter whether you THINK you have "nothing to hide."

Quote:
Remember that we are here (supposedly) dealing with a cop full of its ability of imposing problems on you , (at least temporarily ) so you want to create no further motives for this asshold to infringe on you .
I'm willing to assert my rights and get arrested... and then assert them again. It's a matter of principle and what's RIGHT. And, then I will also assert my ability to seek rightful compensation for those infringements.

Quote:
I you said no , I don`t consent to a search , this guy would likely think that you have a heroin shipment on your trunk .
Then you really don't understand the 4th Amendment. The officer MUST be able to PROVE reasonable suspicion / probable cause (to search without a warrant). I have absolutely no concern nor any control over what "this guy would likely think." He can think whatever he wants about me. He'll need to be able to back it up.


Quote:
I go back to my previous statement : don`t fight the fight that you know you are likely to loose ... try to obtain a witness (your girlfriend, in this particular case) and go to file a complain . Go to court , win the complain and the best of it is that it will stay on this guy`s record . With a few of those complains added to this same asshold , he will be in real trouble .
You will NOT be able to do that if and when the officer finds something incriminating and you GAVE PERMISSION for the search without a warrant. Now you're REALLY screwed. But, if I don't give permission, it's a fight they will LOSE (not loose).

Quote:
I know all of it about the 4th amendment , etc etc , but the street is full of people that make their main purpose to make life miserable for their fellow citizens , specially if one of those people has a police badge .
My hallucination is that you don't really know about the 4th Amendment. Or perhaps you're so convinced of your invincibility (and innocence - nothing to hide) that you're willing to gamble your freedoms away. I'm not... and I have absolutely nothing to hide... I'm as "clean" as they come. But, no way will I acquiesce to an officer's unlawful demands and surrender my rights voluntarily. But, I'm just weird that way.
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Old 02-26-2012, 17:35   #65
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Originally Posted by racer88 View Post
Except that gives the officer permission to search the inside of your car. I'd refuse either location. I'm not opening ANY part of my car. It's up to the officer how he or she wants to proceed in returning my property. But, it won't be by opening any part of my vehicle.
Your right and that is why the office should just hand it back to you rather than find a need to invade your space. Actually there was no reason to take the firearm in the first place.
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Old 02-26-2012, 17:36   #66
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Originally Posted by Jeff82 View Post
Note: Some (most?) states alert the officer through their computer that the registered owner has a CCW. Still don't want to tell him up front?
Not true in Florida. They have no idea about it. Our CCWs are not connected to our drivers license in any way. Totally separate departments.
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Old 02-26-2012, 17:38   #67
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Your right and that is why the office should just hand it back to you rather than find a need to invade your space. Actually there was no reason to take the firearm in the first place.
Agree there!
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Old 02-26-2012, 17:46   #68
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Originally Posted by Jeff82 View Post
Note: Some (most?) states alert the officer through their computer that the registered owner has a CCW. Still don't want to tell him up front?
Nope.
If I'm not required by law to disclose, I'm not going to disclose.
If I'm not breaking the law he can pound sand.
Shut up and write the ticket, I'll shut up and sign next to the X.
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Old 02-26-2012, 17:53   #69
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Nope.
If I'm not required by law to disclose, I'm not going to disclose.
If I'm not breaking the law he can pound sand.
Shut up and write the ticket, I'll shut up and sign next to the X.
Exactomundo. Nothing more. Nothing less. Keep it professional and polite on both sides. It's just business.
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Old 02-26-2012, 18:04   #70
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Originally Posted by josey88 View Post
Well, since I don`t have any kids and I am the only one that drives my car and I do know exactly what is and isn`t inside my car , trunk included , I don`t give a rat ass if the policeman wants to look into it , specially if that would allow me to go on my way without any problems . Remember that we are here (supposedly) dealing with a cop full of its ability of imposing problems on you , (at least temporarily ) so you want to create no further motives for this asshold to infringe on you .
I you said no , I don`t consent to a search , this guy would likely think that you have a heroin shipment on your trunk . I go back to my previous statement : don`t fight the fight that you know you are likely to loose ... try to obtain a witness (your girlfriend, in this particular case) and go to file a complain . Go to court , win the complain and the best of it is that it will stay on this guy`s record . With a few of those complains added to this same asshold , he will be in real trouble .
I know all of it about the 4th amendment , etc etc , but the street is full of people that make their main purpose to make life miserable for their fellow citizens , specially if one of those people has a police badge .
We all have had encounters with extremists ... I remember many years ago being stopped and given a ticket on my semi-rig (I was a professional truck/bus driver for 36 years) for 2 miles over the speed limit of 35 miles/hour. That happened in New Jersey . I remember telling the guy that he would likely get a commendation for such a heroic act ... but that was all I said . Took the ticket to court and explained that probable cause was the speedometer of the truck was not too accurate and I won . The judge ridiculized the cop for giving him work .
Folks, josey is correct. Despite his advanced years, clearly he is no longer capable of defending himself using the rights afforded to him. Or he has found no real use for those rights over the years and frankly has decided to abandon them. The rights are there but they don't protect you unless you protect them. If you don't know your own rights or don't know how to properly care for them or prevent their abuse, they simply won't work for you. It really might be the case that rights simply don't work for josey and he if something bad happens, he is simply a victim of circumstances or "whatever happens happens" or "God-willing" or that's how the chips fall, etc. Millions of people are exactly like that. It's no surprise.

So this might be the case with josey. He may not know how to handle himself when he contacts the police, he may only know how to "cooperate" and "tell the truth." Based on his paragraph, I think he is scared of the police and what they might do him if he "exercises" his right. Maybe he tried to "exercise" his rights once before and it came back to bite him....won't try that anymore. Rights don't come with a set of brass ones, you have to develop those on your own. Anytime someone says their "silence" might make the officer think you a criminal so you should go ahead and talk has either been watching too many movies or is too chicken **** to understand what America is all about.

His own statements appear to suggest he thinks he is perfect and "knows" everything and is totally in control of his surroundings and if that's truly the case, he doesn't need the rights and those rights weren't meant for him in the first place.

Honestly, the police love him.
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Old 02-26-2012, 18:28   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff82 View Post
Note: Some (most?) states alert the officer through their computer that the registered owner has a CCW. Still don't want to tell him up front?
Yes, I still wouldn't bring it up since it's not required by law.

I know that he knows, and he knows that I know that he knows.


So the fact that I have a CHP is not relevant to the expired registration, and neither are the contents of my trunk.

Just the routine paperwork, nothing more.
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Old 02-26-2012, 18:47   #72
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Originally Posted by kensteele View Post
Folks, josey is correct. Despite his advanced years, clearly he is no longer capable of defending himself using the rights afforded to him. Or he has found no real use for those rights over the years and frankly has decided to abandon them. The rights are there but they don't protect you unless you protect them. If you don't know your own rights or don't know how to properly care for them or prevent their abuse, they simply won't work for you. It really might be the case that rights simply don't work for josey and he if something bad happens, he is simply a victim of circumstances or "whatever happens happens" or "God-willing" or that's how the chips fall, etc. Millions of people are exactly like that. It's no surprise.

So this might be the case with josey. He may not know how to handle himself when he contacts the police, he may only know how to "cooperate" and "tell the truth." Based on his paragraph, I think he is scared of the police and what they might do him if he "exercises" his right. Maybe he tried to "exercise" his rights once before and it came back to bite him....won't try that anymore. Rights don't come with a set of brass ones, you have to develop those on your own. Anytime someone says their "silence" might make the officer think you a criminal so you should go ahead and talk has either been watching too many movies or is too chicken **** to understand what America is all about.

His own statements appear to suggest he thinks he is perfect and "knows" everything and is totally in control of his surroundings and if that's truly the case, he doesn't need the rights and those rights weren't meant for him in the first place.

Honestly, the police love him.
haha... what I was trying to say... admittedly trying to be more diplomatic. But, I like your blunt version better!
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Old 02-26-2012, 19:33   #73
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It would be interesting to know for how long the registration was expired. Also information on the area where the stop was made might be instructive.

I am also curious as to the general consensus as to whether or not the police have the authority to order someone out of an automobile during a traffic stop; that is presuming the officer merely ordered the driver out as opposed to physically removing him (and I'm guessing it is the former.) Actually the consensus seems clear, but I guess the better question is that consensus correct? If we had answers to these questions, perhaps we might be able to help decide better if the officer violated policy. If in fact he did not violate policy regarding the tactics of the stop was he rude? Did he curse?
If not, then maybe the correct response might be to attempt to further legislation that specifically prohibits officers from ordering someone out of a vehicle; of course there might be some issues that could arise from that, too.
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Old 02-26-2012, 19:36   #74
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It would be interesting to know for how long the registration was expired. Also information on the area where the stop was made might be instructive.

I am also curious as to the general consensus as to whether or not the police have the authority to order someone out of an automobile during a traffic stop; that is presuming the officer merely ordered the driver out as opposed to physically removing him (and I'm guessing it is the former.) Actually the consensus seems clear, but I guess the better question is that consensus correct? If we had answers to these questions, perhaps we might be able to help decide better if the officer violated policy. If in fact he did not violate policy regarding the tactics of the stop was he rude? Did he curse?
If not, then maybe the correct response might be to attempt to further legislation that specifically prohibits officers from ordering someone out of a vehicle; of course there might be some issues that could arise from that, too.
My understanding is that they can order you to exit the car. Prior to exiting the car is when I WOULD inform the officer of CCW.

But, you can close and lock the door behind you. They cannot search the car without a warrant or probable cause.

Last edited by racer88; 02-26-2012 at 19:42..
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Old 02-26-2012, 19:41   #75
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I am also curious as to the general consensus as to whether or not the police have the authority to order someone out of an automobile during a traffic stop; .
In my state an officer has can disarm you, for his own safety. You have to be out of the vehicle for this.

I was disarmed at a traffic stop, in the Texas Pan, once.

NM, TX, AZ, Co, seem to have similar laws.
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Old 02-26-2012, 20:57   #76
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What behavior would you report and why?
The belligerent and unprofessional attitude of the officer, according to the OP, the fact that he was ordered out of the car and then frisked. His weapon was removed. Just the general unprofessional behavior when there was no RAS... again, according to the OP.

Yes I know that one can be ordered out of the car, but there has to be a reason for this to take place. Can't say anything about the trunk search because the OP invited that by opening his trunk. He should have refused to do this just like he should have closed the windows and locked the car when he exited.

These complaints may not go farther than the call to his superior. But if this officer has this sort of attitude, you can bet it will happen again and if several more calls come in, his superior will hopefully see a pattern.
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Old 02-26-2012, 21:46   #77
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Why do people insist on borrowing trouble? Renew your tags, fix your broken tail lights, remove your illegal tint, and quit making excuses.
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:57   #78
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What behavior would you report and why?
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
The belligerent and unprofessional attitude of the officer, according to the OP, the fact that he was ordered out of the car and then frisked. His weapon was removed. Just the general unprofessional behavior when there was no RAS... again, according to the OP.

Yes I know that one can be ordered out of the car, but there has to be a reason for this to take place. Can't say anything about the trunk search because the OP invited that by opening his trunk. He should have refused to do this just like he should have closed the windows and locked the car when he exited.

These complaints may not go farther than the call to his superior. But if this officer has this sort of attitude, you can bet it will happen again and if several more calls come in, his superior will hopefully see a pattern.
Okay...
  • Belligerent behavior

  • General unprofessional attitude

  • Officer ordered him out of the car

  • Officer frisked him

  • Officer disarmed him
Anything else?

dwalker84, are you going to file a complaint?

Will you have your wife sign it also, as a witness?
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Old 02-27-2012, 06:58   #79
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Originally Posted by dwalker84 View Post
...
A Motorcycle officer got behind me and immediately threw on his lights.

... I did this as a courtesy, as I do every time - so the officer isn't surprised. ...
I got out of the car, with my hands at chest level, put my hands on the roof, spread my legs. ....]


I remain curious as to for how long the registration was expired. Rereading the original post, another question or three come to mind - any idea for how long the officer had been monitoring/watching you? You said he immediately threw on his lights - but any idea from where he came orwhere he first observed you? Should he have waited before he activated his lights?

How many other times have you been stopped?

Did the officer order you to put your hands on the roof and to spread your legs or did you do that on your own?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
The belligerent and unprofessional attitude of the officer, according to the OP, the fact that he was ordered out of the car and then frisked. His weapon was removed. Just the general unprofessional behavior when there was no RAS... again, according to the OP.

....
I am curious as to where we got to "belligerent?" Was he hostile or combative?

And at the risk of being repetitive, does the officer have any obligation to offer his reasonably articulated suspicion at the scene of a traffic stop and if he elects to not offer it at that point does that make the stop invalid or his performance unprofessional?
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Old 02-27-2012, 13:46   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce M View Post
I remain curious as to for how long the registration was expired. Rereading the original post, another question or three come to mind - any idea for how long the officer had been monitoring/watching you? You said he immediately threw on his lights - but any idea from where he came orwhere he first observed you? Should he have waited before he activated his lights?

How many other times have you been stopped?
Good questions.
Quote:
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Did the officer order you to put your hands on the roof and to spread your legs or did you do that on your own?
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Originally Posted by dwalker84 View Post
... he says "Okay!! Alright, get out of the car, right now!!" I never once made any movements that would have been construed as going for my gun, but this guy was on the aggressive from the start.

I got out of the car, with my hands at chest level, put my hands on the roof, spread my legs.
Looks like in the original post he initiated his actions.
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I am curious as to where we got to "belligerent?" Was he hostile or combative?
I believe "aggressive, aggravated and nervous" were the words dwalker84 used.
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Originally Posted by Bruce M View Post
And at the risk of being repetitive, does the officer have any obligation to offer his reasonably articulated suspicion at the scene of a traffic stop and if he elects to not offer it at that point does that make the stop invalid or his performance unprofessional?
More good questions.
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